I cut reverent silence for slaughter games because I can't find a silence. Slaughter games has been my most-wished-for non loam/non dreams card, and it's been awesome every time.
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I cut reverent silence for slaughter games because I can't find a silence. Slaughter games has been my most-wished-for non loam/non dreams card, and it's been awesome every time.
I'm pretty sure Pulse is the right cut. I've wished for Silence more times than I can count. It is very good in a number of match ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayotte
~Jeff
You didn't even have chalice game one. I took your Abrupt Decay and your Chalice. But you top decked the Wish. I just have zero ways to interact with DD; and didn't have a Vindicate / STP / Decay for either Knight. I had to hope you made some horrible misplay when I attacked with Batterskull which you didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Game 2 my hand was Arid Mesa x 3, Marsh Flats, IoK, Iok, Thalia which I should have just mulliganed. I didn't see hate until after you'd DDed and the spellbomb was just a slap in the face by then. My first draw was another Marsh Flats and then Alpha Scrubland. Terrible mulliganing on my part.
Even though I didn't draw my Surgical's this game I thought you played a little loose by not keeping cycling mana up when you had a Loam in your yard (especially since you'd wished one out of your board so I'm assuming all 4 were up for grabs); I almost have to assume you can cycle if you have mana up and fizzle my Surgical even if you don't have it. and that game I couldn't find anything resembling a threat (despite 24 dudes). I can't imagine mainphasing it so much matters unless you are searching for answers.
<Edit: snip steven is on here lurking>
@Everyone I have realized that I do really want Maze of Ith. I have played 3 or 4 games where maze of ith would have either made the win easier or straight up just won me the game.
Ah yes now I remember. I didnt have Chalice at 1, I was just hoping you didn't have STP X2 for both of my KOTR.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Yeah that game 2 was some pretty awful draws.
That is a fair point. Surgical is not a card that I have played around too much. I got blown out by Greg in round when when he Green Sun'd for a scavenging ooze with no mana open and I had grove online and Fire in the yard, I thought he mis played but he mind tricked me and surgicaled my PFires.
@Jeff: Why cut down the Bobs? Im not too sure of stage depths personally... It may just be too cute. I could see main decking the Bog and Decay and just playing with 13 cards in the board. That doesnt sound too bad.
He is the easiest cut. He dies a lot and is a huge non-bo with Devastating DreamsQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Might very well be. It is something that would need a lot of play testing time. My thoughts on it is this - there are a number of times where I'd love a second Maze or Monastery. Stage would allow me to have both of these. Depths on it's own isn't too awful. There are a number of games that go long where I could see myself simply paying full price for a 20/20 that ends the game.Quote:
Im not too sure of stage depths personally... It may just be too cute.
This is my current plan.Quote:
I could see main decking the Bog and Decay and just playing with 13 cards in the board. That doesnt sound too bad.
~Jeff
It's not absolute. But while I'm not threatening and you are in almost control mode you might want to think about playing conservatively -- e.g. just run through in your head "what beats me". I'd also just keep your sideboard close at hand; and I'd keep a die in front of you and tick it -- when it's odd during your draw step look at your sideboard quickly or something ... or next level people and look at it when you don't have wish. We live in a world with Cabal Therapy and Meddling Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
That's fair. So many triggers and things to think about... I had a board state at one point where I had Bob, Crusher and Library out, along with Loam in the yard. Its like reveal for bob, trigger crusher, then dredge the top three, then look at 2 from library. And now my turn begins lol. It feels like playing UB Tez Stax all over again...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Jeff,
Have you ever experimented with Unburial Rites? My friend and I went to SCG Philly last weekend and he was attempting to put together your list, due to various circumstances he couldn't get a 4th Burning Wish (this isn't asking to switch the 4th for a rites) so he just slotted the rites in because why not. During the tourny he said that the rites performed really well acting as a 5th (or 6th if you count the GSZ) knight.
Thought had crossed my mind on more than one occasion. After testing it a (very) small bit it seemed strictly worse than playing a stronghold and a stronghold is only good it matchups that are already very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zllig
~Jeff
Went 3-1 tonight with the list I posted a page or two ago with punishing groves in it. Tied for second/third/fourth place.
Round 1: ANT 2-1
Game 1: I have the nut against him but he's on the play. My hand is Mox, Badlands, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, Chalice, Terravore, and Dreams (Can I just draw this hand every game please?). He fetches for an underground sea and therapies me naming chalice (he knows what I'm on). I waste his underground sea and promptly rip a fetch off the top next turn to slam Goyf, then rip another land to slam terravore or something.
Game 2: The game gets weird after I dreams, and I pull a thoughtseize, his hand is Cabal Ritual - Past in Flames - Infernal Tutor. What would you take with thoughtseize here? I took Infernal Tutor, thinking that if I don't, he just goes Cabal Ritual > Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam, kill me. He promptly rips a red source off the top, rituals into past in flames into a tutor chain to 20 me.
Game 3: I mull to 4. He keeps a disruption heavy hand, which is now sort of useless. I keep Land, land, surgical, terravore. I play a land, he duresses me and takes surgical. I promptly rip a goyf, play it, pass, next turn I pull another land, play the terravore, I draw a wasteland and if I waste my own land I put him on a two turn clock. I rip a thoughtseize, see that he has no action, and hit him for 9 twice.
Round 2: Deadguy Ale 2-0
Game 1: Punishing Fires and Dreams
Game 2: Punishing Fires and Dreams
Game 3: We play again for fun, I pull legit the most god-hand god-hand I can imagine against them. Land, Grove, Mox, Land, LFTL, Punishing Fire, Countryside Crusher. I naturally draw the next Mox, and go Mox Mox Grove, punish your guy EOT, get it back, untap into Crusher and he scooped.
Round 3: UR Delver 2-0
Game 1: Tarmogoyf and Wastelands get there
Game 2: Chalice on one turn 1, followed by turn 2 terravore, followed by turn 3 terravore, followed by Dreams and a swing out with 10/10 terravores.
Round 4 Grixis Affinity 0-2
Game 1: I misplay and don't completely destroy his board with dreams forgetting how ravager works and die to a 4/6 ornithopter.
Game 2: He shits stuff out onto the board and hits me for 10 infect with an inkmoth nexus pretty quickly.
What about Last Chance as a wish target?
What does that do for us?
Win with one 8 power Knight and an opponent @ 16. Or get blown out if they Decay him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Playtested about 12-15 games against Deathblade, piloted by Jupiter NELC champion / legit best esper pilot I've ever witnessed on/off camera, only dropped 2 games. One was to a little unluckiness and a sketchyish keep (he turn 1 wasted me, I cycle, draw, pass, play land, cycle, draw, and didn't hit a third land), the other was just this train of him getting ahead. Took my turn 1 chalice, surgicaled my fires, got jace in play, and it just went down hill quick.
The 11-13 games I won were hyper consistent: I'm better at going into the long game, Punishing Fires + Chalice + Dreams + Wastelock are all just wildly powerful, I'm confident this is positive for us both pre and post-board.
I'm slowly beginning to believe this deck isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was. I've since beat every combo deck I've played, both storm and not-storm combo, and I've been getting hyper consistent draws.
In regards to Burning Wish, I'm also quite positive that this is a trap. Burning Wish in any deck that doesn't win the turn Burning Wish resolves, is a deck that shouldn't be playing Burning Wish. It's too much information, it ruins your sideboard options, and all it really does is give you a handful of bullets that cost more than they should. What's burning wish doing for you against what decks main deck? Get you thoughtseize? You run Chalice, Dreams, Knight, and Gaddock Teeg--a single thoughtseize isn't going to get there, blowing up all their land and turning their 1 drops off might though. Like, we're not Nic Fit, we're not doming them for 36 off of burning wish, it just seems so outrageously mediocre compared to having a more consistent maindeck and a sideboard dedicated to hosing combo.
My board against Deathblade is just -2 Abrupt Decay +2 Golgari Charm. But against combo I bring in 3x hymn, 3x thoughtseize, 2x liliana, and 2x surgical. Between the heavy discard, land destruction, chalices, and a fast clock, my matchup vs combo feels quite nice.
Can you throw me your current list? I feel that Burning Wish is mainly to get GOOD stuff like Slaughter Games, Devastating Dreams, Life from the Loam and Tsunami. Thoughtseize/Duress are really weak targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
If you're running Chalice, I would agree. On the other hand, 4 Chalice plus 3-4 Wish for discard gives you eight maindeck ways to (very slowly) interact with combo, so maybe they're not as bad as they look at first blush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
That said, I would not run more than five-ish dedicated Wish targets. The temptation to build a terrible sideboard just to maximize Wish is both strong and something to be avoided. However, if you're running multiples of other sorceries, you can leave one in the board and bring the rest in - particularly relevant if they're discard since you're super soft to combo and need some way to maximize your disruption.
Yeah I am really liking burning wish. I don't think there had been a time where I have been unhappy to draw a wish
Red demonic tutor is pretty good :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
~Jeff
Isn't DD actually just gg in most matchups? Against almost every fair deck, it seems like that and Loam are cards you want to see early every game. For that reason alone it seems like Burning Wish is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Weeeeeell...Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
The slower and more controlling this deck gets, the better Burning Wish is. You really don't need more than a handful of targets for it - Loam, Dreams, Slaughter Games, and one or two meta slots (Shattering Spree/Vandalblast, Reverent Silence, Dreadbore/Pulse, discard, whatever) - to make it worthwhile. However, as the deck gets more aggressive, Wish gets worse because the windows where it's good become narrower. The move towards a more focused midrange aggro deck a few years ago is why Wish was originally cut, although I think people at the time made other arguments for its exclusion similar to Kich's (I certainly did). You just didn't need Wish: it was a tempo sink, it gave away information, it messed up your sideboard, it ate slots for "real" cards in the main.
That model of Aggro Loam has been dead since before the advent of Jund. The slower, more powerful three- and four-color lists people are playing now get more mileage out of Wish. It's also why Chalice has come back into vogue: the longer the game goes on, the less not having one-drops matters and the more Chalice bites into your opponent's game plans.