https://i.redd.it/jxph5wn11qp01.png
So, this may be too janky, but I can't help imagining that there may be a build here (Legend Fit?). At the very least, it could help you power out a bunch of lands...
Printable View
https://i.redd.it/jxph5wn11qp01.png
So, this may be too janky, but I can't help imagining that there may be a build here (Legend Fit?). At the very least, it could help you power out a bunch of lands...
Nope, not gonna happen
Legendary creatures with few exceptions are unplayable in Legacy. Unless it beats Karakas, playing it is a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by ObligatoryReference
And in those decks that could play it you're probably better off running Genesis Wave. That at least puts all permanents on the battlefield that are X mana or less.
Fun fact: I ran it in my first Legacy tournament. I was on a very budget Elves! list, a long, long time ago. I made T8 with it :laugh:.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Technically could work with Nissa Vital Force or any walker.
Thou I think this card fails quite hard :eek:
Not sure if this qualifies as Nic Fit, but it does have Green Sun's Zenith and Atraxa: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18893&d=318344&f=LE
Plus, I've never met a toolbox deck I did not like.
You'll find more info here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Taramawn
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...radewind-Rider
Well, no Veteran Explorer and no Cabal Therapy pretty much means not Nic Fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taramawn
I'm just getting back into playing magic again after about a years hiatus. I have sneaky-fit build let me know your thoughts on the list
9x Fetches
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 badland
1 Tagia
7 basics: 3 forest 2 swamp 2 mountain
4 Sneak Attack
2 Sylvan Library
1 Collective Brutality (should probably be K command?)
1 Painful Truths
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic deluge
1 Diabolic Intent
3x Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tireless tracker
1 Interno Titan
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Rune Scared Demon
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Thragtusk
1Woodland bellower
4 Veteran Explorer
SB Yes I know it is 16 I need to drop 1 card in it
1 Deed
1 Nissa Vital Force
1 Reclimation Sage
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Golgari Charm
2 Lost legacy
1 Slaughter Games
2 REB
1 Nihil spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3x bloodmoon
Thanks
I played helm fit at the GENEVA LEGACY 11.
I did the classic 3-3 drop :frown:
The strange thing is how my match up went. I started to win againt ANT in 3 games, then I defeated painter in 2 games and lands in 2 games. I felt unbeatable!
Sadly I lost against grixis delver, Czech pile and finally infect in the following rounds.
Here's the list I played :
4 explorer
4 cabal therapy
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 leyline of the void
3 helm
1 carnage tyrant
3 tireless tracker
2 pernicious deed
2 abrupt decay
2 collective brutality
2 diabolic edict
2 crop rotation
2 inquisition of kozilek
1 nissa vital force
2 island
2 forest
2 swamps
2 bayou
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
1 creeping tar pit
side :
bojuka bog
academy ruins
engineered explosives
toxic deluge
golgari charm
maelstrom pulse
echoing truth
duress
inquisition of kozilek
hymn to tourach
collective brutality
2 carpet of flowers
city of solitude
obstinate baloth
I won 2 games with tyrant, 2 games with traker beats and the rest with helm.
Most underwhelming cards were inquisition maindeck and nissa. Crop did some work but was not as impressive as usual.
Tar pit need to be a dryad arbor, I missed being able to flashback cabal of a fetch and it would have won me a game where liliana edicted my lonesome tyranosaurus :frown:.
Splashing just for the cantrips was nice , never felt that the manabase was hurt, did some nice digging.
Hello again guys,
As GP Bologna comes around tradition says I should slam some Rhinos in Legacy. Last time went pretty good after all, going 5-3 overall in two events. This time I'll be playing in 2-4 side events with Rhino Fit and am looking for feedback on my list. Consider that I am very much on a budget so even though I know Duals are in order, they're out of range for what I can afford. I am looking to optimize the list against Death and Taxes and midrange decks, forfeiting equity against combo.
So far my list is as follows, with a few open slots:
Quote:
Creatures 17-18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Siege Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
[1-2 open slots]
Noncreature Spells 20-21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Abzan Charm
1 Nissa, Vital Force
[2-3 open slots]
Lands 22
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
I'm looking to fill the open slots, and have about 50-100$ to throw into the deck, so I'm looking to get the best possible return for my money. Some of the things I'm considering are:Quote:
Sideboard 15
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Duress
2 Lost Legacy
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
[3 open slots]
So, with these considerations, what would you suggest for the open slots, or even possible changes to the list? What should I prioritize in purchases?Quote:
Abrupt Decay
Anafenza, the Foremost
Ramunap Excavator
Tireless Tracker
Toxic Deluge
Phyrexian Tower
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Kaya, Ghost Assasin
Damping Orb
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Karn, Scion of Urza
Well, let's start with this. Speed is important. I'd replace Thragtusk w/ Siege Rhino #4, Reclamation Sage w/ Qasali Pridemage, Abzan Charm w/ Path to Exile #4 and Vindicate w/ Toxic Deluge. As for your free creature slots, add another DRS and Meren of Clan Nel Toth (b/c drawing an extra card each turn is pretty damn good). Concerning your manabase: Ghost Quarter has no place in this deck. If you can, try to go for Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanosIs
As a general point on manabases in Junk Fit, try to get to a place where you have 14 initial manasources for each of your colours (so 14 ways to get a green mana on T1, 14 for black and 14 for white. These obviously overlap. W/ the right duals, fetchlands count towards 1 each and so on). The last thing you want is to lose games to manascrew
You might also want to look into Mirri's Guile. It's slowly getting a little bit more acceptance as decent card (and way of keeping your card velocity up).
Lastly, the sideboard. Swap a Surgical Extraction for Lost Legacy #3, since it's a blowout to a lot of bad MUs. Replace the 2 Carpet of Flowers for 2 Ethersworn Canonist (which is a card that actually does something) and Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg (b/c you really need all the help you can get vs. fast combo).
As for things to get, looking at my suggestions and reflecting on my own list, I'd prioritize as follows:
1: 1 or 2 copies of Phyrexian Tower (closely followed by a copy of Volrath's Stronghold, mind you)
2: 1 or 2 copies of Toxic Deluge
3: 3 copies of Tireless Tracker
Abrupt Decay might deserve a honorable mention, but that's about it. Leovold is risky when just on Junk and the other cards are often considered just not good enough (even though they might get close and still see some play from time to time).
Hope that helped!
First of all, thanks for the elaborate response. I'll try to discuss reasoning for some of the proposed changes.
Thragtusk -> Siege Rhino: A relic of the list running Kaya, Ghost Assassin in the mainboard, as Thragtusk is the best target for Kaya value. The change makes a lot of sense when you throw Kaya out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Reclamation Sage -> Quasali Pridemage: Same situation as above, but here I can also see exalted being quite useful to help Rhinos punch through the various 5/5s of the format.
Abzan Charm -> Path to Exile: I'm thinking about this, but I enjoyed the flexibility of Charm and as an oneoff being able to act as removal/combat trick/draw all at instant speed.
Vindicate -> Toxic Deluge: If I go down the Vindicate I would certainly look to run some Abrupt Decays in the maindeck, as being able to deal with equipment out of D&D is quite important.
The idea on Ghost Quarter is to punish the extremely greedy no-basic manabases running around in the format, but with recent developments in the top tier decks, I agree it should probably go. Phyrexian Tower is one of the cards I've been looking to get anyways so that will be an easy swap-in and help the mana as well.
Mirri's Guile is indeed appealing, we have a lot of shuffle effects and the difference between CMC 1 and CMC 2 for Library is huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Good suggestions all around, although Canonist is not something I'd look to run, maybe some additional discard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I own Trackers and Decays. Would you run any of those in the main? Probably my first purchase is Phyrexian Tower along with Meren of Clan Nel Toth, although I don't know if I can fit Stronghold into the budget, should have gotten one when it was still cheap is the story of Magic: The Gathering.Quote:
Snip.
Overall:
-1 Thragtusk +1 Rhino
-1 Reclamation Sage +1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Vindicate +1 Toxic Deluge
-2 Ghost Quarter +2 Phyrexian Tower
+1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
+2 Abrupt Decay
MD Trackers yes, probably 2 or so. MD Abrupt Decay not so much, especially when runn QPM + Meren.
Would you go with 2 Trackers and 2 Deathrites? Or is it better to go for 1 Tracker and 3 Deathrites? I was running 3 Trackers last year and they seemed too slow, but 2 might be the correct number, as in grindy matchups you really want one to stick, so having two to find with Zenith is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Even with Pridemage and Meren I think we want some amount of Decay, especially if Vindicate is out, there are plenty of noncreatures to take care off and Decay is very versatile. I'd for sure run at least one, maybe two.
Well, I solved it like this:
Main (60)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
The plan is to go toe to toe with the blue decks during the early game (hence the large quantity of card selection), stabilize and then overpower them by burying them under cards and incremental pressure. It's relatively quick, nimble and persistant as hell. I understand it doesn't fit your budget, but I'm just trying to give an impression. Do know that being relatively low on removal and several other of my card choices are not conform the popular choice. Most lists tend to skim on the number of Guiles/Libraries and creatures in order to run more removal. Also, most lists go for a higher (or wider) top-end (so a few more 5-drops and possibly even a 6-drop).
As far as the manabase is concerned, the fetchlands are the most important part. They ensure you get to power out as many basics as possible. Then Phyrexian Tower & a Stronghold, and only then the duals. Bayou first (unfortunately), Savannah second and Scrubland last.
Deed and QPM already give you plenty of noncreature hate. If you're worried about planeswalkers, you probably want Maelstrom Pulse or To The Slaughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanosIs
I actually like this list quite a lot. And the only things that don't fit the budget are the duals/fetches. How has the Courser been performing? And also, aren't multiple Mirri's Guiles/Libraries dead draws after the first one? I understand that you want to fight the card quality game, but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Guile triggers for each one in play. You could look at top 3 then fetch then look at top 3.
Plus, sometimes you play one into a counter or blow one up to Deed. Besides, you can always shuffle multiples away if they're on top of your library.
Courser is fine, have been running one for a long time now. Is great when you get it out vs. Burn, fine in fair MUs and crap vs. combo. Decent vs. Elves! though.
Going back a few pages, I want to bring up a discussion we had a couple months ago.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1034448
As a quick refresher, the basic idea is that we could rate cards as good or bad in our deck based on what they interact with, or what they don't interact with.
A similar discussion is being had on MTGS right now for some Modern ratings, and I took the opportunity to use the discussion alongside some free time I had to try a test run of this system.
Essentially, the way it works is that each card is rated against each other card through a series of rules, the card in the column is rated by the card in the row, and at their intersection point in the grid we rate 1, 0, or -1 (still not sure on the -1). A 1 indicates the card matches up favorably according to the rules and a 0 means it doesn't.
For this test case I took the current top 40 most played cards in Modern and excluded the lands. That left me with 21 cards, which is 441 pieces of data. It took an average of 8 seconds per card to manually rate these (which is partially why I would like to build an automated system to do it).
My notes on this weren't the most legible but here's the copy/paste of the rules I used
Ratings rate first cast of each spell, at earliest opportunity.
Creatures:
Successfully fights (trades in combat, bounces in combat, wins in combat... does not die for nothing)
Edge cases - Fight exception If CA is gained (Wall of Omens example), variable p/t (ooze, goyf, etc) given arbitrary values, I'm using 4/5 goyf, 4/4 ooze
Removal:
Kills at target CMC+1 or less. (Terminate passes vs Birds of Paradise, Hero's Downfall does not)
Corner cases – Delve fails vs CMC of 1. Delve creatures assumed to fully delve, conditional enablers (metalcraft, revolt, etc) always assumed on. Must trade for full card (Electrolyze passes Lingering Souls, beats one side and draws another, Kolaghan's Command does not, fatal push loses to BBE), treat counterspells as removal
Discard:
Opponents choice discard never beats a card
Player choice discard must within choice cmc+1
Trading:
Use traditional CA counts, draw = +1, discard = -1, pass if parity or better (Cryptic Command hits parity against BBE, so it passes). Edge case, 2 for 1 passes at mana+3 vs mana +1. Additional cards gained such as 3 for 1 pass at mana +2 for each additional card.
Planeswalker:
May evaluate all modes usable on ETB, if any usable mode passes vs a given card, the card passes
No interaction:
If no interaction between cards (Vial vs Lighting Bolt), result is a -1.
So what people are probably wondering is... why mention all this Modern stuff on a thread for a Legacy deck? And my answer to that is that I want to build something similar for Nic Fit, or perhaps the format as a whole. But, in order to get it right, it's important to make a proper rating system. Such a rating system needs to not be subjective, and follow clearly defined rules so that everyone gets the same results when rating cards.
Here's the initial results I got
Raw scores
https://imgur.com/a/ItrujFZ
No -1's
https://imgur.com/a/xBiPzah
From this initial set of results, I've found that my ruleset is currently incomplete. The biggest question is what the proper rating is for two cards that totally ignore each other like Aether Vial vs Lightning Bolt. It seems incorrect to me to label that as an unfavorable interaction, so I was using -1 essentially as a null value. Introducing three values to the system: good, bad, and none. But I can also see an argument to rate with two values: good and other than good.
The other issue is that cards need to follow different rule sets based on the objective of a card. So a card would need to be rated both offensively and defensively under separate rules. What I'm coming up with so far is that cards need to be categorized as threat (wins the game), answer (stops opponent from winning), or enabler (makes another card more effective). Can anyone think of something that wouldn't fall into one of those three categories?
Well, for starters I think you'll want to order the scores differently. 1 for Beats it, 0 for Don't care and -1 for Loses to it. You're using the total score as a way to differentiate between cards, so the highest score should be the one that wins in the highest number of cases and the one at the bottom should fare worst against the field.
As for objectives based rules, this is a tricky one. You're probably better off evaluating cards with a certain purpose (like finishing out a game) and figure out how they shape up vs. the various answers the format offers and other game finishers they might face. This way you can at least come up with a sensible answer for a specific group of cards and have a clear objective for the rules set. I mean, having the evaluate Aether Vial vs. Lightning Bolt is kinda silly.
Oh, and you'll have to weigh the different portions of the evaluation. Otherwise you might end up evaluating your card vs. 10 answers and 40 different game finishers, diminishing the value of not being affected by removal. Value of resilience vs. answers should probably be around 50 to 60% of your total. Also, I can see being able to outrace/answer a hard to answer threat could net more point than outracing/answering an easier to answer threat.
Although evaluating cards this way will probably put DRS somewhere at the bottom (it's small, a slow clock and dies and loses out to everything and their mother) whilst people are screaming for bans. :laugh:
Off topic, I know, but to clarify, are you saying you personally don't believe DRS to be a reasonable card to ban in legacy, or are you being specific in the context of your +/- excercise only?
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
I'm firmly against a DRS ban. It's a 1 mana creature that dies to everything, deal with it. It only thrives b/c the format keeps inbreeding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
The evaluation on DRS has nothing to do with why I'm against banning it, by the way. Without DRS 4C decks just move to the next worst offender.
The problem though is that unless you make it a manual process, at some point you have to answer Aether Vial vs Lightning Bolt. The end goal would be to copy/paste complete oracle text and parse it. Not have to tune to a small number of cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think DRS would rate highly, if the rules are written well, then they should confirm that good cards are good.
I disagree, DRS should eat a ban because of what it does to base blue/black decks. That's the offense in my opinion, nothing to do with GY utility and everything to do with the fact that Underground Sea casts a mana dork.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
@ echelon : no love for collective brutality in rhino list ? It is the one nic fit variant where the reach mode is the most useful.
Nope, velocity is too low and most modes are too ineffective. I've tried it, but found it falling short too often for my taste.
Just realized I never answered this part, beating a card is obvious, but non interactivity is a whole other thing you can build for. Cards which the opponents answers don't necessarily beat, but rather where they have no interaction at all is something useful. So depending on your goal, you can be wanting to sort either high and see an interactive card that beats the answers, or sort low and find a card that blanks the opponents hand... both serve the same overall purpose. It's cards that score a zero that are bad, but you also don't want a 1 and -1 to cancel each other out, nor do you want a 1 and -1 to add together as in an absolute value, because that's not accurate either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Just use a datastructure to store how many times each case occurs, that'll let you differentiate as you desire. On a sidenote, you probably don't care about Loses to (since that'll be the inverse of Beats). Just store Beats & Ignores and you're there.
Does explain why Manaless Dredge can be a thing - very little Beats, lots of Ignores.
Loses and beats are not inverses. Two cards can beat each other or lose to each other. Goyf loses to Goyf in the threat category, Goyf beats Goyf in the answer category, in a general case Inquisition and Thoughtseize both beat each other, one beating the other doesn't make the other lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
In that case just track all separately
I think Brutality is fine, but you want to leverage discarding those cards for some gain. Ex. Fires builds, Lingering Souls, Loams, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Like, if you were running a Jund build with Recurring Nightmare and Fires, I'd be sold on a few Brutalities to couple with some K. Commands.
-Matt
I agree with you there, but most Junk lists typically don't run those cards (and discarding Therapy usually is something I don't want to do).Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Jund is a very different beast though, there you can have the P. Fires.
Also, have you joined the discord yet?
What discord? Do explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
https://discord.gg/nQQ5V59Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
That's why it's been so quiet here :wink:
I've given up on Depths for a little while and I need a new deck to dig into. Anyone playing a junk-fit list I could use for reference? I'm thinking about doing a Siege Rhino list, but anything junk colored would be great as I have the lands for it. All I need is 2x GSZ and i've got the rest.
A few people have been looking at and playing with my list. Here it is:
Main (60)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
A bit unorthodox, but very well streamlined.
I took a shot at a list and it ended up very close. Thank you! I am definitely interested in the 4 rhino plan.
Edit: is there any merit to Sigarda, Heron's Grace? It provides hexproof and can generate tokens.
Glad I could help!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety