[Deck] GW/x Maverick

I don't agree that Humility isn't problematic as a card, but I haven't seen evidence that it's widely played. And while a painful card it's not the end of the world, as the deck can still get there with equipment/Elspeth (or other planeswalkers; incidentally I wonder why I haven't seen a list of Punishing Maverick running Ajani Vengeant.)

Regardless, given the deck's other needs I don't feel compelled to run either Grip or O-Ring in my board, although I would lean towards the latter if anything. Against Blade Control I think Jace is a much bigger problem than Batterskull.

I do want to say that Silhana Ledgewalker is sweet as fuck and should definitely be in the lists running 5+ equipment slots (including SFM). In such a list it seems much stronger than a singleton Thrun, since the first ability doesn't show up when you have to GSZ for five mana and you get it Dazed, whereas Ledgewalker's evasion and much lower casting cost are pretty much always relevant.

But it'd probably be better (and here I'm going to flip people out) in such a list to cut Moms entirely so you can fit in both a double Thrun and a Ledgewalker or two. They'll give the removal-heavy decks a much more consistent headache than Mom, who can't be tutored for and doesn't do anything much past turn 1-2 in my experience, and can still fall victim to Lavamancer, Jitte or Snapcaster tricks pretty easily. Mother of Runes was always, in my opinion, a borderline card- I tested it a fair bit and always found it serviceable but underwhelming- and I think the meta is generally able to handle it at this point.

Double-Ooze is sweet and surprisingly relevant against a large number of decks; but I've already gone over my preference for running doubles of all the highly flexible GSZ targets and no singletons of the more dependent ones (Ledgewalker being an example of a creature that's really good if you can get equipment very reliably but not otherwise.)

@Majikal: Drawing double Library sucks, but that's one dead card you're drawing versus all the lands/fluff you're going to draw in an attrition war if you don't have a way to stack your deck; and games against other goodstuff decks, Zoo, Blade Control and Merfolk/Goblins usually come down to an attrition war. Library also has a high chance of being countered or killed in my experience. I really think that 3x library manipulation is the minimum people should be running, either 3 Library or 1 Top 2 Library.

I mean Library can more or less be viewed as a legendary card, and while legendary is a real drawback (I've sat around with double Jitte in hand too), it has a finite negative value. I only run one Karakas because the marginal benefit of having a second copy to draw raw against Reanimator/SnT isn't worth the cost of drawing it when I really need another land and have the first in play. On the other hand, if the card is exceptionally powerful in a wide range of matchups as Thrun or Jitte or Elspeth, then it can be worth it, especially if they're going to try and deal with that card. I know that if Knight of the Reliquary was legendary, for instance, it would certainly not be correct to only run one (might go down to three, though, not sure.)

I can see your reasoning for cutting Mom in favor of more hexproof guys, but I'm not sure it would work out in practice.

I like Mother of Runes specifically because she dies early. They have to waste a removal spell on her, allowing you to disrupt the early game against aggro decks and burn decks with amazing consistency. It comes down to dealing with Mother or losing, and in many cases, it means dealing with Mother and then losing because they couldn't deal with Stoneforge Mystic or whatever else you drop.

With Ledgewalker (in multiples, I mean - it's an amazing GSZ target), not so much. They'll just burn your face and force you to chump, and you might be dead by the time Thrun comes down to play superwall or you can suit up Ledgewalker to go on the offensive.

Re: Library manipulation - I want to like Top, really. But I find myself using all of my mana almost every turn for one thing or another and just can't see myself ever playing it in Maverick.

Your build is a lot lighter on creatures, so I guess I can see where it would come in handy, but I feel like just having ALL THE THREATS is a better plan.

Yeah, it's nice when they waste relevant removal on Mom that means they don't have it for Knight. The problem is that a lot of the time they don't; it's a Lavamancer or a Punishing Fire or a Cursed Scroll or a Jitte, or she gets caught up and loses you another card against Wrath or Deed because she can't do anything by herself. Or they do spend an StP or a PtE on Mom and then Snapcaster it back anyway making up the difference.

I think my list actually runs more threats also. Like Thrun and Goyf and Elspeth and even Scavenging Ooze, much of the time, are threats. Mom and Scryb Ranger are cute cards that do tricks sometimes and can and do win games but are, by themselves, 1/1s. And 1/1s are only creatures in the most technical sense of the word.

OTOH if your meta is full of fast red decks I'd feel like you'd want more Goyfs over Moms. Mom can chump effectively but can't whittle down an attacking wave of inferior one mana dorks. Not like anyone plays Jackal Pup anymore.

(I will say that the best reason I've heard to run Mom is to protect Canonists etc.. from bounce against combo. If Tendrils were a more prevalent deck this would weigh the argument considerably.)

Mom plays a more vital role than just holding off dorks. Once you get board presence, she keeps you from getting chumped all day while they burn you to death. Pro Red your huge Knight and just go fucking kill them.

That's honestly one of the main reasons to keep her. She wins standoffs where the board gets clogged and the opponent may have flyers to block your Ledgewalkers and Scryb Rangers.

The other reason is protecting guys while you equip them, and hatebears.

But you're not running Stoneforge, so I can see why you wouldn't need her.

I think it really just comes down to playstyle preferences.



Here's what I'm currently playing, for reference:

4x Mother of Runes
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Terravore/Thrun (depending on meta)

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sylvan Library
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Savannah
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
1x Plains
4x Wasteland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor

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Originally Posted by majikal

Mom plays a more vital role than just holding off dorks. Once you get board presence, she keeps you from getting chumped all day while they burn you to death. Pro Red your huge Knight and just go fucking kill them.

That's honestly one of the main reasons to keep her. She wins standoffs where the board gets clogged and the opponent may have flyers to block your Ledgewalkers and Scryb Rangers.

The other reason is protecting guys while you equip them, and hatebears.

But you're not running Stoneforge, so I can see why you wouldn't need her.

I think it really just comes down to playstyle preferences.

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Well, metagame considerations might be more accurate. Having ways to break groundstalls is definitely important. Of course that's another reason I like running 3x Jitte over the SFM package; you don't have to assemble a team, a Thrun by himself with a Jitte is going to beat most decks and most board positions. I think a real problem with a lot of these lists is opening yourself up to too many mass removal spells by building up a large board full of synergistic guys. Like Wrath or Deed, or for that matter other Jittes or Pyrokinesis and just random other cards, are going to be good against you no matter what, but some of these list seem to be exacerbating how good they are with a lot of utility dorks.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Well, metagame considerations might be more accurate. Having ways to break groundstalls is definitely important. Of course that's another reason I like running 3x Jitte over the SFM package; you don't have to assemble a team, a Thrun by himself with a Jitte is going to beat most decks and most board positions. I think a real problem with a lot of these lists is opening yourself up to too many mass removal spells by building up a large board full of synergistic guys. Like Wrath or Deed, or for that matter other Jittes or Pyrokinesis and just random other cards, are going to be good against you no matter what, but some of these list seem to be exacerbating how good they are with a lot of utility dorks.

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I can agree with this. That's why my plan against Wrath/Deed is to bring in Planeswalkers and board out a few Noble hierarchs. Man those are the worst trap against such decks.

FWIW, I've been testing 2 Elspeth and SoLS MD and have had good results. SoFI has been underwhelming except for trying to race combo. Thrun has been removed for the time being (and should be considered a meta slot with Terravore, as majikal indicated).

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Well, metagame considerations might be more accurate. Having ways to break groundstalls is definitely important. Of course that's another reason I like running 3x Jitte over the SFM package; you don't have to assemble a team, a Thrun by himself with a Jitte is going to beat most decks and most board positions. I think a real problem with a lot of these lists is opening yourself up to too many mass removal spells by building up a large board full of synergistic guys. Like Wrath or Deed, or for that matter other Jittes or Pyrokinesis and just random other cards, are going to be good against you no matter what, but some of these list seem to be exacerbating how good they are with a lot of utility dorks.

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I like this line of thought until I realize that there is still lots of Maverick out there, and they play Mother or Runes too, making Thrun with a Jitte a lot less frightening for the mirror. Also Death and Taxes, another deck with Mom, seems to be picking up popularity again due to the printing of Thalia, although if other white hatebears are any indication that will last a month or two and then fade away.

All in all, I think Mother of Runes at this point in time is a correct meta call. But who knows what the future will bring?

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Originally Posted by majikal

I like this line of thought until I realize that there is still lots of Maverick out there, and they play Mother or Runes too, making Thrun with a Jitte a lot less frightening for the mirror. Also Death and Taxes, another deck with Mom, seems to be picking up popularity again due to the printing of Thalia, although if other white hatebears are any indication that will last a month or two and then fade away.

All in all, I think Mother of Runes at this point in time is a correct meta call. But who knows what the future will bring?

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Forcing them to use Mom on blocking is actually pretty good when Jitte is far from your only line of removal; and when they have to stop Jitte from getting active or immediately lose two guys you're in a pretty good position (of course this is my experience with a more controlling list sans the Swords of Herpaderp.) Conversely, while my list does run a few 1 toughness guys (the mana rampers and Witnesses), the relevance of cards like Darkblast, Jitte, Lavamancer, Fire/Ice, Pyrokinesis and Cursed Scroll is greatly diminished as it takes multiple attacks to kill a Goyf or Knight and usually even an active Ooze; and of course Thrun is right out.

Of course it may be dangerous to speak of "this meta" when that's subject to regional variation, but I haven't really run into either rl or in an online testing many situations where I really wished I was running Mother of Runes; mainly it's been in the combo matchup, oddly enough.

(Even then SFM lists have the option of Lightning Greaves, which frees up slots and is generally better off the top, although obviously not a turn 1 play.)

@Ruckus: When I was still running SFM I found SoLS really powerful in the board for beating control, but had too many problems maindeck where it was a bad lifegain effect and might as well have been Behemoth Sledge. I take it you've had different results against midrange decks?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

@Ruckus: When I was still running SFM I found SoLS really powerful in the board for beating control, but had too many problems maindeck where it was a bad lifegain effect and might as well have been Behemoth Sledge. I take it you've had different results against midrange decks?

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Might just be a strange week on MTGO for testing, but there's an incredible amount of Burn (derpaderp winnar) around so I needed some added life-gain. Then I started running into mirrors and other W/x mid-range, and SoFI was not pulling its weight.

The SoFI is now in the SB, so no equipment changed in the 75. I don't feel attracted to any of the remaining swords as they just aren't useful enough. SoFI and SoLS provide the best abilities and protections; SoFF might be warranted in combo-metagames, but no equipment is really useful there.

SoLS is much better in a metagame dominated by W/x SFM decks however.

Well there are equipment besides Swords and Jitte, though. Have you thought about Behemoth Sledge if your meta is that red heavy? It makes peoples' asses fireproof, gives Knight evasion and produces a huge life swing.

I have, but the :1::w::g: casting and equip cost makes it much trickier to use with Cradle than the other equipment. I've even considered Armadillo Cloak to break open the mirror; but both suffer from the same problem: giving pro:white will make the pants fall off. Hence, Mother can't protect the guy with the pants, and you just end up losing the tempo for the turn.

I hate it when I lose my pants.

Sledge seems like an interesting edge, I have to say. But, I definitely think SoLS is super good, even if you're just striking past Batterskulls and not getting STP'd, nevermind the lifegain and recursion.

-Matt

I mean, if you're that desperate for lifelink you can just play Loxodon Warhammer.

None of those options are really that effective as Jitte, which is still the go-to equipment against Burn.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

None of those options are really that effective as Jitte, which is still the go-to equipment against Burn.

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Agreed.

On a semi-related note, has anyone else tried Worship? I'm having some good results with it in testing so far, and it seems a little less narrow than CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Agreed.

On a semi-related note, has anyone else tried Worship? I'm having some good results with it in testing so far, and it seems a little less narrow than CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.

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I'll test it out this weekend. I guess that means I must keep the E-tutor board intact. It's a good out to Progenitus tho, so that's a good reason to try it out again.

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Originally Posted by majikal

I mean, if you're that desperate for lifelink you can just play Loxodon Warhammer.

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Basilisk Collar is probably a better choice. Half the cost to cast + equip and the deathtouch will kill anything the equipped creature hits.

Or just run Jitte.

I mean especially with the format gearing as much as it is to early game utili-dorks, and away from Goyfs et. al., I find it increasingly hard to justify options other than more Jittes generally, hence my own personal move away from the SFM-package. I suppose if you're strictly after an anti-burn card Sledge or Sword of War and Peace is better though, although Jitte is already so good that the distinction seems fairly mild.

How do I do autocard? Sorry...

Here's my list:

Creatures: 20
4 Mother of Rune
3 Noble H.
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Stoneforge
4 Knight
1 Thrun
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage

Non-Creatures: 17
2 E. Tutor
1 Sylvan
1 Top
1 Elspeth
3 Swords
1 O. Ring
1 Birthing Pod
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible

Mana: 23
4 Winswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Horizion Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Sterring Wildwood
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Ancient Den
1 Tree of Tales

Board:
1 E. Tutor
1 Choke
1 COP: Red
1 E. E
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Kitchen Finks

So I've taken the concept of "packages" to the extreme with this build making it probably the most resilient deck I've ever played. The E. Tutor's in the main help with boarding in extra cards while also finding removal, equipment, mana, etc...

The deck runs 4 packages main:
GSZ
Stoneforge
Knight
E. Tutor

Most of the time when I resolve a Knight I go and get a crucible so I can just do nasty stuff like draw two cards a turn/wastelock/etc...

If I get a stoneforge than I usually E. Tutor for a Birthing Pod so I can get some dudes. I put Gaddock Teeg in the board as there aren't that many combo players in my meta.

The board is pretty straigtforward, for blue decks bring in the Choke and Scryb Ranger, for burn bring in COP Red/Finks/E. Tutor for Dredge bring in E. Tutor/Wheel/Crypt etc... You get the point.

This deck is such a blast to play, I don't know why people don't play it more.

Has anyone tried Dueling Grounds as an option vs. aggro decks? I've only been playing this deck (GW version) for a short time but I have found Affinity, Goblins and Burn to be quite problematic MUs. Haven't played Zoo, but surely it would be helpful in that MU as well.