All B/R update speculation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

I'm not sure if that whole comment isn't sarcastic.

---

Not at all. Look at what Wizards has been doing, according to your own post:

(1) Increasing power level of cards in Standard, the point where they have to ban cards;
(2) Came up with Masterpieces to reprint older and powerful cards;
(3) Pushing out lots of sets quickly, several of which are reprints or straight-to-Eternal.

All of this is hugely positive if you play Vintage and Legacy. A card that is playable in Eternal formats is often -- not always, but often -- format warping for Standard. Kudos to them for getting aggressive about printing more cards that might reach this threshold. Masterpieces? An amazing solution for getting more non RL cards a reprint without tanking prices. More sets? More new cards.

I have no idea whether the player community writ large likes this or not, but I know I do, and if you want a healthy and diverse Legacy, supported by new decks, new cards, and lower prices, you should, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cire

I don't follow standard much, but what was (or is the presumed) rationale for the standard bans? Troll and Probe is for dredge and infect, but were they so overpworing in Modern?

---

It's in the article, brah. They said Dredge got too good with Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam and that Probe is just too good at what it does, giving perfect information for free.

I actually kinda wonder why Legacy hasn't tested Thopter, given its supergood in Affinity, can be cast off Ancient Tomb and works great with Noble Hierarch. I mean, most non-blue decks get a pseudo-delver with a cardselection mechanic attached. Can't be THAT bad.

Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MaximumC

I have no idea whether the player community writ large likes this or not, but I know I do, and if you want a healthy and diverse Legacy, supported by new decks, new cards, and lower prices, you should, too.

---

Legacys price barriers stay linked to Duals and other RL cards. Moreover, every new Eternal revelant printing sees immediate price speculation these days. Just take a look at Leovold or the new, black removal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cire

I don't follow standard much, but what was (or is the presumed) rationale for the standard bans?

---

Money. Those are some of the main culprits why Standard is ill-received right now. Attendance seems to have significantly dropped by now.

As for Modern, Dredge and Infect were probably the two topdecks of the format by a fair margin. So GGT has to go. Probe fuels a bunch of combo decks like Infect, Death's Shadow, etc. that are way too fast for Wizards 4-turn kill format.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

I actually kinda wonder why Legacy hasn't tested Thopter, given its supergood in Affinity, can be cast off Ancient Tomb and works great with Noble Hierarch. I mean, most non-blue decks get a pseudo-delver with a cardselection mechanic attached. Can't be THAT bad.

---

I think it's a sleeper. I could easily see it having applications in e.g. Eldrazi or D&T. I would probably test it if I had more time (and if Miracles didn't kill any desire for me to play Legacy as long as it's around).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

I think it's a sleeper. I could easily see it having applications in e.g. Eldrazi or D&T. I would probably test it if I had more time (and if Miracles didn't kill any desire for me to play Legacy as long as it's around).

---

Dito. No time and nerves to do any testing for any deck atm. (Kinda) having to play Show&Derp currently, isn't making me fond of Legacy overall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

I actually kinda wonder why Legacy hasn't tested Thopter, given its supergood in Affinity, can be cast off Ancient Tomb and works great with Noble Hierarch. I mean, most non-blue decks get a pseudo-delver with a cardselection mechanic attached. Can't be THAT bad.

---

You mean Smuggler's Copter? It seems decent but it just makes spot removal that much more effective/efficient/"VALUE" since without an actual creature to crew, the Copter does nothing. Also, how does it work great with Hierarch? Hierarch is an 0/1 and Copter needs a ≥1 power creature to work.

My Opinions on the Matter:

Standard- It doesnt take a genius to realize that there is something wrong with this format, and WotC did the right thing in slowing down rotation, but bannings like this wont help, what they need to do is start making cards more balanced like they used to.

Modern- I am glad they addressed Dredge, but am very disappointed about the Gitaxian Probe ban, I think this was even more unnecessary than the Splinter Twin ban. Also disappointed at the lack of unbans, which should always have priority over bans in my opinion.

Legacy- Glad they didn't ban anything, but Goblin Recruiter,Mind Twist,and Earthcraft have got to come off.

Overall I dont like how WotC is handling the banlists. They clearly need better people on the job and more banlist updates isnt going to help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

since without an actual creature to crew, the Copter does nothing.

---

Just about as dead as Jitte is without creatures. That's a terrible argument. Noble Hierarch is a fringe case, and decks like D&T or Eldrazi where Copter might be good don't even play it. The main argument one can make for equipment over vehicles is that Terminus hits both instead of just the creature. But fuck Terminus in particular.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

I actually kinda wonder why Legacy hasn't tested Thopterl

---

In my local meta, people have been playing Thopter as a value-creature in Stoneblade decks for a while now. Every time I see it, it looks quite good.

Doesn't change the fact that they are playing Stoneblade in the first place though :eyebrow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

Doesn't change the fact that they are playing Stoneblade in the first place though :eyebrow:

---

Remember that Reid Duke just won the GP with "Sultai Bladeless Stoneblade". :wink:

He made the very good decision to drop SFM. Outside of D&T, it has no place in Legacy anymore; it actually hasn't had a place for almost 1.5 years now. I remember talking to Philipp about it at MKM Prag 2015 and we both wondered why you would still play that card.

Fun thing: the company behind the "Epic Card Game" is offering free starter sets for anyone who sends in their Emrakul or Smuggler's Copter :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

IIRC, the last time there were three bans in Standard, it wasn't called Standard. And that block was a much bigger disaster than this one could possibly be.

---

I'm not sure if you're referring to Mirrodin or Urza's Saga block (I suppose the statement of being "a much bigger disaster" holds for either, though). But for the record, I did go back and find the text of the announcements for both, and they refer to the format as Standard.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...e/dci20050301a
^Affinity bannings

http://members.tripod.com/blue_midget/Gossip/banned.htm
^Mass Urza's block bannings

There were other bannings during the Urza's Saga block, but that was the only time during it they hit 3+ cards at once, I believe.

Means Miridon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TsumiBand

Do these even have a home outside of Standard? Vehicles look like such ass, but tbh I've never played one

---

It sees play in Faeries in Modern, but that's also a Tier 3 deck.

Wtf does banning Grave Troll even do? Now on average you dredge 1 less card... I mean if dredge is actually the best deck in Modern by a wide enough margin that a ban was in order it will still be the best deck without Troll. They also played Probe too I'm assuming?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Wtf does banning Grave Troll even do? Now on average you dredge 1 less card... I mean if dredge is actually the best deck in Modern by a wide enough margin that a ban was in order it will still be the best deck without Troll. They also played Probe too I'm assuming?

---

2* less. Imp is still played, but you replace GGT with Thug. Thug is also just a worse hardcast than GGT when the opponent has a Cage out.

They knew they couldn't ban felidar in standard before release a la mind's desire, so they made that banlist announcement change where it happens prior to a set release to a both prior to set and 5 weeks after a pro tour. WotC is a bunch of degenerates who want the next standard pro tour to be twin combo the format a la PT Belcher at the beginning of modern with blazing shoal and insane storm with rite of flame and co.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Wtf does banning Grave Troll even do? Now on average you dredge 1 less card... I mean if dredge is actually the best deck in Modern by a wide enough margin that a ban was in order it will still be the best deck without Troll. They also played Probe too I'm assuming?

---

Dredge never played Gitaxian Probe. The main decks running that were Infect, Suicide Zoo, Kiln Fiend, and UR Delver. A few minor decks like Storm and Jeskai Ascendancy ran it too.

Given that Infect, Suicide Zoo, and Kiln Fiend were all rather fast decks that people complained about (especially Infect), presumably the Gitaxian Probe ban was an attempt to hit them all and slow down the format. Because I suppose printing reasonable answers is off the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

They knew they couldn't ban felidar in standard before release a la mind's desire, so they made that banlist announcement change where it happens prior to a set release to a both prior to set and 5 weeks after a pro tour. WotC is a bunch of degenerates who want the next standard pro tour to be twin combo the format a la PT Belcher at the beginning of modern with blazing shoal and insane storm with rite of flame and co.

---

Mind's Desire actually wasn't banned before release. Scourge was released in mid-May, and Mind's Desire being banned/restricted was announced at the start of June and put into effect at the start of July. It was banned extremely quickly, but even the announcement occurred a few weeks after release. They might have decided on it before release, though... it's unclear how far ahead of the announcement these are decided.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I'm not sure if you're referring to Mirrodin or Urza's Saga block (I suppose the statement of being "a much bigger disaster" holds for either, though). But for the record, I did go back and find the text of the announcements for both, and they refer to the format as Standard.

---

Guess I'm a moran. Don't remember hearing the term until a while after that, and I certainly remember people's discussing Type 2 at least as late as Mirrodin's release. I stand corrected.

For the record, I was referring to The Age of Mirrodin: Echoing Ruin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

In my local meta, people have been playing Thopter as a value-creature in Stoneblade decks for a while now. Every time I see it, it looks quite good.

Doesn't change the fact that they are playing Stoneblade in the first place though :eyebrow:

---

I remember calling that one around the time of Kaladesh's release, and everybody at the LGS looked at me like I was wearing a porcupine as a codpiece. Genuinely interested to hear whether it takes that deck back into the big leagues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

I actually kinda wonder why Legacy hasn't tested Thopter, given its supergood in Affinity, can be cast off Ancient Tomb and works great with Noble Hierarch. I mean, most non-blue decks get a pseudo-delver with a cardselection mechanic attached. Can't be THAT bad.

---

I've tested it in a Ancient Tomb build, but was never too impressed by it. The main problem was that often it did nothing (due to lack of creatures). So you need a high creature count like 20 creatures. But usually, when you are playing a Tomb deck, your other creatures are often bigger than Copter and you want to play non-creature lock pieces. You don't want to tap your creatures for Crew, but simply attack with them, except maybe something like Phyrexian Revoker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

He made the very good decision to drop SFM. Outside of D&T, it has no place in Legacy anymore; it actually hasn't had a place for almost 1.5 years now. I remember talking to Philipp about it at MKM Prag 2015 and we both wondered why you would still play that card.

---

Just curious: What happened 1.5 years ago?

Well, just when Kaladesh pulled me into standard (as a 1994 magic veteran), the ban announcement on smuggler's copter is pulling me out again. I'm sitting on 5 foil copters and a deck that relies heavily on madness triggers. So much for my standard career!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

I think it's a sleeper. I could easily see it having applications in e.g. Eldrazi or D&T. I would probably test it if I had more time (and if Miracles didn't kill any desire for me to play Legacy as long as it's around).

---

I like this line of play:
t1: Ancient Tomb, Smuggler's Copter
t2: Cavern of Souls, Eldrazi Skyspawner, Crew with Scion token, attack for 3 loot
t3: Eldrazi temple, Reality Smasher, attack for 10 loot