To all these reasons, add 1 more : Stifle the delayed triggered ability of Sneak Attack, so the creature does not leave the board. I dont know... Stifle is too good for our deck. But there is no room in maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
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To all these reasons, add 1 more : Stifle the delayed triggered ability of Sneak Attack, so the creature does not leave the board. I dont know... Stifle is too good for our deck. But there is no room in maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
Thanks for the report.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
A new primer would be great, the current one is almost a year old and the metagame has changed quite a bit.
I've seen some hybrid versions of Sneak Attack and Omniscience hitting top 8 positions recently. It's mostly run with the Burning Wish plan. Seems to me that it's more consistant than the Omniscience plan alone, but less consistant then the Sneak Attack plan.
What are you're thoughts? Good, bad or just cute?
A common setup is:
4 Griselbrand
3-4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Show and Tell
3 Sneak Attack
3 Omniscience
4 Burning Wish
3-4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
8-5 Flex Slots
8 Cantrips
17-20 Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
eh, even though it top 8'd Im not buying it.
It seems like dead hands with this deck would be worse than either of the other decks
imagine a hand with like 2 grisels, an omniscience and a sneak attack or something of that sort.
So I sleeved this up for last night's local Legacy tourney.
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Intuition
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
2x Daze
1x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
4x Show and Tell
4x Sneak Attack
4x Lotus Petal
4x Griselbrand
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Mountain
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
SB
2x Blood Moon
3x Pyroclasm
2x Flusterstorm
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Through the Breach
2x Something I can't recall right now. :eyebrow:
The report:
Round 1 vs BJ playing W/B thing -
BJ is notorious for brewing his own stuff. Once in a while he plays something legit like Berserk-Infect, so you have to keep an eye on him. This deck was a strange brew.
Game 1 - He's on the play, as is usual for me. He spends the first couple turns playing some small white dudes, like Grand Abolisher and High Priest of Penance. I sculpt my hand. I tried to Show and Tell into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn but it was met with his own and they Legend-Rule each other. Eventually I assemble everything and run out a Sneak Attack into Griselbrand into draw-7 into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and swing out.
Game 2 - I side out the Show and Tells, bringing in the Through the Breach & Pyroclasms to try and control the board until I can just go straight Sneak Attack. The deck decided to hate me as I mull to 5 and never really get anything of worth while he keeps dropping dudes, swinging out and all that stuff.
Game 3 - I stick with my plan on the board and spend some time sculpting while he drops dudes, pretty much the same stuff from game 1. At one point I see an Isochron Scepter hit the table with an imprinted Orim's Chant. I decided it was time and went off with that thing this deck does; Sneak Attack into Griselbrand into draw-7 into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and BJ scoops 'em up.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 vs Joe playing Mono-Red Burn -
Game 1 - I got paired down here. With Joe on the play, of course, he proceeds to start burninating me as I scuplt for a bit. I never see him play anything aside from burn spells, no creatures at all. So turn 4 I go Show and Tell (to which he puts nothing into play) into Sneak Attack into Griselbrand into draw-7 into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and swing out. On to the next one.
Game 2 - I think I boarded out the Intuitions for the Flusterstorms just to give me a better chance of controlling any fast burn that may matter mid-game. Sometimes these things become an issue when you want to draw-7. He leads off with his same plays from last game while I scuplt a bit and eventually do the same Show and Tell into Sneak Attack into Griselbrand into draw-7 into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and this one is over.
2-0 (2-0)
Round 3 vs Dave playing Manaless Dredge -
I've played this deck a bit and feel I have a good understanding of it. I also tried to come prepaired for it since Dredge can be a thing in my meta. I also had watched Dave play some of the first 2 rounds so I kind of knew where he was hitting on all cylinders and where he was missing a bit.
Game 1 - Dave puts me on the play, of course. So I proceed to my "sculpt" phase while he does the DDD thing. I get lucky while he dredges some poo, not hitting anything of note and I do that Sneak Attack into Griselbrand into draw-7 into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn thing. On to game 2.
Game 2 - I board out the Show and Tells since I know he has some decent targets. I also drop the Intuitions and a couple counters since they aren't great in this matchup outside of countering the Dread Returns. I brought in a ton here; the Surgical Extractions, the Tormod's Crypts and the Pyroclasms in an effort to control a Zombie horde if it got out of hand. He puts me on the play again, of course. I mull to a 6 of double Surgical Extraction and some lands that may work if I can draw some business (two blue fetches and a Tomb) and choose to keep. He reveals double Chancellor of the Annex. So I know I'm spending a bit of time waiting. I go land-go. He draws, pitches Phantasmagorian and passes. I go land-go again and he responds with a Phantasmagorian activation. I let it go hoping to get something bigger but crack my fetches for actual lands. He pitches another Phantasmagorian, a Golgari Thug and an Ichorid. I proceed to extract that Ichorid (paying 2 for the Chancellors) and then try to get the Phantasmagorian, to which he responds by pitching 3 cards that aren't Phantasmagorian to return it to his hand. At this point I'm actually in good shape as he has a lone Thug as his only dredger in his yard and his hand is small, consisting of two Phantasmagorians and none in the yard to pitch to. I proceed to scuplt a bit. He evenutally dredges into a single Narcomoeba and Cabal Therapys me blind, naming Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I'm holding one and it goes to the yard, then shuffles the yard back in, with those two Extractions. :cool: Somehow the game went a bit long, Dave dredges the vast majority of his deck, never hitting anything of substance and I topdeck a Tormod's Crypt to deal the biggest blow I can. This one is all over at this point. He never hit but a single Narcomoeba all game, I extracted his Ichorids early which kept him off recurring a threat and building zombies and he said later that he sided out his Nether Shadows. I think that combination was enough to doom him.
2-0 (3-0)
Round 4 vs Chris playing Maverick -
I've never played Chris, just met him at this tournament and we choose to ID.
We played for fun and he beat me in 3 as I couldn't get much going the two he won. One game was facing Gaddock Teeg, the other facing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I couldn't work around either at the time.
ID (3-0-1) Finished tied for 1st.
Final Thoughts -
The deck did well. I could have played much better, but it was actually my first tournament with this deck so I'll take it. I think I seriously need some bounce in the board to deal with Thalia, Gaddock and the occasional Karakas. Either that or Stifle, I don't know. But bounce seems good.
You can always use 2 Karakas in side board. I have them for Maverick and Reanimator. Well done.
True, but I don't own any and getting even one is a bit out of my reach. So I mostly play around that method. I think my answer might be swapping out those two sideboard cards that I can't recall because I never used them anyways to a couple Echoing Truths or something. Although that doesn't help against Karakas where Stifle would. I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
Thanks for the props. :cool:
I'm testing this side and I think it's very good. I search complementary effects of cards .
Side
4 grid
3 cage
2 stifle
1 needle
1 piroclasm
1 karakas
1 reb
1 sahttering spree
1 wipe away
Bye:laugh:
So I'm headed to SCGV this weekend and I'm running this maindeck:
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Eons Torn
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Intuition
3 Spell Pierce
1 Daze
3 Misdirection
4 Lotus Petal
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
I have yet to get the sideboard down yet. I was thinking a combination of the following based on answering cards that hose the deck:
Karakas (Karakas, Gaddock Teed, Thalia, reanimator... maybe even mirror?)
Stifle (hits the hate that comes in off of your own Show and Tell like O-ring and Angel of Despair)
Through the Breach (mirror and random places you can't Show and Tell like Cloudpost)
Surgical Extraction (need a way to interact with dredge and reanimator is faster than us so this helps there)
Defense Grid (tempo decks can be a huge pain without... but they haven't seen much play)
My thought process was that I have tons of counterspells to fight normal combo hate so I'd use my sideboard to fight the hate that counterspells can't? You can't counter a Karakas or anything brought in off your own Show and Tell... Is this right where I want to be or am I missing the mark?
Has anyone tried splashing black for thoughtseize or inquisition of kozilek?
It gets to see the opponents hand and discard threats.
The only thing missing from the SB list above that most people seem to run is one or more bounce spells (Echoing Truth / Wipe Away).
Bounce makes you not auto-lose to certain cards (Ensnaring Bridge / Humility); slightly better than Stifle against some cards because you can use it at any time (Oblivion Ring / Detention Sphere); slightly worse than Stifle against others because it costs more mana (Gilded Drake, Knight of the Reliquary); worse than Stifle but not useless against others (Jace, Liliana); useless or terrible against others (Venser, Terminus, Angel of Despair, Karakas, etc.); but strictly better against other random troublesome things (Pithing Needle, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Stinkweed Imp, Baleful Strix, Meddling Mage, etc.).
Stifle is more proactive against other combo (Storm, Belcher, etc.), but bounce can be used in a pinch to buy you a turn against aggro and tempo decks and Dredge (or do the same thing as Stifle against Empty the Warrens, and sometimes Belcher if they need to use mana over two turns). Stifle can counter the delayed trigger from Sneak Attack (keeping your creature in play), but bounce can be used on Griselbrand to serve a similar purpose.
In short, I think bounce and Stifle can serve a similar purpose for countering opposing threats from Show and Tell, but the benefits of bounce slightly outweigh Stifle. Both could be useful, and I think some combination of bounce and Stifle could be the way to go if you can fit both in. The problem with that plan is it probably means cutting other good multi-purpose cards (that you don't have listed anyway) such as Hydroblast and Pyroblast, or the 4th Spell Pierce.
I haven't tried it. Presumably you'd be cutting counters (Spell Pierce / Daze / Misdirection). But it seems like at that point you might as well just play Reanimator with Show & Tell main.Quote:
Originally Posted by CranialX
Here is a list that might work.
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Eons Torn
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Intuition
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Misdirection
2 Repeal
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstaine Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Mountain
Discard cards can help and protect, whatever cards that you are going to play via show and tell.
For example: oblivion ring, gilded drake.
I also like the idea that you get to see the opponent's hand. Does giving you a tactical advantage.
Certainly discard would be useful in this deck -- like it is in any combo deck -- as would the ability to see your opponent's hand.
But does discard's improved utility vis-a-vis other blue alternatives (e.g., Stifle, Echoing Truth, Gitaxian Probe) outweigh (1) the weaker manabase overall and the greater susceptibility to attacks on your lands by Wasteland / Stifle; (2) the decreased acceleration from fewer SOL lands; and (3) the lower consistency of your FOWs/Misdirections being able to pitch a blue card?
That is the question. You might test it, but I suspect the answer is "no."
(EDIT: And regardless, I'd play Duress over Inquisition or just up the Thoughtseize count. I think Force of Will & Jace are more probable foes than Knight of the Reliquary and other <4cc creatures).
How do you think our mostly beloved Heffalumps (read: Terrastodon) would do in the board? He takes care of everything we fear like Ensnaring Bridge, Ring/Sphere, Humility, ...
I read a TR somewhere where a player used him successfully in the board. Could give us another angle.
So far, I play with 1 SDT maindecked, as well as
1 Terrastodon (vs all the annoying things)
2 Karakas (karakas/teeg/thalia/wasteland decks)
2 Surgical Extraction (dredge/reanimator/storm/mirror)
2 Pyroblast (blue decks)
1 Echoing Truth/Wipe Away (anthing)
2 Flusterstorm (counter decks)
2 Through the Breach (mirror, tin fins, belcher, aluren and any deck where i want to board-out s&t)
2 Blood Moon (anything where it can win on its own) // flex slot: 2 arcane laboratory (storm)
1 Pyroclasm (aggro)
New Show pilot here.
Have my MD pretty much locked up, but having no experience with the deck I do have a question about the counterspell suite. I have no idea how many Dazes to play. I would just test myself to find out, but it isn't always easy to get my group together. I've seen many lists with 1-2 Dazes, but someone I play with has been playing this deck since ROE and has been a steadfast advocate of x4 Daze... Can anyone provide some insight into what they think the optimal amount of Dazes is with a counterspell base like this?
x2 Misdirection
x2 Flusterstorm
x4 Force of Will
Finally, I have a big question regarding the SB. In an unknown meta, is it better to go on the Leyline plan or should I be playing lots of bounce and MU specific cards?
Thank you in advance everyone.
4 daze is definitely excessive as you rarely want to see two in your opening hand. This deck needs its mana after all. Two is fine, but I would consider playing none at all and adding a flusterstorm and maybe a misdirection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_L
Leyline IS a very matchup specific card. It is fine and helps I would play some graveyard hate in an unknown meta, although I prefer cage. You also do not want more than 2 or 3 bounce spells. Apart from that, I like playing mu-specific cards like firespout/pyroclasm, through the breach, pyroblast, divert. You play a proactive deck that does not want to sideboard a lot after all. Success.
Time for a proper sideboard card discussion. We only have 15 slots and I find it hard to choose. I play 4 fow, 2 misdirect, 3 pierce and 2 fluster main.
What should I place in a sideboard against the popular meta? (esper, jund, rug, elves, goblins, maverick and storm/combo)
Defense Grid
REB/Pyroblast
Overmaster
Leyline of Sanctity
GY-hate (reliq of progenitus-broader Card advantage vs grafdiggers cage-faster and harsher against dredge/storm)
Pyroclasm
Bounce (repeal, wipe away, echoing truth)
Please discuss, right now I lean on leyline, pyroclasm, 2 rebs and defense grids plus 2 wipe away.
- 2/3 Reb/Pyro is always a must.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
- 2 Echoing Truth as an all-round answer to different hate is something I Always include. They even work vs zombies and goblin tokens!
- I use Grafdigger's Cage because it also works against Elves. And rly.. In combination with your counter and clock, dredge won't win trough it.
- I would use defense grid if RUG becomes more populair again (and it will, while combo is rising).
- I currenly use 4x Leyline of Sanctity, there is too much discard around since Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay made Jund, BUG and even The Rock more populair.
- 2 Pyroclasm is often nice when Maverick is populair. I would use Firespout if you want more certainty vs Merfolk/Goblins/WheenyWhatever.
- I don't use Blood Moon nowadays. Ít's not rly necassery and the Leylines take too much space!
- Use 2 Through the Breach if Show and Tell decks are too popular
I have been using the following:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Defense Grid
3 Grafdigger's cage
2 Pyroclasm
2 Wipe Away
1 Through the Breach
Playing more TtB would be nice, but I like being able to destroy Elf decks as they pose the largest threat. There are also enough cards to board out (Misdirection & Spell Pierce) so having upto 5 cards to board in is nice.