There is only 1 island in that deck.
I don't like force spike, I'd go -3 Force Spike, -3 Mana Leak, +4 Spell Snare, +4 Jace.
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There is only 1 island in that deck.
I don't like force spike, I'd go -3 Force Spike, -3 Mana Leak, +4 Spell Snare, +4 Jace.
The rest of the deck are Islands, I forgot that one (there 15 Islands to be exact).
And as we are at beeing correct and formal, how can you cut 6 cards and add 8, and play additional 4 Jaces when there is already one:confused:? I'm just sayin... .
The Spell Snare isnt really better in this deck because when you have locked out the opponent a bit with B2B Force Spike and Mana Leak are significant upgraded. Besides that Force Spike hits more spells.
The existence for those Mana Leaks and Force Spikes is that they work so well together with B2B and are often used to force the opponent to tapp additional lands so you can blow them out, next turn or completely when B2B already is on the battlefield, regardless if their spell resolves.
Spell Snare doesnt belong in this build and I tested it in a different Version were it was surprisingly weak. I dont think that Spell Snare hits so many cards the deck cant deal with in a different way, even when B2B is a dead card against the opposing deck.
To me it seems, that you just flew over my list and decided to judge cards unworthy which are not typical Legacy-Staples and tried to replace them with stuff thats doing a great job in other lists. I would be more careful with that.
Different thing:
Meloku, the clouded mirror
I love the card and played in the past at least 2 copies of her and she was just amazing for so many different reasons.
I think just saying that she isnt removal-proof isnt enough to decide not to play her and I really want to use her, even if I am not seeing any card in my current maindeck that leaves space for her.
My first MUC version had 3 copies and Meloku worked out very well against many different kind of decks.
Sry, I meant 2 Jace.
EDIT: I base my thoughts on testing several versions of the deck, trying Mana Leak and Force Spike in the flex spots, and finding spell snare to be better most of the time. Spell Snare is never a dead card (except maybe against dredge), while force spike is in late turns.
@ I am the brainwasher.
WoW. It's like 3 years I'm not playing Ophidian + quicksand. I used to love it.
I know ophidian build controls mostly the stack, and so it is not that dependant on the metagame as other controls muc are.
can you please explain me how you feel as for goblins' & zoo match up maindeck?
also You never feel the need of an additional morphling / rainbow efreet ? (I know killing via-ophidian is possible)
As for my games (with my classic list with 23 island + 11 counters) with NO Bant, natural order was always my major problem, especially on opponent's turn 3 with daze back up. When I win is most of times thanks to having drown the right counters and drop morphling fast. It sound absurd but my game plan vs bant is counter + morphling-race.
Just attention to details...Meloku is a DUDE, not a she. Read the flavor text.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Mr. Safety:
"Just attention to details...Meloku is a DUDE, not a she. Read the flavor text. "
- :eek: You're right, thats just weird! I mean look at him/her/it. OMG... .
@Serendib:
- Zoo:
It really depends on their list. When you play against Big Zoo its not that hard, they are rather Slow and the spells are way more expensive and here I noramlly win because its easier to make good trades and you have much more time than against those evil lists with maybe 15 (!!!) 1-Drops.
Against Cat-Zoo/Straight forward versions its much harder and you really need an early Keg and Shackles to win here. Especially if the opponent starts I loose more often than I win, definetly. Postboard against those extremely Aggro-lists I take out Force of Will to not make carddisadvantage which can really cost you games. You really dont want to pitch any Blue card here, thats my oppinion. Trading a Force for a Nacatl/Ape doesnt seem too good to me.
Goblins:
Again its about their list. When they play Rishadan Port its not that easy. With Quicksand and Repeal (on the play) you have chances to handle 1st turn Lackey without FoW but with Wastelands/Port its hard. When they can resolve a Vial they will literally never cast a spell anymore (besides having you stalled out with ports) and you will find yourself with a a bunch of dead cards.
BUT If you look at it the other way around: When they only use the Vial means one Creep per turn and Shackles can handle that rather good (Siege Gang is just nuts against Shackles, avoid that guy). The huge problem is that so many spells from them produce heavy cardadvantage and might be a thread on the empty board that its hard to put yourself ahead. Not unwinable but a tough one.
NO Bant:
You are right, thats a plan and I won today a match by exact that way:laugh:. That sounds just wrong but is the way you win most of the times, IF you win against Bant:tongue:.
I really liked the Ophidians and the Scroll Thief even more and I prefer them over Jace Beleren and Accumulated knowledge because they can hit and more important block. I won a game in the metioned tourney with a single Ophidian because he managed it to kill my Morphling (:eyebrow:) and sworded two Ophids and was smart enough not to lay further creatures which couldnt attack at all with 2 Propaganda and just Duals. I hissed in his ear the last few times and won what I couldnt have won without another "critter".
Some people use spash color in muc. I some times do, but what I get is a quite different deck from classic muc because it gets remouvals (6 STP)
I would like to post my UW MUC .
23 lands:
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flates
1 academy ruins
1 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 plains
9 island
4 brainstorm
1 sensei's divining top
3 relic of progenitus
3 fact or fiction
4 force of will
4 counterspell
1 forbid
4 swords to plowshares
2 path to exile
3 vedalken shakles
4 engineered explosives
2 morphling
2 jace, the mind sculptor
side:
2 back to basics
1 rainbow efreet
2 perish
2 ethernal canonist
4 meddling mage
4 perimeter captain
-this deck is ment to destroy zoo, merfolk, goblins, bant & new horizon and aggro decks in general (considering the 75 cards)
-this deck looses to burn, high tide.
-vs control decks it's a fight. we have sure finishers (morph + efreet ) to drop on table who kills opponent finishers (planeswalkers) ... difficult for an opponent to kill us via creatures...
(I've never liked using specific counters and forbid has always been my pet card.. and this deck do not need that many counters)
the deck is stil in "work in progress". what do you think ?
I think you should think about what you want from the deck itself. If its ment to be a solid choice against all Aggro/Midrange/Creature-Based then I think its more than ok, besides that you will face serious problems, especially against all decks where your removal are dead cards. And I tell you this from the point of a Solidarity-player (which I am myself):wink:.
I am more a player who is not looking for the deck that has the best chances to win a tourney, I play what I like to play and this was everytime good for me.
What I mean by that is that I wouldnt stress your deck too much in one direction because you think that this will whoop Zoos ass because you saw much players of it at your local shop/tourney. I think its better to have nearly equal chances against each deck, but thats my oppinion.
All in all the deck looks fun to play (most of the time for you:tongue:) with it.
I was tinkering a long time for a very controllish UW deck with Baneslayer and I like the Idea of making such a deck, but i still have love for the very oldschool MUC lists. Winning with Morphling is just the bomb:cool:.
I played a MUC-version with a single swamp and plains after shadowmoor was released with engineered explosives. It was a good deck but couldnt touch my old list and I felt not so good with it.
To come back to the point, I am not sure if this list is superior to a Monoclored list in general, but I could see that it has better MU against decks that MUC really wants to avoid. I think its more like a metachoice, but I like the idea and its cool if this works out for you:wink:.
The 1x Elixir of Immortality in the sideboard is interesting. Sometimes, Zoo has the reach necessary to just kill you with burn. This would help out a little bit.
As for Meloku the Clouded Mirror, ever since I had the damn thing stolen via Sower of Temptation, I refuse to run it based on principle.
Question: For what match ups is the sideboarded Masticore for?
Why 2 Powder Keg and 1 Ratchet Bomb, instead of 1 Keg and 2 Bombs? Is affinity a big player in your meta?
Powder Keg powns Mishra's Factory, Mutavault (Manlands in general), as you said Artifact lands and which is muc more important it doesnt blow away your own Back to Basics (Jace) and postboard Propaganda which would really hurt sometimes. I realized that I needed/wanted Keg more often than the Bomb and the arguments mentioned above think are a good explanation. Sometimes the Ratchet Bomb is better and not having so much porblems with Needle/Mage/Extirpate (whyever your opponent should do this...) is a good bonus to its random upgraded ability in some situations.
The Masticore comes in against deck where I had to fear that i loose somehow my single Morphling and thats what happened to me a few times and it was annyoing as hell. It really helps to have up to two Creatures that blow out every other creature, especially in the lategame. Masticore was and is just nuts when you have ridicolous ammounts of mana (where you most of the time are when you cast him) and will literally dominate the table most of the times he enters the battlefield (battlefield sounds so gay, doesnt it?).
I also board him most of the times against Merfolk and Goblins (each kind of tribal-deck and Decks with a lot of weak dorks also) and he surprisingly wins a lot of games when he sticks around.
I cutted one in my sideboard to have additional space for a 4th Vedalken Shackles which are doing the things you want as good as he does it and as an earlier impact on the game (against Zoo Masticore is obviously pretty shitty) and is a better choice in a lot of MU I think.
The single Masticore is normally enough to have at least one win-condition, especially since JTMS joined the Team and you really dont board him against all decks so I think one is fine.
Another thing is that you are sometimes able to "race" Combo with an early Masticore after you disrupted his combo for the first time time (or even before it) and being able to blow up his Confidants/Xantid Swarms isnt a bad thing either. I think I might miss here another copy but thats pretty ok and postboard the Combo-MU isnt as tight with Chalice and Blasts (Relics maybe against ill-gotten, but he normally avoids winning on that way against MUC or blue at all).
Hope I was able to point out my decisions so you could understand it properly, greetings!
@ I am the brainwasher :
You comments are right. In fact I was playing baneslayer UWB control last 5 month (while I was always playing muc the previous years) but I was a little sick of killing with banslayer (needed to be protected, not difficult thing but annoying) and I want to give morphling a chance again. And I'm both playing monoU and UW in the same time. I see very difficult to set a control decks that can deal with most of the field. I think setting a control deck against an area could be better. So I usually decide to set my decks against creatures. For myself, as far as I have counterspell, FoF and morphling I'm happy.
So. Yes, my Uw control deck looses to any type of combo deck and greatly deal vs aggro and aggro control decks, with a 50% chance vs control decks (and I believe it is the player who wins mirror control matchs). It has landstill's avarage match ups but way better to my view.
To come back to the Ophidian muc.
I agree the decks runs better with f.spike and m.leak (while permanent based build run better ssnare to my view).
What do you think about mishra's factory instead of quicksand ?
I know mishra do not allow you to stop t1 lackey, but can deal with 3/3 too as well as ophidian+quicksand. A great aspect of mishra is that allows you to give combo decks a clock. When I play MUC (mono blue) I can allways deal with his first turns, but I cannot resist ANT / TES the sufficient time to kill him (with morphling is turn 9-10)
PS: Scroll Thief is a better ophidian no doubts. but he is bloody orrible compared to the old version no doubts.
Masticore is hot no doubts. I consider it a winning conditions also vs UGR decks like canadian of faeriestill UGR.
I was thinking about playing factories since I made this deck. I havent tested it enough to clearly point out how the impact on the game is in difference to the quicksand.
The thing is that you need to invest mana to activate the factory which you really dont want to spend because you need to invest it into other spells activation cost.w Also its not that reliable because it can be destroyed before blocking. Giving the opposing deck more targets for his more or less dead removal can hurt I think. Another argument for the Quicksand is that you can shrink creatures to the size where you are able to steal them with Vedalken Shackles (Vedalken Shackles only checks the power of the creature as you grab it, if it is EoT or whenever bigger Shackles doesnt care anymore and you will stay in control. Watch out for Giant Growth:laugh:)
I definetly see all the advantages of the factory and it is damn tempting. I might test it out some more and see where this gets me.
One question:
Serendib: "Scroll Thief is a better ophidian no doubts. but he is bloody orrible compared to the old version no doubts."
- What do you mean by that? Ophidians actual wording has the only advantage that it doesnt need to deal combat dmg to draw you a card; its enough to be an unblocked attacker. I often had the situation that I started beating my opponent with multiple Ophidian and disliked it that I had to decide.
Please tell me what you ment with that. Is there a trick with his old wording with that activation cost of :0: or what:confused:? I have no clue about that, seriously. I need to know!
hhah no no,
Scroll Thief is better than ophidian in all ways.
It's just that Ophiadian has made the hystory of the deck and Scroll Thief seems ugly estetically speaking. no other reasons. :tongue:
There is a similar dude coming in mirrodin besieged:
1UU
2/1
Shroud
When this deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
So Thsi could be good because the deck would still be immune to to all spotremoval.
Yes, but I can't defend the fort as effectively as Scroll Thief can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly_roger
Yep, thats exactly the reason not to play him. Scroll Thief doesnt die to Dark Confidant, small mongeese and all other small Banana-fighters of the Format which is indeed relevant. Besides that, nice card.
Question: Haven't you considered Wurmcoil Engine instead of Masticore? It can race all creatures (except Emrakul) in the format (take that, stupid hydra!), keep your life total "confy" and leaves some friends when he dies. Plus, he doesn't cost other cards to mantain. Just an idea.
That is a downside. On the other hand, sitting and defending against a dark confidant is a sure way to lose the game since your opponent draws an extra card per turn. Regarding Nimble Moongoose, a deck like this has such a huge pain dealing with a resolved moongoose that i would not mind trading with it. A threshed moongoose laughs at both scroll thief and this dude btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
There are upsides to this card, too, it dodges bolts, swords and incinerators.
lolz...Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher