[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

Nameless One: There have been enough lists on Deckcheck that T8'd that contain Bloodghast that the card has proved playable. Some people don't like it, some people do - it seems a personal choice and the deck has proven success in both variants. Ultimately I believe your SB list and choices will make more difference to your success than choosing to run BG or not.

Personally I didn't like the idea of BG UNTIL I tested it extensively. I found it helped me Games 2 & 3 as you have more threats to survive multiple graveyard hatings. Also casting DR was sometimes easier because you can generate more creatures.

All that said I would personally never cut Ichorid and only run BG in addition to it.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Is it viable not to utilize Ghasts? Will the deck be as effective without them? (I know I have them but Undiscovered Paradise is scarce in my area, and expensive online)

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I've played both version, and I was just not satisfied with opening some slots for the bloodghasts. I was trying to keep an open mind when I am playing them, but the slot's they were taking up I just dislike. I feel that situations were better with ghasts, just a slight, and I feel that ichorid with 4 offs can do the job just as well though. But tome people are comfortable with them, some people are comfortable with out them. I don't really like them. But yes, the deck is veyr effective with out them.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

What is the current decklist for this deck?

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The one with the asterisks is up to youto configure to your liking, but a good basic shell for the deck is something like...

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2-3 Undiscovered Paradise ***

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2-3 Dread Return ***

4 Narcomoeba
3-4 Ichorid ***

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2-4 Golgari Thug ***

0-1 Darkblast ***

4 Putrid Imp
0-4 Tireless Tribe ***

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

0-2 dread Return Targets ***
(Any or none of the following)
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Eternal Witness
Flame-Kin Zealot
Cephalid Sage
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Sadistic Hypnotist

That would be a good starting shell, and some configuration to your preference.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Any advises against hate? How good is this deck if you know know one runs grave hate? How do you get around Mogg Fanatics/Cursecatchers (I run both Goblin and Merfolks and this has always my tech against Dredge)

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Built your sideboard to answer them, but try avoding spreading your sideboard too much that they get spread too thin. As for facing against hate, having more acess to permanent discard outlets are also a good way. Those are the Putrid Imps and Tireless Tribes. try to not over extend and discard all your dredgers into your yard when you have no card draw to begin with. try to leave 1 in hand specially when you have a discard outlet on the table.

Thanks for the replies guys!

I did notice that on Zappa's Ichorid shell, there are still Undiscovered Paradise. Without Bloodghasts, are they still necesarry or we just want a land that taps for any color of mana?

Personally I only play the main 12 lands, and I have few problems with with mullagining due to lands. Sometimes I feel like I could even get away with 11 lands (cut a city or mine), but I will stick with 12 for now.

I like to keep cards that do nothing in the GY (lands/careful study) to as thin a number as possible to keep the dredging smooth. That is also why I am currently trying a build with no careful study, as it is the worst "gas" card in the deck, and also not the best discard outlet either.

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Originally Posted by junkdiver

Personally I only play the main 12 lands, and I have few problems with with mullagining due to lands. Sometimes I feel like I could even get away with 11 lands (cut a city or mine), but I will stick with 12 for now.

I like to keep cards that do nothing in the GY (lands/careful study) to as thin a number as possible to keep the dredging smooth. That is also why I am currently trying a build with no careful study, as it is the worst "gas" card in the deck, and also not the best discard outlet either.

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Could you post your list? What do you want to replace Study with? I can remember only Brainstorm but it is not discard outlet.

Careful Study digs for sideboard cards. I think I'm down to 3, but I wouldn't cut it entirely.

I agree that Carful Study is much more important post board. It also broadens your keepable Game 1 hand range, and is probably second only to Breakthrough in explosiveness(I know Coliseum draws an extra card, but I think the threshold requirement slows it down a bit. You also need a second land in play to turn on Coliseum), but it also gives you some utility by letting you dredge a fair amount but also keep relevant cards in hand. This is more important if you're running Bloodghast.

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Originally Posted by Osmin

Could you post your list? What do you want to replace Study with? I can remember only Brainstorm but it is not discard outlet.

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Well first let me say these guys are probably right saying you shouldn't drop study. They have probably played the deck a lot more than me, but I still like to see for myself because sometimes everyone gets locked into the same list and it fails to evolve.

That being said, I started dropping study and cutting lands when my dredges kept sucking. I would flip 6 cards and like 1-2 would matter in the graveyard. So that coupled with coming up against Stax one too many times has spawned this list:

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4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Bridge from Below

4 Breakthrough

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
2 Nether Shadow

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

4 Cabal Therapy

3 Dread Return
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

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So first off I'll try and justify the non-standard selections.

The low land count doesn't feel to low to me. I don't often mulligan due to lack of lands, and I like not seeing them in the GY.

I have 12 dredgers. All creatures. These help to be Ichorid food or cover Nether Shadow.

Nether Shadow is Narcomoeba numbers 5 and 6. I like him much better than bloodghast and he lets me keep the manabase simple. He often hits play more than once (unlike narco) and is black so Ichorid can eat him in a pinch. He also dances around tabernacle effects with Ichorid.

3 Dread return targets and 3 dread returns seems steep, but I really got tired of seeing useless crap in my graveyard. Sad Hippies can be eaten by Ichorid, and the high creature count ensures Nether Shadow gets covered 3 creatures deep, and (obviously) I am more likely to play DR targeting something that will have a large effect on the game.

Lack of careful study I have not missed. Much like when I cut lion's eye diamond and deep analysis, I did not miss the cards. I don't really find a need for it against hate to find help, as having the controlled discard of tribe and P.Imp coupled seems to be enough. I cannot say for sure on this yet, I will test this further and report my findings. I feel like with 4Tribe/4Pimp and 12 dredgers there are plenty of keepable hands. This opinion is subject to change, but so far I feel it's ok.

As far as Tribe and Pimp I cannot see ever cutting those. After cutting LED tribe was like a breath of fresh air.

I have 2 smallish tourneys next week of about 10-20 people at 2 different shops here in Tampa. This is the list I am rolling with, and I will let you guys know how I feel it did.

Criticism is of course welcome, and I don't think I have anywhere near a "perfect" list yet, but I do like to try new things.

Weird. I was just thinking the same thing. I'm also running only 12 lands, but I do have 4 Careful Study MD. I'm thinking of switching the Studies for whatever SB cards I'm bringing in (e.g. 4 Study for 4 Ancient Grudge). I keep the 4 Breakthrough in because I want to capitalize on the situation right away if I ever find the board clean of hate against me, such as discard Grudge to Tribe, flash it back, then discard a Troll then Breakthrough.

I play in a meta that is constantly shifting (well, we only have Legacy tourneys twice for each set release). Even though its evershifting, I find that it is always Aggro-oriented with a little of the two control.

As I mentioned above, I have playset of some of the key cards of this deck. I am planning to build a generic version and work my way there. Although I will not be able to play them on a tournament right away, I will be playtesting the deck enough so I can pilot it even with my eyes closed.

So far, I am looking at Zappa's generic build and I have no questions about them. It looks pretty simple; lots of dredge and a couple of discard outlets. I do not know the entirety of how this deck goes but I have the idea of doing the DDD: draw, dredge, discard.

With my noob beginnings with this deck, I would like to ask on when I should go off with the combo. Should I do it as fast as possible? Should I wait until my opponent has played their threats? This deck is different from what I have played so far (I have played X-land Stompy Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Mono-Black aggro to some extent and currently perfecting the art of Quinn).

Also, in an unknown meta, what is a good generic sideboard? As mentioned above, my meta has been aggro-oriented and I have not seen any grave-hate packed sideboards. In fact, I am one of the two people known to pack grave-hate. But that is not because of Dredge decks, but its my tech against Thresh and even Zoo (It slows Tarmogoyfs, Grim Lavamancers and Knight of the Reliquary). If I ever face a grave-hate oriented sideboard, what are good sideboard options for us? Also what are good sideboard options against aggro or even control in general. I have yet to see any Storm or Ritual based combo decks so I am not worried about them.

Thanks!

I think the majority of decks in this thread are less concerned with "going off" and more geared towards grinding the opponent out with the overwhelming advantage provided by playing from the graveyard. That being said, in game 1 you should dredge as much as possible as quickly as possible because there will rarely be anything your opponent can do about it. Post board is more about controlling the effectiveness of your opponent's hate cards. You're either trying to get them to pop their artifacts prematurely by making them think you are overcommitting, or if you play Ancient Grudge you are just shooting their artifacts in their end step and going for a big dredge on your turn. There are hate cards like Ravenous Trap and Leyline that are less common but sometimes much more effective. You should have a plan against these cards as well. Some number of bounce spells is standard in every dredge sideboard. Most people play 4 Chain of Vapor, I prefer 3 Echoing Truth and 2 Chain of Vapor but my land count is on the higher end of the scale so the cost on Echoing Truth isn't usually an issue.

I have found that in smaller local tournaments people are generally clueless about when to pop their grave hate. Some people will do it in your draw step after your first dredge for no real reason, others will wait for a single Narcomoeba, a few will understand when the right time is but they don't always understand that you control all of the "right times."

I think a standard sideboard is something like:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Terastadon
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Wispmare

This covers most of the commonly played hate cards and also gives you more proactive cards against other decks.

If you're unsure of what to do in the middle of a game, targeting your opponent with Cabal Therapy is the best way to find out.

Does anyone consider Quest for Ancient Secrets for SB? I accidentally so it in Zendikar booster.
You could sac it in response to Ravenous Trap or Crypt.

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Originally Posted by Osmin

Does anyone consider Quest for Ancient Secrets for SB? I accidentally so it in Zendikar booster.
You could sac it in response to Ravenous Trap or Crypt.

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Trap and Crypt are bad for us because they leave us without a graveyard. Quest for Ancient Secrets leaves you without a graveyard, hence ... just drop the idea.

A removed graveyard is much worse than a shufled back into your library graveyard, right? At least you won't lose the Bridges/Ichorids/DR's permanently.

That said, I'm not sure if it's any better than Ancient Grudge in answering Crypt/Relic, because Grudge forces them to use Crypt/Relic even if you don't have anything in the graveyard yet. However, it does also answer Ravenous Trap.

It seems like if you're playing well you will have a plan for dealing with the loss of your current graveyard. Shuffling it in is pretty much the same as letting it go unless you hit some crazy dredges with most of your win conditions. This should rarely happen if you are managing your dredging well. Quest takes up a sideboard slot that can probably be used much more effectively.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

A removed graveyard is much worse than a shufled back into your library graveyard, right? At least you won't lose the Bridges/Ichorids/DR's permanently.

That said, I'm not sure if it's any better than Ancient Grudge in answering Crypt/Relic, because Grudge forces them to use Crypt/Relic even if you don't have anything in the graveyard yet. However, it does also answer Ravenous Trap.

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I'd say a removed graveyard is just slightly worse than a shuffled back graveyard. It's not worth the slots in the sideboard.

With all this hype around reanimator and Iona, is it possible that people start to change their graveyard hate to better support their reanimator matchup. That might be good for dredge, if people start using less crypts and relics to splash cards like coffin purge to battle reanimator.

What do you guys think ? Can this appearence of reanimator actually be good for us ?

I don't think people will change their sideboards significantly just to fight reanimator. Leylines, Crypts and Relics are very capable answers to reanimator decks.
Ravenous trap is no so good against them, so maybe we will see less of that.

I don't think we will see Coffin Purge too much in a competitive meta.

The biggest problem regarding Reanimator is the deck itself. Imo the matchup for non-led dredge is soo bad against it. Thats why i think to switch to the led-version. Does anyone have LEDs for sell? ;)

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Originally Posted by claudio.r

With all this hype around reanimator and Iona, is it possible that people start to change their graveyard hate to better support their reanimator matchup. That might be good for dredge, if people start using less crypts and relics to splash cards like coffin purge to battle reanimator.

What do you guys think ? Can this appearence of reanimator actually be good for us ?

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The only thing I could really see happening is an increase in the number of Leylines (obviously bad) and a decrease in the number of Traps (also bad if they're getting replaced by Crypt/Relic/Leyline) - so a net negative there IMO. Some may opt for Extirpate, which I wouldn't mind, as that is much more effective against Reanimator, getting around FoW and spoiling Mystical Tutors - Coffin Purge is an option too. Largely though, I think most people right now are worrying more about dealing with Reanimator's threats after they hit the table.

It's really too early to say one way or another. Reanimator is going to make a reasonable splash in the Legacy scene but how large of a splash and how long lived won't be clear until things have a chance to shake out. I find it hard to believe though that the total amount of graveyard hate out there could do anything but go up, even it is is watered down with Coffin Purges and Extirpates.