[Deck] The Rock

So, after a grueling grind session that lasted 14 hours, a friend and I came up with a list we're pretty happy with.

We went from losing basically every game against Stoneblade to winning 3/5 or more. I'd say that'd pretty good. Mind you, our sideboard shows it.

I don't have the list at the moment exactly, but I can give the basic outline.

23 Lands

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
18

1 Batterskull
1 Sword
2

4 Swords
1 Putrefy
1 Go for the Throat
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Top
18
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Board (16 at the moment, need a cut!)

1 Putrefy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tariff
3 Extirpate
2 Thrun
3 Krosan Grip
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Putrefy right now is an absolute house. If you're on the play, you can kill SFM; if not, you can kill Batterskull. Not having to use a Vindicate on a Crucible and save it for Jace is great.

The times the deck died was usually Jace was onboard bouncing our blockers, and 1-2 Batterskulls were beating in. That was awkward. Other than that, Grips were great, as were Putrefy. After boarding, you're running 4 Swords, 2 Putrefy, 3 Vindicate, 3 Grip, and 2 Thrun. It's pretty nutty.

Personally, I HATE Noble, but the mana stability is somewhat awesome. Having a dude to attach stuff with, and being able to Exalted against their Batterskull is sweet. Now, Exalted wins both the Goyf war and the Batterskull war.

BTW, Sword of Body and Mind is really good against this deck. Kill it immediately, you will lose. Again, most of our deaths came at a SoBaM attached to a Batterskull token. Yeah, rape.

Thoughts?

-Matt

i was wondering if you tried a list without stoneforge in it, and what expierience you had with that list

right now i am thinking of dropping my GSZ again for another 2 quasali or maybe dropping the 2 GSZ and 2 Quasali for 4 tidehollow sculler (needs testings) and i would love to add mox again but that is just a thought (i hate noble hierarch as well)

i thought of putrefy lately as well, since it is allmost a maelstrom pulse, well at least it handles the most porblematic permanents for us AND is instant which is awesome. i probably will test some of them

i was wondering how the removalsuite was for you, since you actually have quite a lot of spotremoval spells right now, is deed in maindeck not good enough anymore? i am specially wondering because i thought deed would help a lot against stoneforge and batterskull tokens giving them a tempoloss because they will have to bounce batterskull again to replay it

PS: what was your reasoning on cutting GSZ? in my expierience it was good on setting up some defense with tarmogoyf or against combo with teeg, but it felt like it was slow as hell because it was essentially another 3-drop and my deck run no accelleration aside of GSZ into arbor

I tried a list without Stonefoge, and I wasn't having a huge amount of success lately. At the GP, I did fine against U/W Landstill, but the meta has changed more towards Stoneblade, which is better and aggressive. I'm sure I CAN play Rock and win against a Stoneblade player, but I have to work harder and have more luck than with SFM, since I have a better late-game (Batterskull/Equipment) and more threats. GSZ is missed, though.

Well, my friend had done some work the previous two nights, but we talked about it and came to the conclusion as follows.

GSZ is good, but so are all the other cards. I wanted everything to stay in, but there's obviously not enough room for everything.

I didn't want to cut 4 Hymns or all of any one card, so we shaved the numbers. The card that hurts the most is Top. Not having 3 is such a kick in the nuts. I had to force my friend to play 61 so we could fit in the Go for the Throat.

Having 6 pieces of removal is much better, as you need to interact with the deck when they're tapped out, so Force is their only out, along with Misstep on Swords. You need to pack as much removal into the deck as possible so they don't untap with SFM. But, if they do, you need removal for Batterskull.

Personally, I *might* cut down to 3 Nobles so I can fit in 1 GSZ or 1 Top, but the acceleration is good. If I *had* to cut all of the Nobles, which I don't think we should (Exalted is far too good at the moment), I'd go +1 Land, +1 GSZ, +1 Top, +1 Noble/Birds.

We also tested Stronghold vs. Maze of Ith. Stronghold gives mana and is a house against Batterskull's mill from SoBaM and gives you a long game against countered threats. But, Maze also untaps their Batterskull so they don't gain the extra 4. Knight was very strong against Batterskull, as well, by just being huge. They usually had to block it, which slowed them down. Maze was stronger against most other matchups, including NO RUG, Merfolk, etc.

Also, removing SFM after Batterskull comes down is also key. Otherwise, all your removal is dead, since they can put it back down EOT and swing again the next turn.

To be honest, as much as I liked Qasali, I didn't find I needed him. with enough removal from the board, I think it's fine at the moment.

Deed is only good at killing the token and SFM, which is great. But, Batterskull will otherwise live until the late game, then recur for 5 mana, which they can do. I'd rather just kill the Batterskull and not fuck around with Deed, since it also blows your creatures away. It's a bit slow, and you don't gain as much value. A 1 for 1 is okay (you only truly kill SFM, not the token, it comes back), but Deed shines better in the Merfolk, Zoo, Dredge, and Maverick matchups, where you're getting 2-6 for 1's. That's where you're getting maximum value, and right now, you need to be addicted to value to win rounds, not just games.

I'm sure Deed will do the job, but is it better than a Grip? Is it better than Putrefy? Is it better than Thrunn? What else can you take out to bring it in? There's so many cards I'd love to play, but can't.

Regarding Combo, it's dead. Combo is a terrible deck to play at the moment, so don't worry too much about it. If you face Hive Mind, we'll lose, plain and simple. There's nothing we can do, so you might as well take a break in that round. I know this is bad to say, but seriously, without warping the deck and dedicating otherwise useless cards ie. Angel's Grace, to the board, screw the matchup.

Again, I love GSZ, but I couldn't cut actual threats (unless you'd want to cut a Goyf for a GSZ, that'd be ok), even though we cut 1 Knight. Knight is great, but is a big, dumb beater that gets chumped by Factory, plain and simple. He was high on the curve and 2 different colours, so we cut 1 copy of him for SFM.


-Matt

Any thoughts on the new list? Has anyone actually tried it?

-Matt

I haven't been playing legacy much as of late, even then, i haven't been playing the rock. seeing as sfm is such a problem card, have you thought about running manriki in the board or Tower of the Magistrate? it's tutorable with knight and really hurts u/w mystic, even though it acn get wasted.

I like his list a lot actually. Hexmage is really good right now in the current meta and I like the fact he only ran one depths in the main deck. I think it is built very well and he played it very well and uses Knight better then most versions. Not really sold on his wish board though but that is a minor and everyone has their personal taste.

I've been advocating the use of Hexmage for a while in B/w to deal with Jace. I don't think he got Dark Depths that often, I think the deck in total won it, not just on the back of Dark Depths. Nice job to the Rock player.

-Matt

IMO the dark depths combo made Junk a sort of unfair deck, whilst the loam engine still gave it gas against the fair FoW decks. It seems to be something worth trying out. Having a bloody hard time getting Mox diamonds here in NZ though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Any thoughts on the new list? Has anyone actually tried it?

-Matt

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Hi, which is that new list you are discussing? Is the one with dark depths? Where can I find it? I just read this forum and enjoy the discussions here, but I don't know where the list is.

Thanks.

The other list can be found on Starcity Games Cinncinati info.

This was the list I was talking about:

23 Lands

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
18

1 Batterskull
1 Sword
2

4 Swords
1 Putrefy
1 Go for the Throat
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Top
18
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Board (16 at the moment, need a cut!)

1 Putrefy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tariff
3 Extirpate
2 Thrun
3 Krosan Grip

No wonder you're losing to combo. Less discard and nothing in the sideboard. Going with three Hymns seems terrible. It's the best real black card in the format and arguably the best 2 drop. I have a decent matchup against Hive Mind, but I haven't played against other combo in a while, though they should be okay matchups too. I play the 8 main, 2 Duresses and 1 Verdict side, along with two Canonists and sometimes Extirpates. I mix it up regularly.

As to your sideboard, you have a ton of 3+ drops which just makes the deck feel clunky postboard, but if you want to keep the sideboard the same, I'd take out one Grip to make it fifteen. I consider it overrated(even with Batterskull-format) and you have plenty of artifact destruction in your sideboard and main combined.

With Hive Mind: If they play Hive Mind or Show and Tell into Hive Mind, we lose. Sure, we can discard to our hearts content, but it doesn't always get you there. Topdecks can be greater than discard, at times. I can remember many times where I rip apart combo with discard then they topdeck Ad Nauseum or Tutor and wreck me, but it happens.

I'm not worried about the Combo matchup because it doesn't matter at the moment in the Metagame. It's like worrying about the Mono Red Burn matchup: sure, change the deck as much as you want and you'll beat it, but then you drop other matchups. I'm not particularly interested in siding in 4x Angel's Grace to beat an esoteric deck that dies to other decks doing their hate better: REB, Daze, Force, etc.

Why should I have something in the sideboard for a game of combo when I lose anyway? Running the what, Cannonists?, against that deck doesn't make it super amazing. To win, they cast Hive Mind, then pass, then on your upkeep/main/EOT/doesn't matter, they play their Pact and you die next turn. Sure, if you have lethal already, no biggy, but it doesn't work like that. It's not TES combo where they bounce it first, then have to go off, giving you time. Hive Mind honestly doesn't care, since one spell is enough. You need Cannonist AND Grip to actually deal with that.

I don't think you need THAT much combo hate unless your meta is infested still. In a meta full of decks with 15+ counterspells, I don't think it's the right deck, and the results, aside from Bryant Cook, show that.

I'm playing 1 Hymn less because of the dependence on White for Stoneforge. You let me know how many players with an open Wasteland will let you keep a non-basic white source alive until you untap next time. Hymn is an AMAZING card, don't get me wrong, but is it better than T2 Stoneforge? T2 Dark Confidant? I don't know, it depends. With all the Standstill and Visions running around, your success/backbreaking ability of Hymn is slightly diminished.

Again, I'm not saying SFM version > non-SFM version, but I'm trying it out. Right now, what else would you cut in the main? You can't cut more Tops for consistency purposes, and Thoughtseize is good even in the late game to take a Wrath or something. Hymn was basically the weakest link, unless we wanted to cut threats (which we don't).

2Rach, I'm not trying to beat on you, but have you played against Batterskull Landstill? I played games with the old build last night, and sure, sometimes you get there. I did many times, due to discard and Vindicates and threats. But, if you go into the long game post-board, they have 8 Swords, multiple Batterskulls, Jace, Crucible Lock, Wrath of Gods, and other goodies. You're honestly not getting there very often in the very late game without Grip and Thrun. Even then, you don't always get there. My point is, in a meta where the best deck is Batterskull Landstill, I should try to tune my deck to beat both it, and the most popular deck in the format (Merfolk, which Landstill does crush if Batterskull lands, which it usually does).

I agree the 3 drops are clunky, but necessary. I'll drop a Putrefy to go to 15, but you NEED Krosan Grip to win that long game (or even short game). If they start going to town with Body and Mind, you're gone. Batterskull is even a beating either way. Deed wrecks Dredge, Maverick, Zoo, and Merfolk. It may not be perfect, but it's all a work in progress.

-Matt

maybe i missunderstood, but could anyone post the list with the hexmage-combo-rock build (if it was a rock-build)

i am very intrestet, and maybe i will try this thing out, because i am a bit disappointed in GSZ right now, so maybe i will test hexmage as a 2 off and dark dephts as a 1-off (tutorable with knight), seeing if it shows some good results

That's what Canonist is for. Leave the Vindicates(and whatever else destroys enchantments) in so you can kill it when they drop Hive Mind. Discard with Canonist wins.

Fine, combo is not your metagame. For you and others, if your meta develops combo, this is the way to beat it.

Quote:

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I don't think you need THAT much combo hate unless your meta is infested still. In a meta full of decks with 15+ counterspells, I don't think it's the right deck, and the results, aside from Bryant Cook, show that.

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These aren't cards that say "destroy target combo deck." The discard has uses against the control decks, and the odd burn deck. Extirpates have their uses against those, and what they're actually for, graveyard decks.

Quote:

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Hymn is an AMAZING card, don't get me wrong, but is it better than T2 Stoneforge? T2 Dark Confidant?

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It's a moot point, I'm not asking you to take out either for the fourth Hymn. On turn two, I do think it's better. And good at baiting counters so the other two resolve. If they have Standstills or Visions, then I definitely want Hymn to help out even cards.

I never said anything regarding SFM vs. non-SFM builds, but I have, in fact, been running a SFM build for a while. Going so far as to prefer BW for a bit.

Even though I do disagree with some choices, I never complained about specific cards beside Grip. And Deed is not something on that list.

Quote:

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maybe i missunderstood, but could anyone post the list with the hexmage-combo-rock build (if it was a rock-build)

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SCG Cincinnati, like Matt said.

Brian Boss, 3rd Place at SCG Open Cincinnati:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage

Instants
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Snow Lands
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Legendary Snow Lands
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Vampire Hexmage
2 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths

Legality:
This deck is Legacy-legal.

i find living wish to be quite an interesting choice, it gives a lot of options, which GSZ would have also provided, but a wider screen of creatures (shriekmaw and kataki, i love those 2) + utility lands like bojuka bog and a sideboard dark dephts

only things i was wondering is why no hymn to tourach MD but mental misstep, then no vindicates (maybe to slow?), and no volrath's stronghold which i believe would be awesome for hexmage

what are your thoughts on it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

only things i was wondering is why no hymn to tourach MD but mental misstep, then no vindicates (maybe to slow?), and no volrath's stronghold which i believe would be awesome for hexmage

what are your thoughts on it?

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The reason for MM > Hymn is that he wants addedy protection for DD. Hymn is great disruption, obviously, but MM gives you added protection against StP/PtE. Albeit a swords will give you 20 life, but control/combo decks typically couldn't care less about giving you life if they negated a win con as relevant as DD.

The reason for no Stronghold (as well as an added argument against Vindicate and Hymn to Touracch) is that because hes running Wish/Loam he wants to assure that he hits G without fail. Also to consider that hes not running Tops so continously recurring creatures isn't always the best decision.

Forlorn Egoist

A bit old, but Just watched some of it now.

How not to play Rock by Brian Kibler.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...In_Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...gacy_Junk.html

Notable Highlites include; 1st video link
Round 2 game 1 Not playing Hymn( he runs out Bob) turn 1 on draw against Painter+Tomb and failing to think that opponent needs Grindstone and 2 more mana, either Mox/SSG+ Land,Tomb/CoTraitors, or LED to just kill him.

Round 4 game 2 against Dredge Not knowing what cards of his are dead to Leyline of Sanctity then proceeding to plan to KotR->Bojuka Bog and doesn't get why it didn't work afterward.

I couldn't watch any longer tell me if you spot any "techy" plays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i find living wish to be quite an interesting choice, it gives a lot of options, which GSZ would have also provided, but a wider screen of creatures (shriekmaw and kataki, i love those 2) + utility lands like bojuka bog and a sideboard dark dephts?

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Living Wish is there to tutor for the combo obviously, there have been BG and BGW Dark Depths builds using it for at least a year now. IMO the key innovation here is Mental Misstep.

He doesn't need Vindicate that badly because at a pinch he can tutor for Shriekmaw or Pridemage. This is less than ideal but the list seems to be very tight already, what with no Top.

I don't like how that list only has 1 Dark Depths maindeck. (Although it might just be an error in the decklist posted online.) I think only one Depths kind of defeats the point of running the combo, since almost always you have to resolve Knight or Living Wish to combo off, and therefore the opponent gets another chance to use counterspells (in addition to countering Hexmage). I think Maze of Ith and possibly also one Horizon Canopy should be replaced by Dark Depths.

Thoughts on that?

Edit:

Played a few games today with that build (against Goblins and Torpornought) and did not like it very much. Living Wish was very clunky, it was always difficult to play it and the card that I wished for on the same turn. I found that with no Top the deck was a bit inconsistent, and it was not possible to filter away dead cards in the late game.

After think alot this week and seeing now the Junk Depths playing on SCG, Im bringing to this thread my list:



// Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Dark Depths
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Tower of the Magistrate

// Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mox Diamond
2 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Living Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll


What do you think?