you mean when it's coming into play right?.. yes I guess that is the way to go..Quote:
Originally Posted by DFY889
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you mean when it's coming into play right?.. yes I guess that is the way to go..Quote:
Originally Posted by DFY889
It's honestly pretty heavy blue, some combo (not so much, TES and enchantress mainly), low zoo numbers (Only myself and another guy have it built), some tribal. I've been testing against alot of blue. And even against blue, predict didn't pan out for me. Its definitely very cool (And I own 4 foil ones, LOVE Rebecca Guay art), but not practical and "win more". Fire/Ice helped alot against tribal aggro which I saw was a bad MU (Due to vial etc). Goblin matchup was pretty terrible, you can't kill them fast enough because you play just goyfs and cliques, so they usually outgrind you. They recover from sweepers very fast due to ringleader obviously. Having fire/ice was very good in stalling for the jace fate-seal soft lock (let them have anything except ringleader/siegegang/matron and sit behind goyfs/removal).
Against folk, this deck is actually pretty good, with Fire/Ice its even better. Just keep their standstills off the board, and you should be ok. They don't have that much gas. Against zoo, this deck is very solid. Having fire/ice is also very beneficial as you can zap a T1 2/2 necatl on the play, or an annoying pridemage that threatens your balance in hand. It can also nuke a steppe lynx + lavamancer which is very juicy. Has worked out very well for me. Fire/Ice's tap a land to turn off counter mana EOT has been very useful. It is incredibly annoying and has won me alot of games against blue. It gives me that window of opportunity to resolve my jace/balance and ride them to victory. Also, fire/Ice is blue which is pretty useful to pitch to force as compared to helix. I think helix is better against Zoo/sligh based aggo whereas Fire/Ice is slightly worse vs aggro but much better vs control strategies.
Rhox war monk is good, I think its a fine switch if your meta is heavy aggro, then your deck will look alot like the traditional supreme blue lists which bash aggro. Clique's instant speed is important because you can keep counter mana up and eot flash clique if you end up not using the mana. However warmonk is just much better vs aggro. I'll stick with the cliques, but I've boarded them out every time I play against aggro, I hate a 3 mana lightning bolt that can be zapped before blocks -_-. I've recently found my love for regular no-pro countertop. Mainly due to a Russian friend of mine's (Oleg) suggestion to play counterspells instead of daze and the 19th land instead of ponder. Its been very solid, having hard counters in the blue MU was very strong. I've been able to force through a late game NO with hard counters. Everybody plays around daze. It hasnt been working well for me. Daze is still better vs tightly curved decks like goblins, but most other decks can afford to play around daze. I hate being a landdrop back vs folk and zoo, so daze gets the cut. I'm testing 2 wall of blossoms currently to make up for the clunkiness of counterspell against aggro but I'm still not set on them yet. I'm unsure if I should play the walls or 2 spell snares.
EDIT: I'm talking about RBg gobbos splash warren weirding MD and sb perish + grips (what I play and lend out). Warren weirding MD hurts alot against such a creature light deck like 4c countertop. Helps lackey connect very often and is a a very efficient answer to wall of goyf. I honestly think RB gobbos is much harder than mono red.
Simple question: What is the best-performing CounterTop archetype?
How many colours? With or without Thopter Foundry?
Unlike the question, I suspect the answer is difficult.
Pretty simple answer too, actually: 4-color Supreme Blue is currently the best-performing CBtop deck in major American tournaments. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the best deck though.
Since GP Columbus, it:
Made the finals of GP Columbus itself with another player going undefeated Day 1 and a handful of others in the top 16 (Craig Wescoe, Paulo Vitor made 17th). The only other CBtop list to my knowledge was the DQ'd kid, who played UGR CBtop with painterstone (rogue).
Put one player in the top 8 of SCG 5k Denver with 2 others in the top 16, though SCG mislabeled it as UGR. The only other CBtop deck (which finished ahead of all 3 Supreme Blue lists) was a rogue UWb list.
No CBtop archetypes made the top 16 of SCG 5k Minneapolis, but 5 U/G Madness decks do. Wizards considers banning Vengevine... not really.
...aaand thoptertop is still too heavy on card disadvantage to be tier 1.
Without Firespout and a robust sideboard, the Merfolk matchup is pretty atrocious. That's why the 4 color Top deck has become best performing.
Hi,
I've been playing countertop in a few tournaments in my area and have had some decent results however i have not yet managed to win a tournament by now (hopefully i will soon), my best result was 2nd place. I'm playing the ProBant version and my build is the following:
Lands[19]:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Taiga
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Forest
Here i chose only "Forest" Fetch Lands (no Flooded Strands) since they allow me to fetch Dryad Arbor anytime and also my lone Taiga (which is there for the Sideboard Firespouts).
Creatures[14]
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Rhox War Monk
1x Trygon Predator
1x Progenitus
This is pretty much the standard creatures used in pro bant, Rhox War Monk is always great against zoo (cause it doesn't die to bolts) and even against merfolks/reanimator, it becomes a dude they can't try to outrace, i've won several matches only due to his lifelink + hierarch's. I don't include pridemages cause they're like rly awful against zoo and for a control deck like counterbalance they don't rly block all that well either.
Spells[27]
4x Force of Will
4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Natural Order
Only the usual here. I'm rly convinced that 4x instances of countertop is rly the correct number here, they just don't work without each other and you rly need as many as possible.
Sideboard[15 duh :P]:
4x Spell Pierce
4x Reliq of Progenitus
4x Firespout
3x Ethersworn Canonist
I know firespout is not great when playing hierarchs but i've tryed the stoneforge mystic + jitte plan and i never once got any counter on my jittes when playing against creature aggro decks, i've won and i've lost games but i've never once got my jitte active...it's just too slow to have an impact by my experience. I'm also considering changing canonists for krosan grips but, however, in my area there are very few SotF players and only one other Countertop player so i haven't rly needed them that badly.
My SB plans:
Against storm decks: -3x Natural Order -4x Swords to Plowshares +4x Spell Pierce + 3x Ethersworn Canonist
Against Tribal Aggro decks(merfolk,goblins and Zoo): -4x Daze (on the draw) or -4x Force of Wil (on the play) +4x Firespout
(if these decks have access to perish i consider siding out NO+ Progenitus, i wonder if this is correct)
Against Dredge: -4x Counterbalance -4x Daze +4x Firespout + 4x Reliq of Progenitus
Against New Horizons: -4x Daze (on the draw) or -4x Force of Wil (on the play) +4x Reliq of Progenitus
I'd like to hear your opinions on my build + SB Plans, and what i could change to make it better.
Thanks ;)
Storm: You leave in Progenitus without NO ? I see that you don't have anything to replace Pro against Storm but still NO without Pro is better than Pro without NO. The rest looks fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparula
Aggro: Firespout is a must of course. Against Vial decks cutting counters might be the right choice but against Zoo they can be vital. Don't know what to cut for it though.
Dredge: CB out and Relics in for sure. But I'd probably leave in the Dazes. Countering their discard outlets is your best chance to win besides relics. Maybe you should rather cut SDTs to 2, Trygon and something else.
NH: Again, counters can be vital... but again it's hard to cut anything... I'm not sure about this
I like the NOPRO Bant countertop posted by jparula, but being a huge fan of Master Shakes UWx Landstill build, is there any popular NOPRO Countertop builds that fit Cunning Wish packages in while retaining a nice curve? I'm about to start building my own and would like to see some starting points
Actually, you usually dont have problems with this deck in mid- or lategame unless you are in topdeckmodus and in a very bad board- and lifetotal-position. So I think adding cunning wishes, which are only good in longer games, does just nothing. Additionally, but this may of course differ if its the correct metagamecall, Cunning Wish is only playble with black at the moment. I think Extirpate, Edict and Tsabos Decree are very important targets, which UWG just does not have access to.
I tested a couple of games pre board with Martellīs list against Canadian ***** with punishing fire-grove of the burnwillows added and I have to conclude that this matchup is horrible for us. In order to lock them we need to get CB-Top in play asap however they have as many relevant counters as us with all the tempo disruption added.
How would you play with Martellīs list against tempo decks? Help would be appreciated.
regards,
Slaydo
Could you post the 60 cards you're playing against. I'd be happy to run it a few times and give you thoughts on the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by slaydo
He plays the following:
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Fire//Ice
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace 2.0
4 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Goyf
22 lands including 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 4 Wasteland
I can only win if I have a god hand to burn through his initial counters and he doesn't kill my tempo too much (stifle/wasteland). Really annoying. Should I worry about this deck or is this a rogue version nobody will play in an upcoming national tournament in November?
regards,
Slaydo
I did more testing with firespout countertop and realised a few things. As good as goyf and clique were as finishers, they are simply removal magnets. Without countertop lock, they almost always eat removal. Not having a high enough creature count severely limits they're usefulness early game. Has anyone else found this annoying? I've played countertop thopther for ages and I loved the fact that opponents always had dead removal. Therefore I'd like to propose a creatureless version of countertop:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's divining top
2 Jace TMS
2 Intuition
1 Life from the loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice
3 Firespout
2 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's factory
9 Blue Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
Basically its my firespout list with 2 Cliques -> 2 Intuition, 4 Goyf -> 2 Maze of ith, 1 loam, 1 counterspell. Some basics -> mishra's factory. I don't claim to be original, big props to CAB Jace's creator for this idea.
Ok lets have a look at what clique is good against -> combo + control, its a flash, evasive, disruptive beater against combo/control, excellent! But Its is terrible vs aggro, how I loathe this fact.
Intuition -> excellent vs combo, finds balance/top for the soft lock straight away, basically an instant speed demonic tutor. Against control, finds countertop or loam/ factory vs opponents with wastelock, smokestack etc. Very flexible. Against aggro, panic button firespout @ instant speed, deliciously yummy, later it gets loam, double maze, also extremely yummy.
Goyfs-> Excellent vs everything but, removal magnet and I've found him very lacklustre against anything but tribal. Simply not enough dudes to justify running him. Counterspell is always excellent, I've loved drawing it, now with so many ways to find removal and keep the board empty, the 4th was a no-brainer, also needed a higher 2cc count. Maze of ith is actually really great, if could have been path but that's a speed boost for the opponent while maze is a tempo lost for us if we drop it turns 2/3. What it does is that it can be found and recurred through intuition, is an excellent removal spell and FORCES opponents to overextend into firespout. Merfolk/zoo can no longer slow roll you with a single dude etc. This serves the same sort of roll as wall of tarmogoyf (without enabling swords to plowshares).
Loam is actually very underated in countertop. I used to play "Its The Fear" by Gearheart and it only had limited targets. With intuition, you have more ways to find it and it really helps you hard lock up the game by giving you infinite fetches. Infinite fetches + countertop = GG. Also it recurs maze/factories and protects you from wasteland/ opponents hate very well.
Factories are an alternate win condition next to Jace. Also very good with loam. Factory is also underated IMO as a blocker. Having a factory already in play, I've intuitioned for double maze, loam and pretty much locked aggro out of the game. They have to over extend heavily and I just drop a spout to clean up.
Some problems are: killing in time, this has the same clock as landstill, which is pretty slow. But with so much library manipulation and now Jace, it should be ok.
Anyway food for thought. :)
What combo do you play against where you can tap out turn 3 to get one of your lock pieces to play on turn 4 and not die on the spot?Quote:
Intuition -> excellent vs combo, finds balance/top for the soft lock
and as you pointed out why not just play landstill at this point?
It's instant speed sir. You can hold your mana open for counterspell/spell snare and can drop it for balance/top eot if he doesn't go off that turn. Obviously countertop rapes storm combo.
Why not landstill? Well landstill is clunky vs combo (no countertop). Also landstill has problems vs fast disruptive aggro like folk. I'm talking about the deed-jace lists that most people are playing. Firespout is better because it is easier to cast when facing wastelands. Zoo lists are running wastelands now too. Standstill is also not very good vs folk or when in a bad board position against the many aggro decls in legacy. Of course by losing deed, you lose the catch all answer of deed.
I would say this list is better against fast aggro, better agains combo, slightly worse in the dedicated control mu (all countertop lists have problems vs deed). What my creatureless lists improves is the interactive creature mu like aggro and mid range as well as the countertop mirror due to the dead removal in opponents hands. Also intuition get countertop lock online faster and also gives you long term inevitability with life of the loam and factories.
I've actually been playing something in a similar vein with very good results:
// Lands
2 [IN] Island (2)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [OD] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SHM] Firespout
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [TE] Intuition
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [DLM] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast
In particular, I like the 4-method approach to winning the game, because I think it makes it difficult for opponents to deal with all 4 ways you have to win: Goyf, Jace, Countertop, EE recursion. Namely because each one requires a different specific answer, sideboarding becomes very tricky. I've found intuition to be particularly strong against almost anything non-aggro, non-control, as setting up EE-lock is simply back-breaking. Or, if necessary intuition is just a blue demonic tutor at instant speed which I'm pretty okay with. I like that each part of the lock is good by itself, so I don't sacrifice anything for intuition. Maze and shackles are there for a little extra abuse, but I've found maze useful for extension into 2-for-1s with spouts or EEs and shackles is insane in any MU where an opponent needs/wants a creature.
I think I also need to have an aside for life from the loam, because it is absurd in this deck. It has so much synergy with top it's unreal, since it brings fetchlands for the rest of the game and dredges things you don't want from the top. It also plays well to get you a 2cc for balance if you have a brainstorm in hand and a loam in the yard. I also think it's necessary in terms of land drops, because it's made me a lot more consistent and games where you can always get lands tend to work in your favor. After goyfs and balance, I think it's the next best 2cc card you can play.
As for the sideboard, I think it complements the main deck quite a bit. On a first glance a lot of it appears redundant with the main deck, but it gives a lot of tools to have a very high density of the best cards in your deck for certain MUs. For example, versus aggro you can bring in 6 creature hate cards (paths, firespout, EEs) which leaves you with 16 ways + 4 goyfs to deal with creatures, which is a nightmare for aggro decks, even merfolk, to deal with. There's a lot of cross hate as well, as things like EEs, pierces, and REBs tend to be useful in a lot of MUs.
That's all I have for now, but I'm willing to discuss it more if people like it.
Your point about being able to instant speed at eot is valid, but it still seems slow. The popular combo decks like Belcher or TES like to go off by turn 3 or earlier (or try to at least :P) where as something like painterstone or doomsday -> emrakul doesn't care near as much about counterbalance.
I like intuition overall, its really versatile, and the way you built you built it into your list seems solid and if it works for you great. My concern would be the slowness of this deck that comes at the price of running no creatures, especially if your factories start getting hit by swords, putting your ability to win matches on time in the realm of landstill while sacrificing some of the board control power of landstill.
As for the assertion regarding dead removal: well in my experience if its path/swords they remove your factories so you can't loam them, removing one of your two win conditions, and burn still can still dome you while they run you over with dudes. So the cards are never fully dead and in return you are forcing yourself not to play with legacies strongest creatures.
I mean this is all speculative based on just eying your list. I'm sure you have done testing and have actual results instead of theorycraft to go of off and I have to respect that but these are just some of my thoughts on the matter.
It looks like you've essentially created Landstill with fewer "oh shit!" buttons and a weaker manabase in favor of running the soft-lock it normally chooses not to. I agree with the above poster that, at this point, just play UW(x) Landstill or UBg Deedstill. You'll have more Jaces, the same clock and a strictly better deck than CAB (which remains a rogue deck like this one despite claims that it's the new face of control). You could also just play a CBtop thopter shell, which sounds like what you want anyway (and which there's a separate thread for).Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
The purpose of Tarmogoyf in 4c Supreme Blue is as a finisher (as you say), so unless you've got countertop online or a grip full of counters, it should really still be in your hand most of the time. Similarly, Vendilion Clique is less a creature and more a kind of 1-for-1 removal spell (assuming a card off the top is worth less than the card you put on bottom) that helps win counterwars. Its P/T value, unless you've got a big goyf too, is mostly irrelevant except to kill opposing planeswalkers. More importantly, the deck really plays nothing like Landstill or Thoptersword even if they share a lot of overlap in card choices.
Your observations are correct. I am unaware that this thread is more or less countertop-goyf and not just counter-top. I was going to post it on the UW thopther thread but it is a fundamentally different deck too with the enlightened tutor toolbox as its signature. Perhaps I should start a new thread in New/developmental. Tarmogoyf, as pointed out, is a finisher and a very quick/good one at that. There's no denying that fact, IMO its just fallen out of favor with me (how blasphemous) due to the godly amounts of removal played now, and the deck's lack of other creature. I agree that Factories get plowed too and cannot be recurred with loam. However, if you are activating and bashing with factory, you better have the countertop soft lock out to protect the factories. Like IsThisACatInAHat said, Tarmogoyf serves a similar function, don't drop it until you have countertop lock. Clique also eats removal and trades well vs merfolk which does not have removal, but against zoo, clique is very bad. Factories are built into your manabase, they just stick around making mana, occasionally blocking when under pressure until you get your soft lock up and they start swinging with countertop protection. Tarmogoyfs sit in your hand early game because I know its gonna get plowed when I plunk in down early game. Just my two cents
@ Valtrix, I'll open another thread and we can iron out our intuition countertop lists over there. Your's is looking very sexy, I hope I can convince you to drop the goyfs. :)
Edit: Opened the thread in N/D. Please contribute over there. All thoughts welcome! All criticism and suggestion appreciated!
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ertop&p=491841
Here is my take on a possible countertop list.
Control:
Top 4
counterbalance 4
fow 4
daze 2
counter spell 2
spell pierce 1
draw / search:
brainstorm 4
enlightened tutor 2
Win:
jace 3
painters servant 2
Grindstone 2
Removal / additional control:
peacekeeper 3
swords to plowshares 3
doom blade 3
land: 21
4x flooded strand
4x polluted delta
1x academy ruins
3x underground sea
4x tundra
3x island
2x plains
sb:
perish 3
extirpate 3
engineered plague 3
peacekeeper 1
Sideboard is really up for debate. Black just seems to offer a lot of options to help in the zoo and combo matchups. I am thinking running the full 4 counterspells instead of daze / cspell split would be better for this deck. Just threw the mana base together. Let me know what you think.