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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I really think there's a middle ground in there. Snow Duals were a pretty good idea, but functionally superior to the originals. Give it the Scar's Lands first 3 lands clause and it's golden. I've been playing with those Scar's Lands in Legacy already and they are good enough. (Sundering Titan deck if you're wondering why). I picked up foils of the UB one if it tells you something.
Wasteland is the tough one since having two of them similar to each other would be silly.
Force of Will is easily duplicated just because it's not on the list anyway.
Tabernacle would be easy to do something similar.
There's still a ton of design room left.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Wasteland is the tough one since having two of them similar to each other would be silly.
Wasteland is NOT on the Reserve List, so no problem there.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
I still don't think people are getting the message right here, so let me be simple and frank about what is going on with Star City Games and their outrageous price fluctuations since the inception of the Legacy Open Series:
Star City Games' attendance for these events outnumber most other large advertised Legacy events in this nation by an average of let's say, three to one. (That means for every one player at a non-Star City event, there are three players representing Star City.) With this level of consistent and growing popularity - which is essentially crushing all opposition in regards to advertising and marketing their product - they reserve the right to dictate the prices of their own product as they see fit; after all, it is their product to begin with.
The discrepancy here is that Star City, while being the premiere event coordinator in the nation, has transcended the value of the best Legacy staples to fit the needs of supply and demand, in addition to creating a profit of the would-be sale prices of a great deal of these cards. The problem isn't necessarily scarcity of product, but in reality what they are doing is completely terrifying players into selling their product because they know people are afraid to sell their cards they may never get back again due to the unprecedented price increases over the last few months. (Clever work, Ben.) Keeping this in mind, it is no wonder they are advertising their new buy list as being the best and most profitable ever to a player willing to sell their staples, because they know people are not willing to give up their staples as easily as they would have before, now that they have jacked prices up so high that people cannot afford to purchase them again.
This isn't anything new; people are talking about how Legacy is going wayward of Vintage. Tell me: What Vintage deck in the last six months has caused Force of Will to shoot up to US$90.00 or Underground Sea at a pleasant US$120.00? The answer? None. That is because Legacy itself has now taken over the reigns of dictating stapled prices, not Vintage, as most self-appointed "experts" would have you believe. More specifically, Star City being the primary catalyst in warping the value on these cards to a level that hasn't been seen since just before the format was overhauled in 2004. You are all witnessing Legacy in its Renaissance as of this moment. Just don't be surprised if the enticing articles from ringers on Star City's Open circuit have you balling in tears trying to afford the decks they have somehow found a way to horse-collar and retroactively do well with. Star City is a promotion, ladies and gentleman; a circus tent of "stars" who are advertising their own decks and making money for the big bosses behind the curtains.
They should be both happy and proud they are promoting a healthy format and are largely responsible for its current state of growth. They should, however, be ashamed of themselves for raising the value of these cards to prices so unreachable and unreasonable, that it will become impossible to afford and sustain play in the format for an extended period of time. I myself am a regular buyer of their product and I have been for years. But this is unacceptable and unreasonable, no matter how popular the format may get.
Bumping this to QFT. And to add to that: "GUYS DO YOU NOTICE THAT IF YOU SELL OFF 8 WASTELANDS, YOU CAN GET A POWER9? IT'S THE EASY NOW!" But I can't sell my Wastelands! Because I can't get them back at the price I used to buy them at, it's a lose-lose for people who don't have multiple playsets.
(Just to emphasize how ridiculously expensive Legacy is now compared to Power 9. I can no longer tell my friends that Legacy is cheaper than Standard now).
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
I really think there's a middle ground in there. Snow Duals were a pretty good idea, but functionally superior to the originals. Give it the Scar's Lands first 3 lands clause and it's golden. I've been playing with those Scar's Lands in Legacy already and they are good enough. (Sundering Titan deck if you're wondering why). I picked up foils of the UB one if it tells you something.
Wasteland is the tough one since having two of them similar to each other would be silly.
Force of Will is easily duplicated just because it's not on the list anyway.
Tabernacle would be easy to do something similar.
There's still a ton of design room left.
Tabernacle has issues modifying it, because changing the timing of the ability to draw step, etc makes Rishadan Port even stronger. Although they could do something like pay 1 or S.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
None of that shit is going to get reprinted in any form. Give it up. We're not going to see a new Tabernacle, not going to see snow duals, not going to see "From the Vault: Legacy," not going to see a repeal of the Reserved list.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mchainmail
Tabernacle has issues modifying it, because changing the timing of the ability to draw step, etc makes Rishadan Port even stronger. Although they could do something like pay 1 or S.
As if the power level errata wasn't enough. (New: Destroy vs Old: Bury/Sacrifice)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rukcus
As if the power level errata wasn't enough. (New: Destroy vs Old: Bury/Sacrifice)
What power level errata? It says "destroy" right on the card.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rukcus
As if the power level errata wasn't enough. (New: Destroy vs Old: Bury/Sacrifice)
Returning to the original wording is not a power level errata. Old=Destroy New was Sacrifice.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
Nessaja
Returning to the original wording is not a power level errata. Old=Destroy New was Sacrifice.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale: Destroy.
Pendrell Mists: Bury.
Magus of the Tabernacle: Sacrifice.
Yay consistency! Anyway, they should reprint one that's similar to the magus, so at least it matches. :)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
rukcus
Then all those Stax decks can have two in play at once! Great idea!
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
Then all those Stax decks can have two in play at once! Great idea!
All what stax decks? Since when has Stax been a legit concern in the metagame?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
majikal
Then all those Stax decks can have two in play at once! Great idea!
I congratulate anyone who goes out and spends the money to own Tabernacles. It's easily the worst way to spend $200.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
No I'm being serious. Having two Tabernacles might make those decks better. And 42 lands would love to have 2 in play also. That really is a great idea!
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Wasteland has been reprinted twice already, and probably will get more reprints eventually... Foil Force of Will is going to happen sooner or later as well. I'm sure Wizards is just trying to figure out how to do it gracefully without making it look like a huge cash grab. My guess is as a Judge foil or GP reward of some kind. Foils and other "premium" versions of cards are actually great for the marketplace because they provide price discrimination and product differentiation in addition to increasing the card pool.
We also have to accept the fact anything that is on the reserved list, sadly, is not going to see a reprint. Functional reprints are too risky for a lot of the cards, like Tabernacle for example, because they'd see play in the same decks. The Ravnica shocklands are as close are we're ever going to get to dual reprints, unless Wizards renegs on their recent policy, which is very unlikely.
Rest assured the marketplace is doing it's job of distributing product to the most people in the most efficient way. As long as the growth of the player base (demand) exceeds the growth of the card pool (supply), prices will continue to rise (inflation). A lot of Legacy staples were undervalued for a long time, and the new buy prices have come as a shock to a lot of people. But don't be fooled into thinking it's some conspiracy on behalf of major online retailers like SCG that prices are rising; the marketplace controls them, not the other way around.
I wish we could get some statistics about SCG's share of mtg related transactions compared to something like eBay, just so we can prove how insignificant they are.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I don't see why people are so certain that the Reserved List will not be abolished. Wizards is a rational company I would assume. If enough of their customers demand that they abolish the Reserved List I think that it is very possible to happen. Basically they just need to be convinced that it will be more profitable for them to abolish the reserved list than to keep it. Clearly the Magic purists want the list abolished because they love the game. The corporate types at Wizards/Hasbro probably feel that it's best to focus on supporting formats that sell packs and think printing old cards will deter this.
With respect to the argument that they are honoring a promise to "collectors", I have always assumed that most people acknowledged that this was a diversionary argument without merit (frozen in time since Chronicles was printed). This argument makes little sense. Look at Beta Underground Sea. It is worth more than a Mox or Ancestral, yet it was reprinted in Revised. It's worth more because demand drives price and demand comes from players not collectors. If Reserved List cards were printed in responsible quantities that maintained the integrity of the old versions, the price of the old versions would actually increase because it would create more interest in the format, thus increasing demand for the cards and making the old copies more prestigious - just like how Beta Undergrounds are worth more than a Mox. Anyone hording old cards would actually benefit financially by reprinting because it would create more players of old formats and increase the demand in having the pimp old versions of the cards.
There are many examples of this. Look at Birds of Paradise, printed a million times. Then compare it to Two Headed Giant, last printed in Unlimited. Both are Alpha/Beta rares. You can get a M11 BOP for a dollar but a Beta one is $200. That's because it is played and reprinting playable cards does not diminish the value of the original printing so long as the card is competitive in a modern format or has casual appeal.
I would encourage people to continue to let Wizards know that they want the Reserved List abolished and that they want old cards reprinted in responsible quantities (cards both on and off the list). Once Wizards realizes that they can make significant money off this player-base they will consider changing their policy. I think that they stupidly think that having strong eternal formats will hurt Standard- their cash cow. However, these two things are not mutually exclusive. Not all legacy players are going to blindly play Standard if they can't play Legacy. They will walk away from the game. Wizards will lose a customer. They need to understand this. Once they do they will reprint cards. They are a rational company.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
If you think there's any chance Wizards will get rid of the reserved list, you haven't been paying attention. Read this.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Royal Ass.
I don't see why people are so certain that the Reserved List will not be abolished.
Because Wizards already went through the "should we or shouldn't we" question and found an answer, and has announced that they will be sticking with that answer. Anyone who is speculating about "well, what if they would do From the Vaults: hundred-dollar lands" or whatever is just wasting their time. The Reserved List is here to stay. Yes, it sucks. No, there's nothing we can do about it, and there are basically no loopholes unless Wizards wants to go the Reverberate/Fork route, which I would bet against. When the official Commander decks come out, we'll see if there's anything new and playable in there, but I wouldn't bet too heavily on it.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
What power level errata? It says "destroy" right on the card.
When Magus was printed, Tabernacle's oracle was Sacrifice. I don't remember exactly when the changes happened, although I know it has been destroy for at least a year. (Aside: F*** Eldrazi Monument. Elves cast that against me once, Tabernacle didn't do anything.)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tha Gunslinga
None of that shit is going to get reprinted in any form. Give it up. We're not going to see a new Tabernacle, not going to see snow duals, not going to see "From the Vault: Legacy," not going to see a repeal of the Reserved list.
We're never going to see Clone or Psionic Blast or Berserk either, right?
:)
