All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I got paired against Maverick, which I think is a bad matchup for Stoneblade. I ended up winning the match 2-0. How did it happen?

My opponent had reasonable hands and played well to the best that I could tell from the other side. I was definitely on
the ropes in several spots. But throughout the match I cast infinite cantrips (hiding fetchable lands and Equipments and shuffling them away like a skillful Blue player) and always found the timely land, the timely Wear/Tear, the timely Supreme Verdict, the timely True-Name Nemesis. There were cards my opponent could have that would mean trouble for me. But he could only hope to draw them naturally, without the assistance of Skillstorm and Pondurdle.

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I don't understand this. First you are saying this is a Bad match up for you, but next you are saying the opponiert would have needed to get Lucky draws to beat you? How can those statements both be true?

There are two possibilities here:

1. You got even better draws and or played even more skillfully.
2. Maverick is not actually a favourite vs your deck.

Either way, this is not much of a story.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

While I'm not advocating a particular ban, it is definitely interesting to imagine a Legacy format where you couldn't build the kind of deck I played.

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It's always interesting to imagine a hypothetisch meta with diffefent cardpool.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I'd like to think that right now we are at a point where the format has adapted to discourage this kind of deckbuilding with Chalice, Counter-Top, Thalia, etc.

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There are still good decks that run cantrips, but these decks are not as collectively dominant as they were in the past. The tier one (imo) decks running cantrips are Miracles, Infect, Shardless, and Pyromancer. The Tier one decks thriving without cantrips are Lands, D&T, Eldrazi, and Aggro Loam.

I've left out combo decks. I think the best combo decks currently are S&T (not sure which version) and Reanimator. While these both run cantrips, I'm not sure if either are tier one. On a related note, the BR Reanimator deck (no cantrips) is currently classed as a DTB. Is this as mistake (I did not think that section was due for an update yet)?

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I guess all I'm really saying is "yup, cantrips are stupidly good". While I'm not advocating a particular ban, it is definitely interesting to imagine a Legacy format where you couldn't build the kind of deck I played. I'd like to think that right now we are at a point where the format has adapted to discourage this kind of deckbuilding with Chalice, Counter-Top, Thalia, etc.

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There is nothing stopping your opponent from playing Oath of Nissa, SDT, Mirri's Guile, or Sylvan Library to name a few. Green also has plenty of ways to tutor out creatures. The only thing that happens in a format without cantrips is that the next best ones don't pitch to FoW; so linear combo all the time and Eldrazi decks (indeed a format where you can't even play Maverick).

I would also probably wouldn't use Shardless, Blade variants, or miracles as model organisms for analyzing the power of Brainstorm/cantrips. These decks have a penchant for hellbent cantripping, firing them into perfectly known info atop library with no intent of shuffling, searching for cards which are designed solely to drag games out, and only rarely correcting hands. Decks that actively want to draw and play all the lands they can largely defeat the real point of playing cantrips; they use them because when your game plan is to vomit lands [self-induced hand destruction], sometimes you need to find a best way to tap them. These decks primarily want card volume over virtual advantage (hand sculpting).

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Originally Posted by Fox

There is nothing stopping your opponent from playing Oath of Nissa, SDT, Mirri's Guile, or Sylvan Library to name a few. Green also has plenty of ways to tutor out creatures. The only thing that happens in a format without cantrips is that the next best ones don't pitch to FoW; so linear combo all the time and Eldrazi decks (indeed a format where you can't even play Maverick).

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I don't think the format degenerates into linear combo all the time in a world without cantrips (by which I specifically mean Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain). It becomes less 'free' to build decks with 20-24 blue cards for Force, but Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand, and Impulse are still legal and all have long histories of supporting land-light decks. The construction of blue aggro-control and tempo decks probably shifts somewhat to accomodate lower powered cantrips, but I don't see the dystopian 'all Belcher all the time' future that some people do. Hymn and Thoughtseize, for instance, get a lot better, and you can still build Force-friendly blue decks.

EDIT: It's also hard to see Eldrazi getting better in a world where 1 CMC spells get worse.

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I would also probably wouldn't use Shardless, Blade variants, or miracles as model organisms for analyzing the power of Brainstorm/cantrips. These decks have a penchant for hellbent cantripping, firing them into perfectly known info atop library with no intent of shuffling, searching for cards which are designed solely to drag games out, and only rarely correcting hands. Decks that actively want to draw and play all the lands they can largely defeat the real point of playing cantrips; they use them because when your game plan is to vomit lands [self-induced hand destruction], sometimes you need to find a best way to tap them. These decks primarily want card volume over virtual advantage (hand sculpting).

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I'm not totally on board with this assessment. Midrange and Control decks use cantrips to run more compact manabases the same way that Delver decks do, they just want to hit more land drops. Hellbent Brainstorming with those decks is often just as weak a play as it is with Delver, they just end up sending back conditional cards like lategame Spell Pierces, discard, redundant Planeswalkers, Wastelands, or removal rather than normal lands. Card volume matters, but that's as much about maximizing the cantrips as anything.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I've left out combo decks. I think the best combo decks currently are S&T (not sure which version) and Reanimator. While these both run cantrips, I'm not sure if either are tier one. On a related note, the BR Reanimator deck (no cantrips) is currently classed as a DTB. Is this as mistake (I did not think that section was due for an update yet)?

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I'd say they're both tier one (more than Eldrazi, even), but even BR Reanimator runs filtering, it's just that it's a corner case where looting is an enabler for their combo so they run it over 'normal' cantrips.

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Originally Posted by btm10

but even BR Reanimator runs filtering, it's just that it's a corner case where looting is an enabler for their combo so they run it over 'normal' cantrips.

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And Maverick runs GSZ and sometimes Library. Everything runs something for card selection except D&T and Eldrazi I think (as well as less common aggro decks like Burn and Merfolk).

I was talking about blue cantrips in specific because some people have had an issue with their abundant presence in the meta. I'm saying right now about five tier one decks are on a different plan.

@btm10 I would probably run Opt and Portent before running any modern cantrips. Impulse is ok, but at 2 mana you're running into some competition (though often at sorc speed) especially in Ux (usually UB) such as Baleful Strix and perhaps even cards like Diabolic Vision...there is also probably a case to be made (without Brainstorm) that Lat-Nam's Legacy is better than Impulse maintaining instant speed, anti-discard qualities, and hand correction. SDT especially would see more widespread play given the need to preempt bad cards from reaching the hand.

I think you're really asking a lot though for a format to regulate itself with FoW without Ponder/BS/Preordain; when FoW goes down, linear combo goes up and then you really need uninteractive cards like Chalice (hence Eldrazi). FoW decks become less competitive and being better against Chalice on 1 because you're playing worse cards doesn't change that arithmetic. You also probably get into buyout trouble if Tezz is theoretically becoming the more viable blue deck (City, Tomb, Mox, Abyss, Void, Transmute were all hit by the price spikes) with Delver becoming a less playable card and the new 4c Delver decks (or 4c doesn't have Delver, but it's still basically the same list) becoming unsustainable. So again, if you can't rely on FoW to keep out linear combo you're on the Chalice plan and there is only one best Chalice deck [Eldrazi].

On cantrips, if you're not on a tempo plan or gaining value by the combination of multiple cards together (in-hand at the same time), then you're probably on the land-dropping into play JTMS plan (card volume), where card selection is really only used to get to that point. Cantrips used to find underwhelming cards but in the right sequence towards goal of inevitability is very different from using them to assemble consistent sequences that win games before an opponent can accomplish whatever they're up to.

Lmao @ comparing Sylvan Library or Oath of Nissa or even Imperial Recruiter with Brainstorm or Ponder.

The math has been done many times before. If 1 CMC cantrips were banned belcher would not overrun the format. We have established this long ago. If you're on the draw and belcher turn 1's you, you weren't casting that brainstorm to find force either way

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Lmao @ comparing Sylvan Library or Oath of Nissa or even Imperial Recruiter with Brainstorm or Ponder.

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No one is comparing them to those cards, the question is what is next in line behind BS/Ponder/Preordain? Is the answer still blue or does FoW presence appreciably suffer? Moreover, in the example of Blade deck vs maverick and the musings that concerned that matchup, there is nothing stopping maverick from using green cantrip variants. They have the option to [green] cantrip or not, and they choose not to - either maverick pilots everywhere don't know what they're doing, or they realize that raw power translates to more wins by eschewing deck manipulation (outside of SFM, GSZ, and/or KotR).

@Megadeus without BS/Ponder, many blue centric wincons aren't really competitive. Delver is appreciably worse and you have to play other cards in those 8 slots - that's not necessarily going to be 12 swaps staying blue for FoW. A lot of these pilots who dislike cantrips are glossing over the fact that their deck is likely not playable without other players sleeving up FoW and regulating the format.

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Originally Posted by Fox

@Megadeus without BS/Ponder, many blue centric wincons aren't really competitive. Delver is appreciably worse and you have to play other cards in those 8 slots - that's not necessarily going to be 12 swaps staying blue for FoW. A lot of these pilots who dislike cantrips are glossing over the fact that their deck is likely not playable without other players sleeving up FoW and regulating the format.

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For the record: I don't think Brainstorm(or Ponder) should be banned.

I do think you're collapsing two broad categories of combo together to make your point, though. Delver (or other fast aggro-control) decks are needed to keep resilient combo decks like Storm and Show and Tell in check, but the true glass cannons of the format are adequately kept in check by more controlling Force of Will decks, and those decks will be viable in any equilibrium metagame (using Frank Karsten's definition) simply by virtue of having an edge against the glass cannon boogeyman decks (with the provisio that the equilibrium metagame still has enough extremely fast combo decks in it to police the excessively fair decks that prey on the Force of Will decks). The resilient combo decks are actully less threatening in an cantrip-free world since they're less capable of rebuilding quickly, so Delver (the card) becomes less important to that metagame's health. And this is still totally ignoring the fact that Delver decks would probably still be viable. Regardless of the specific cantrips a Delver deck would run in that format the incentives to play some kind of aggro-Xerox deck would almost assuredly still exist.

Maverick is unable to run those terrible cantrips that are far worse options. Library is powerful but costs more mana and must survive a turn to have any effect at all in a format where there are many decks with Decay. Guile same thing, needs to survive a turn to have any effect and is card disadvantage. Oath of Nissa has to be built around because it cannot get instants or sorceries and therefore you are very restricted in deck building. That's not even mentioning all of the dumb delve shit the blue cantrips fuel. Ponder gets anything so there's 0 build around other than fetches which aren't exactly hard includes. Brainstorm is the same way except it also gets to immediately draw three, put back the cards in your hand that are currently useless, and shuffle them away, or in miracles case get not only to draw three but have the upside of being a 5 mana ritual to help cast their 1 mana wrath effect as well as having the ability to simply nullify the effects of an opposing discard spell.

Lets ban Brainstorm & Ponder so we can play Eldrazi/Shardless vs Shardless/Eldrazi all day #GreatFormat #Diversity

Ponder can stay ;)

Ponder is still the best cantrip in the format sans brainstorm. But I'd be fine with it as the most played card in the format. It doesn't get to put miracles back on top, hide cards from discard, it's not instant speed, and it can't unmulligan you by drawing lands and replacing the spells or vice versa like brainstorm can.

Legacy as a format would be much less fun without card manipulation. While my views on the card Brainstorm are not a secret, I feel overzealous prosecution of cantrips would be detrimental.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Legacy as a format would be much less fun without card manipulation. While my views on the card Brainstorm are not a secret, I feel overzealous prosecution of cantrips would be detrimental.

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Agreed. It's why I really think Survival and Goblin Recruiter deserve to be unbanned even though those cards are still worse than Brainstorm and Ponder - it would give almost every deck a reason to exist because presently the only reason to not play Blue and to not play DnT is because you like the deck.

The viewpoint that 'Deck XXXXX' should remain or not remain competitive is a myopic view of eternal. Whether "Delver, The Deck" remains viable if a card is banned isn't a ban criteria. There is a card pool. From that card pool you build decks. This delineation seems to put many people on either side of the ban this or unban that fence.

I just see a card pool. I see 3-4 cards that are banned that are undoubtedly worse than 8-10 cards that are currently legal in the card pool.

Brainstorm
Ponder
Show and Tell (and by extension the new era Derp Targets that make the game a joke Griselbrand, Emrakul)
Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual
Gaea's Cradle
Delver
Sensei's Divining Top
Thoughtseize

are all better than some of the following

Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Survival of the Fittest
Honestly ... with Show and Tell and Griselbrand around let's unban Hermit Druid ... it's worse.

Let's start unbanning a turd release by release, once 2-3 of them are unbanned and we still have GP Chiba / Kyoto / Paris style results then let's ban the ridiculous cards that make the format a 71 card deck building exercise.

The formats premier event this year was honestly fucking embarrassing.

https://youtu.be/_n0SWKxrJJo?t=256

#inb4banisland #goplaymodern #pillaroftheformat #yousuck #banfetches #skillintensives

Edit: #somenonsenseaboutvintage

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

are all better than some of the following

Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Survival of the Fittest
Honestly ... with Show and Tell and Griselbrand around let's unban Hermit Druid ... it's worse.

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I agree with everything on that list except Mind Twist, I really don't want to play in a format where Elves can dump their resources into turn-2 fill up the board, Mind Twist you for 4+, and rebuild their own hand with Glimpse/Visionary. That WILL happen if Mind Twist comes off.

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Originally Posted by Zombiesquisher

I agree with everything on that list except Mind Twist, I really don't want to play in a format where Elves can dump their resources into turn-2 fill up the board, Mind Twist you for 4+, and rebuild their own hand with Glimpse/Visionary. That WILL happen if Mind Twist comes off.

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Show and Tell griselbrand. Nice mind Twist asshole

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Originally Posted by Zombiesquisher

I agree with everything on that list except Mind Twist, I really don't want to play in a format where Elves can dump their resources into turn-2 fill up the board, Mind Twist you for 4+, and rebuild their own hand with Glimpse/Visionary. That WILL happen if Mind Twist comes off.

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Wouldn't they prefer to just derp a Craterhoof into play instead? Given the option of winning or masturbating around with some big ol twisties, it seems like winning would be the better option. If they have Force for NO they're going to force the Mind Twist anyway so you end up in the same spot. And if you have 83 elves in play, approximately a million mana available to you and NO and Twist in hand, you were going to win the game anyway. Twist and the other cards Nedleeds posted are legitimately laughable compared to what is legal now. Especially ma boi Recruiter. Apparently being too OP in 2001 is a good indication that it should remain banned in 2017 :confused:

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Originally Posted by Zombiesquisher

I agree with everything on that list except Mind Twist, I really don't want to play in a format where Elves can dump their resources into turn-2 fill up the board, Mind Twist you for 4+, and rebuild their own hand with Glimpse/Visionary. That WILL happen if Mind Twist comes off.

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Better than casting Natural Order and just winning in my book.

Edit: should refresh the page