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My list is always in flux. Unmask is a flex spot ATM. I like it for the utility it provides and gives the deck a way out to the "Time Walk Syndrome" it has always faced.
On the play, Unmasking yourself with a Street Wraith in hand is just awesome. It also has merits against Combo, which I like.
Here's a list I've been tinkering with on the side now for a little while:
Manaless Dredge
PT1.1
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[4x] Bloodghast
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Edge of Autumn
[3x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Dakmor Salvage
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
Sideboard
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] Undiscovered Paradise
[2x] Ashen Rider
[2x] Pithing Needle
This variation focuses more on consistency with a more threat-dense creature base, in addition to being less interactive with Edge of Autumn and Street Wraith. Edge of Autumn allows the player activating it to get value out of opposing Wasteland activations and making creature(s) immediately off of Dryad Arbor and Bridge from Below. It's also never really dead if you dredge into a Dakmor Salvage. In a deck more focused with abusing Bloodghasts, Autumn has effective utility.
Pithing Needle is used to shut down problematic cards and providing you some protection in games two (and potentially three). Undiscovered Paradise's utility should go without saying in a deck abusing Bloodghast. In Manaless it's even more effective as it bounces back to your hand and gets you that much faster to eight in hand in the event you need it.
You do realize Hermit Druid is banned in Legacy, don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
This version makes me think of the the old Rausch list, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I refuse to call that deck "Oops, All Spells" if the correlation to Hermit Druid isn't obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I tested the living hell out of that list and it's fucking resilient. I don't know how much of a fan I am of it, but the more and more I goldfish it and play against competent opponents pre and post-board, it seems to be extremely solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I find it old-school, which is really nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
EDIT: I do like my list though, its been solid for me.
I don't think resiliency is necessary over disruptiveness, there just aren't enough Crypt effects in the metagame in order to worry about threat density and Surgical Extraction/Snapcaster Mage has probably gone the way of the bygones post Deathrite Shaman and True Name Nemesis.
I would never, ever cut Chancellor of the Annex from Manaless Dredge because you do not have enough answers to T1 Deathrite Shaman without it, but if you want to go the Bloodghast way I think SBing Unmask, removing the combo Dread Return targets and playing 4 Dryad Arbour and 4 Bloodghasts would be a viable, grindhouse where Dryad Arbour would have added value from triggering Bloodghast(s) for accelerated Dread Returns and would also double as a Dread Return target where you'd get X Zombies from Dread Return, reanimate Dryad Arbor, trigger Bloodghast(s) and then Dread Return again for X more Zombies etc. etc. etc. I always wanted to try something like that, excluding Dakmor Salvage altogether because it sucks at anything other than being played from hand in order to trigger Landfall.
Autumn's Veil seems really awful even if you're cutting Shambling Shell for Dakmor Salvages because you could just as easily play Gitaxian Probe. The thing that worries me about the Shambling Shell for Dakmor Salvages swap is that keeping a hand with only Shambling Shell as your Dredger is already pretty thin, I might play one, maybe two, Dakmor Salvage at most in the whole deck just because it gives you an eventual Landfall activation if necessary and increases the total number of Landfall activations from your hand if you draw it. I wouldn't be surprised if SBing 2 just to replace with Chancellors of the Annex vs match ups like UBW where Chancellor is mediocre would be the correct approach, but considering even UBW decks are playing Deathrite Shaman and SBing a Tropical Island I doubt that's even right.
With a base configuration of 4/4 Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian, that alone on turn zero gives you a very good chance of beating DRS, and the card ties up their resources anyhow. It's really not all that great and usually a Street Wraith on a Troll against an active DRS is lights-out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
...Extra creatures faster means fueling Dread Returns faster. If you're playing Dread Return, you play it to win on the spot. I know the line you're speaking of with Arbor and Bloodghast, which is nice. But I'd keep my targets in the deck if I'm dedicated to running a deck that is able to reanimate any of the most powerful creatures in all of Magic's history.Quote:
...but if you want to go the Bloodghast way I think SBing Unmask, removing the combo Dread Return targets and playing 4 Dryad Arbour and 4 Bloodghasts would be a viable, grindhouse where Dryad Arbour would have added value from triggering Bloodghast(s) for accelerated Dread Returns and would also double as a Dread Return target where you'd get X Zombies from Dread Return, reanimate Dryad Arbor, trigger Bloodghast(s) and then Dread Return again for X more Zombies etc. etc. etc. I always wanted to try something like that, excluding Dakmor Salvage altogether because it sucks at anything other than being played from hand in order to trigger Landfall.
I personally *hate* passing the turn to an opponent, even if I have the game all but locked up. There's that "all but" clause in there that can be easily mitigated by putting a target in the deck that wins. Even Griselbrand can be exiled to Ichorid and stacks on Shadows.
That would be Edge of Autumn and not Autumn's Veil.Quote:
Autumn's Veil seems really awful even if you're cutting Shambling Shell for Dakmor Salvages because you could just as easily play Gitaxian Probe.
And Edge of Autumn is noninteractive, as opposed to Probe. In a deck running more lands, the ability to make tokens and dredge, it's a very solid tool that also fights DRS without having to wait a turn like you'd have to with Probe.
Two separate cards for two separate purposes. Yes, the draw is the same, but it's the manner in which they operate and interact with the deck that differs. One is virtually unstoppable and has far more utility. It's also more situational.
Still, unless you've actually tested it like I have hundreds (if not thousands) of times, you might want to strap in and try it out before dismissing the idea based on intuition alone. I kind of did the same thing and wound up going 3-1-1, 4-1-1 and 4-1-1 (10-3-3) in three tournaments straight with it.
My list *always* changes (daily, really) as to eliminate the predictability issue with my sideboards and builds. This was no different.
Is 3 Phantasmagorian enough though? I find its one of the best cards in the deck, and I always want to see it.
EDIT: I played vs 8Tezz (or wtv its called), I won G1 pretty easily. G2&3 he got Leyline of the Void out... -_-
What build were you using?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
My version, kind of a mix of your old Manaless Dredge (sans Dryad Arbor) and Spy (w/Chancellor MD), but I run Griselbrand instead of Spy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I know that your version can deal with RiP (et al.) so I think I'm gonna try it.
Seriously though, folks: there are two kinds of people in this thread. There are people that don't think it's necessary to fight varied kinds of hate, and then there's people who tailor their decks to combat varied kinds of hate. It's really cut and dry at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
That being said, there's nothing wrong with trying new things, which is what I enjoy doing best. I don't give my opponents the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowing my list on a weekly basis, which is part of the reason I don't post my lists in the thread anymore. It changes so much that there's no reason to post just one.
No worries my man. Just thought I'd ask since you were one of the most succesful Manaless players I knew of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I told myself (when I was building the deck, that is) because you had the most success I needed to start with your list and adjust accordingly.
I just feel the deck is so tight, its hard to change things out (to me at least).
I'm just saying in general that that's effectively what it's come down to. The core group of cards never change, but things start getting hazy with the interchangeable cards that can be removed and replaced.
This is my current list:
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Sickening Shoal
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
Its pretty standard, can go full combo or draw out the game.
Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith are not enough to stop a Deathrite Shaman consistently, you need at least twelve cards, and thus I believe Chancellor of the Annex should be in every Manaless Dredge deck because it both A) stops a Deathrite Shaman or Relic of Progenitus from being played on T1 and B) allows you to cut your dedicated Dread Return targets in favour of more business spells considering it "locks out" all of the decks that could potentially kill you on the following turn from winning after you've Dread Returned it.
You talk a lot about "hedging" against multiple forms of hate, but that's exactly what Chancellor of the Annex does; it hedges against MD Deathrite Shaman, SB Relic of Progenitus and prevents any aggro-control deck from being able to Brainstorm or Ponder into Surgical Extraction or Rest in Peace with impunity. I'm strongly in favour of Chancellor of the Annex and Chancellor of the Forge (or maybe Dryad Arbour) because deccelerating your opponent away from his hate and accelerating yourself into your Cabal Therapy and Dread Returns is exactly what keeps you from dying, not killing the opponent immediately after you've already reached a winning position.
But most importantly, we live in a day and age where Swords to Plowshares has gone from the quintessential removal card to the worst playable removal card in the format, BUG, RUG and the UWR players who cut Swords to Plowshares for more burn can't really do anything about a threat as lumberous as a Golgari Grave Troll anymore so we don't have to worry as much about getting immediately value out of our Dread Return targets.
All of that said, I might be abandoning Unmask in favour of Dryad Arbour under the assumption that maximizing the probability of resolving Cabal Therapy vs Storm, who can Duress or Cabal Therapy our Unmask away before we can use it, and accelerating into Dread Return vs everything else may be a slightly better configuration.
Edit: 2nd Flayer of the Hateboud is always a waste of space, I'm also pretty sure you should be playing Dryad Arbour over Contagion because removal is too specific pre-board compared to disruption, reanimation, Zombies etc.
I really like the card, it definitely seems interesting, but how does one fight DRS with it without having to wait a turn? I mean, if it's a T1 DRS then we don't have any land on the board anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
You play a Dakmor Salvage, sacrifice it as part of the cost for Edge and dredge it back to your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyceron
I decided to build LEDless Dredge (on MTGO) to test and see which is more consistent between Manaless and LEDless.
I see it this way, IMHO.
Manaless > LEDless
Just want to see the results I'll get because I'm really intrigued.
I'm not certain it's that simple, LED Dredge or LEDless Dredge have the distinct advantage of being able to either Cabal Therapy or Unmask before Rest in Peace resolves - if you're seeing 4 Rest in Peace in every SB it's kind of a good idea not to play Manaless Dredge and play either LED or LEDless Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Plus Firestorm is like the greatest card ever printed in the history of Magic, ah roasted Elves.