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I also think that that is a very good hand. Also I am fairly sure that all good dredge players I know would also keep this hand(K1w1,Necro,Brot and three other guys that don't post here)But of course it isn't because otherwise it would be listed on Anusien's list of ultimate dredge knowledge /sarcasm
Really, some people might need to overthink their general attitude.
Representing LED Dredge at the Open in D.C. this weekend!
I thought it would be that semi-manaless list you brewed, or is it the same? Looking forward to a list for that one btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
A little bit of both :)Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I hope you do well! In the last year or so, I can't remember a magic-related quote that left me more curious and anticipating than your" There will be Ghoultree."
I think certain types of decks have a tendency to run certain types of hate cards (like RUG decks rarely run Relic) but what I've noticed lately is an uptick in people playing grafdigger's cage. Ghoutlree gives your deck another level of interaction with your opponent because instead of just fighting over Cage/Crypt/whatever you can just cast a 10/10. I don't automatically board them in, but I usually do against decks playing Snapcaster/RUG decks/other decks that can't beat a 10/10Quote:
Originally Posted by TerribleTim68
What I meant by saying that it beats people trying to value you out with Crypts is that it seems like people adopt one of two philosophies with that card: break it early and hope that Dredge runs out of gas or (more commonly) wait to break it until it seems absolutely necessary. What Ghoultree does is punish players who wait to break until you try to Dread Return or whatever, because it gets to one mana and then it doesn't care about the graveyard.
When I sb against rug decks, the deck I almost always bring in Ghoultree against, I usually do - 4 LED, -2 Breakthrough, -2 Dread Return for 4 Ghoultree, 1 Dakmor Salvage, 3 Bloodghast. Then I adjust for game 3.
There's definitely a chance the tree is cooler than it is good, but I've had very positive experiences with it. If it's more expected it definitely seems a lot worse.
and I QuadlazerQuote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I think Ando Ferguson will be there playing Manaless Dredge as well
lets hope we all make top 8!
I'm interested in seeing hollywood's deck too
Fizzeler- sadly no. I'm gonna be on the Merfolk plan for the SCG. (I'm Ando Ferguson)
Your bee is adorable :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Klazam
So, the hand is a snap-keep because..?Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
A one land+2 study+1Breakthrough hand has the ability to win on turn 2. You can dig 4 cards to find either a dredger or a land,which turns on 2 additional Lootings. Also if you draw LED + Dredger you can win on the spot. If you just find a dredger,you still have a turn 2 Breakthrough. That's a very powerful hand in my book. I mean it's no worse than 1 Study+ Dredger hand. You can draw into 12-13 dredgers and 12-13 other cards that do something(lands and LED,15-16 cards if you count additional copies of Coliseum)
How dare YOU, good sir! Did the archtype fucked you bad lately or you just think that right now it's not the best time for using it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Klazam
Good luck to both of you and Hollywood (if you get the gold don't forget to give "us" a shout out on the broadcast booth :p).
Have fun guys
Ghoultree seems like a very interesting idea, against a deck like rug that doesn't run STP it seems backbreaking but I'm not sure what else I'd board it in against.
I also like it against Merfolk. I recently played it against Nic Fit and it was a house (although he wasn't play swords). In general, I think it's good in matchups where a Tarmogoyf would be good (so usually not against decks like Solidarity/Goblins/Whatever)Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
Tarmogoyf is good against goblins, what are you talking about?
In regards to the Ghoultree, the old Parcher lists would run Greater Gargadon in the side. I feel it fills a similar role, but has more utility than Ghoultree. It lets sac Ichorid to keep it in game if it gets StP'd, lands that are targeted with wasteland, and creatures to get the most value in response to a crypt activation.
I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but the point of Ghoultree is to make their hate sort of irrelevant, besides Leyline. If they T1 a Grafdigger's Cage or have multiple Crypt effects you might never get to put creatures in play in the first place to sac to Gargadon, but you can essentially dredge the minimum amount and just start slamming 10/10s regardless of their hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenHornet
As far as I know, if they don't see the Tree coming they can't do anything to stop you from casting it, because the cost of the spell is locked in when you start to cast it. So if they Crypt or Relic while Ghoultree is on the stack for G it still resolves, and they still have to deal with that guy. Many decks just can't beat a 10/10 quickly enough, and those that do have answers may have sided them out.
From Parcher:
Most RUG decks don't run cage. Usually they run surgical extraction and/or crypt. You're a faster clock so they have to do something to slow you. If they bolt their creature, extract, or ooze sac in response get the most value out of your bridges. Also, you can pay for daze off one land with gargadon.Quote:
Gargadon costs one; easily accomplished. Gargadon sacrifices Creatures, Lands, and Artifacts, all expendable assets in this deck, to bring out a huge creature. Gargadon gives an additional Dread Return target. Most importantly, Gargadon allows sacrifice at instant speed. That is insane in this deck. "While still in Upkeep, Swords your Ichorid." Uh...no. I'll remove a counter from Gargadon to fizzle your Swords. Oh, and get two Zombies. Punk. "Waste your Coliseum." Nice try. Sac it to Gargadon, my turn? Swing for lots. "During your draw, after Bridges hit, sac Fanatic to kill your Ichorid." In response, get tokens, and here comes Big Red.
I know, none of this deals with Hate cards. Or can it? Not only can the instant speed of Gargadon's ability get maximum use in the face of a graveyard hoser, it can in some cases void it. Any combination of Putrid Imp and Golgari Thug makes an endlessly repeatable combo to where the enemy has virtually no good options. With PImp in play, you can recover from any grave-sweeper. With Thug in play, you can always return PImp to play by saccing Thug to Gargadon. If they can't kill PImp, you EOT sac Thug to return a Narcomoeba instead. Each of these cycles should also be gaining you Zombies. Board sweepers become irrelevant as well. If you have Thug and Narco, you get tokens. If you have Thug and PImp, you just continue Dredging the next turn. If you only have tokens, since they swept your board, and then they emptied your graveyard, well....they still have to deal with Big Red. He makes decisions for Aggro decks very difficult, and in conjunction with PImp and Thug, makes it impossible for control decks to win. Outside of Crypt and Relic, Jailer isn't really a threat compared to a resolved Gargadon.
Not saying he's better, just worth consideration.
I never tried Gargodon and it also seems sweet, definitely worth testing. Ghoultree is nice because it is just a 10/10 but I'm definitely going to try the gargodons out.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenHornet
I haven't tested Ghoultree yet, so i can only theorycraft a bit.
I think it's not so easy to catch players siding in Crypt effects off guard with Ghoultree.
When you side 4 Ghoultrees in, it is common to dredge one early in the game, what makes your opponent aware of this threat and smart opponents will blow up their Crypt/Relic earlier accordingly to prevent you from casting it for 1 or 2 mana.
The benefit of Ghoultree is that it is also a good bluffing measure, because if you don't have one in your opening hand, it will make your opponent blow up his Crypt/Relic earlier nevertheless in fear of it.
However, a graveyard with about 8 creatures in it is worth to be removed often times so I don't know how big the benefit is or if there is one at all.
What seems to be out of question is that it's a very good card against Cage and decks that are not able to remove him like RUG.