Depends on the matchup. in a racing matchup, i'm very willing to just go upstairs with bolt, and use snapcaster to flashback it.Quote:
Originally Posted by crush
in attrition matchups, i'll very often just snapcaster ponder early on.
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Depends on the matchup. in a racing matchup, i'm very willing to just go upstairs with bolt, and use snapcaster to flashback it.Quote:
Originally Posted by crush
in attrition matchups, i'll very often just snapcaster ponder early on.
re: this, I believe Snapcaster Mage is excellent.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
I liked SCM too. It was expensive, but being able to increase my clock with SCM Bolt, or dig for answers with SCM BS/Ponder felt ok. It just felt very mana intensive.
Jarvis, did the SCMs/TNNs ever get boarded out for you?
could see boarding out TNN vs combo, but I don't think I'd board out Snapcaster (at least no more than 1).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
Interesting, I was boarding out Gurmags vs combo typically (habit from Grixis) but I guess TNN is sometimes slower to come down, so I can see taking that out instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
Most of my trouble was flipping delvers post board when I brought in Needles+Jitte and boarded out spells
Do you bring in more than 1 surgical vs combo decks, like say Show and Tell? I had one SnT pilo ask why I didn't board all of mine in. I only brought in 1 for the lulz really.
Congrats on the finish! Did Jeremy, or the older guy with the buzzcut and glasses win? If the former, give him my congrats. He was my one well-deserved loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
buzzcut and glasses dude named Ian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
@ Jarvisyu: Congrats for this great result! Great!
I'm curious to know...
In this matchup:
"r4: 2-1 win over white (splash FTK) eldrazi taxes"
How to set up the game?
I want to defend my delver in first turns, beat with it and close the game with Nemesis.
This is my strategy for now.
What are the card in which you focused with your removal?
I normally reserve:
- Abrupt for Chalice of the Void and Umezawa's Jitte
- Sometimes Daze on Mimic, only if I have not Bolt
- Bolt for Mimic in response to other creature (like Smasher or greatest)
What problems You've had in this set?
Any advice to improve?
:laugh:
It feels like a pretty bad matchup, but here's what I've noticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
You basically need to be the aggressor, otherwise you'll be buried by an unending number of giant creatures (Seer/Smasher, even Thalia 1.0 / 2.0 tag team to be a real nuisance).
I try not to aggressively cast Force, but I think this is a matchup where it's acceptable to do so, given how your cards line up. Cavern of Souls also blanks a lot of your counters, so using them earlier rather than later helps a lot.
I got VERY fortunate to win this match, although TNN is an all-star here.
Hi Jarvis, thanks to reply!Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
I agree with you about the aggressively use of counter in this matchup.
Cavern of Souls is a totally broken card for our counter, and this make many of our resource useless.
Obv Wasteland can stop Cavern but Eldrazi matchup need a lot of land control (Sol lands give it a lot of time and an exit way by our Daze).
Many time, counter just a blocker like Reshaper give to our creature the way to bring our opponent at Nemesi's finish range.
Obv is a bad matchup, but here we are better than other Delver.deck maybe (better than UR and RUG for sure, better than Team America I don't Know, because 4x Abrupt and 2 Liliana are very good).
Has anyone played with additional Ghost Quarters in the SB as a way to get more than 4 copies of Wasteland/Land Destruction for the relevant matchups? I'm specifically thinking about Eldrazi, 12 Post, and the Delver Mirrors. AFAIK none of these run basics and GC should just be Wasteland 5 & 6.
No. Because its a lousy draw and you waste a land drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by eldub
I would play however, sinkhole.
Imho 4c no needs another Waste effect.
The only very bad land who destroy our plan is Cavern of Souls.
If you need control other delver.deck add Stifle, that you can use in some other matchup (Miracle, Shardless).
Eldrazi and 12 post are weak to Price of Progress, if your meta is full of this deck play 2 PoP in side and win all the game with fast Delver, Deathrite :b: ability, True Name (if you play her) and burn style: bolt in face and Price :laugh:
In 4c we don't wants bad draw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
How do we feel about a Life from the Loam in the sb? I have had one in my sideboard for two tournaments now but have failed to draw it to be able to test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
I might add that it's not just there to buyback wastelands, it's also to buyback my own lands + fuel lavamancer against DnT.
I like Ghost Quarter more with a Delver deck. You just want more free Stone Rains rather than a grinding tool. Note that Ghost Quarter is often better than Wasteland against something like Shardless where they don't have"extra" basics. As for Loam, I don't think this is the right meta for it in Delver decks. Land recursion is basically just for grinding, and the long game decks are currently set up to have way more late game power than any Delver deck: Stage/Depths every turn, Planeswalkers, Entreat, Mentor, Ancestral Vision, Punishing Fire, Batterskull, and so on. Additional counters, or burn, or hard to remove threats like TNN and Sulfuric Vortex are good options against grindy decks. I really dislike trying to out grind something like Loam, Miracles, or Shardless, since doing so is just playing their game rather than yours. And if you have to Loam back Duals against D&T, you've already lost.
I see Life From the Loam in differente 4c sideboarding.
Blais's 4c (4th @ Ovino side event past week) play 1x Loam.
Imho Loam is a great card who, sometimes, can win alone the game.
Is strong but for now I don't find free slot in 15's for her.
By the way, Loam have some good interaction with:
- Deathrite Shaman
- Tarmogoyf
- Gurmag Angler
- Grim Lavamancer
- Wasteland
- Ancient Grudge lol
About Ghost Quarter: i like this 5x Waste in a deck who focus our game on denial, with 4x Stifle. Max 3 colors.
I don't like her in a 4c because we need specific mana for playing, and because we don't focus our game on Denial like RUG.
Just one Stifle change our gameplan.
Is not a casualty who 3xStifle in our deck are 3 meta-slot, like the 2nd Nemesis, the mono-Vendilion.
Don't forget Brainstorm as the main great interaction alongside WasteLoam...
Sure! Brainstorm before Dredge work very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
My list include only the card with a directly interation with yard.
Thanks for advice!
I played a 66-man local yesterday and went 5-2, good for 10th and a beat-up Taiga. Here was my list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Izzet Charm
1 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
// sideboard //
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Arc Trail
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Go for the Throat
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
It felt super powerful, and there's a lot of room for customization based on what kind of meta you expect. Here's a little tournament report with my sideboarding decisions. Hopefully more experienced Delver pilots can tell me if they'd board differently.
Round 1: Jund
Game 1 was a typical Delver game where I stuck an early threat and disrupted my opponent. TNN did work. I always had a creature for Liliana protection.
Game 2 I was stuck on Lands and started with a lackluster mull to 6. I got beat down and couldn't catch up.
Game 3 I kept an unexciting 6, leaning on the power of Brainstorm. A Bloodbraif Elf whiffed (thankfully), but I couldn't find action for a few turns and got slapped around. I was able to Spell Pierce his Choke, which saved me. Then I topdecked Angler and stabilized. Snapcaster on Go for the Throat took care of the Bloodbraid, and Arc Trail on his Bob and face prevented him from finding more gas, and I pulled out a win.
Out: -4 Force of Will, -1 Daze
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Arc Trail
I didn't bring in Jitte 'cuz I figured he ran four Decays and a Maelstrom Pulse, but maybe I should still run it.
1-0
Round 2: Burn
Game 1 an early Goblin Guide got me some lands and chipped away, but eventually TNN, Delver, and Angler joined the party.
Game 2 my Delver died early, and I couldn't find more threats. He showed me Blood Moon, to boot.
Game 3 was close. I had to Wasteland my own Underground Sea to stop a lethal Price of Progress. He had one card in hand and three Mountains, and upon resolution I was at 4. Since he let me untap, I figured he didn't have Fireblast. So with a Sea and a Volcanic available, I had to decide whether to leave up Izzet Charm to counter something scary or play my Angler to put a clock on him; I opted for the latter and lost to a topdecked Fireblast. (The other card was Blood Moon.) What would you do there?
Out: -2 Wasteland, -1 Kolaghan's Command, -1 Snapcaster Mage
In: +1 Hydroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Umezawa's Jitte
1-1
Round 3: Infect
In hindsight I think I butchered this match. I probably had all the tools to win but didn't use my resources effectively.
Game 1 I landed an early Deathrite and dispatched some of his early threats. He had a double Hierarch opener and was able to poke in for three poison at some point. Then with two cards in hand, he played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy - I've never seen that in Infect lists, is this new tech? I Counterspelled it, but he followed up with a Blighted Agent. I untapped with Deathrite and an Angler, two fetches, a Sea, and a Volcanic and Brainstormed into a Ponder. I fetched and Pondered, finding Delver/Ponder/land. With him at 8, I decided to put lethal on board and make him topdeck a pump spell as opposed to Pondering again for removal - stupid move. He ripped an Invigorate.
Game 2 I K-Commanded an Inkmoth and forced my opponent to use a second Invigorate on the targeted Glistner Elf. We traded resources for a while, and I drew Arc Trail to accompany my Spell Pierce. He had I think two Trops, a Noble Hierarch, and two cards in hand. Greedily I held onto the Arc Trail, hoping to get more value from it if he played another threat. He untapped, Probed me, then Become Immensed. I Pierced it, and he Forced back, and that was it. Learned my lesson there: when in doubt, kill all the things.
Out: -3 Daze, -1 Force of Will
In: +1 Arc Trail, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Pithing Needle
My sideboarding was probably terrible, as I don't have a ton of experience in this matchup. Please help!
1-2
With my back against the wall, I figured I couldn't make top8 but could possibly squeak into 10th if I won out.
Round 4: RG Lands
Game 1 I landed an early Deathrite and TNN. A clock plus disruption sealed the deal.
Game 2 he had natural combo in hand, rendering useless my Surgical Extraction in hand. I drew Pithing Needle on turn 3, but he had two Stages. So I figured he would copy something in response, making me unable to name the card he copied because there would still be a card named Thespian's Stage active. I chumped with a flipped Delver and then died.
Game 3 was a slog. I had a double Deathrite hand and Hydroblasted an early Vortex. He couldn't Loam profitably, as I would just exile all the business. Eventually he Wasteland-ed all my Underground Seas, making it so that I had to use the second Deathrite to produce black to pay for the other one's activation. Two Maze of Iths shut down my Snapcaster and Delver. I countered basically anything he played except Loam. I was lucky that he didn't find another Punishing Fire for a bunch of turns, but he had to naturally draw for a while out of fear of my Deathrites. Poking away for 2, then Wastelanding a Maze got me the win. Great games.
Out: -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Daze
In: +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge
Maybe I should've boarded out K-Command, but I thought being able to get back a Deathrite could be valuable.
2-2
Round 5: Stoneforge Miracles
This was a successful local player who said to me before the match, "Delver, huh? I've been wanting to play Delver matchups all day!" I responded, "Well, you got your wish."
Game 1 I Bolted his Stoneforge, which fetched up Batterskull. I then drew K-Command and figured the game would go well for me. I landed a TNN, he responded with a Counterbalance. It blind flipped a Swords when I tried to Spell Pierce a Brainstorm in response to my Ponder. A couple turns went by, and he landed Jace, good for a four-mana Brainstorm. He then hard-cast Batterskull. I cast K-Command end of turn, which he Forced because Counterbalance revealed a land. Then I untapped, played Snapcaster on K-Command, and he scooped.
Game 2 was a similar affair. An early TNN found a Jitte and smashed for a whole lot. I won the game with five cards in hand.
Out: -3 Daze, -1 Force of Will
In: +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Umezawa's Jitte
Maybe I should've taken out an Angler or two 'cuz it's terrible against Swords and Jace's -1 and played, say, a Flusterstorm instead. I saw Karakas in game 1, so I thought he might be playing Wizards and left in my Wastelands. I don't know if Jitte is right or not, but I remember someone saying that they brought it in against Miracles. And since he seemed to be playing more creatures, I thought it couldn't hurt. Might be wrong, though.
3-2
Round 6: Storm
I got paired up against a 10-pointer, who asked me if I'd concede to allow him to draw into the top8. I declined, seeing as I thought I had a shot to win a prize.
Game 1 I landed an early Delver, and he cantripped a bunch, trying to find more lands after I Wastelanded his second Trop. He eventually found a Sea and cast Dark Ritual, which I Pierced. I had Bolt, Snapcaster, Deathrite, and Angler in hand with three lands in play. He Duressed me, and I opted not to Bolt in response so as to leave open Snap+Pierce. With lethal in hand, my opponent cast Infernal Tutor with a full grip. I didn't think he could find anything to go off, so I let it resolve. He searched for an LED, cast it, then passed. I Snap+Bolted and attacked for lethal.
Game 2 my opponent Duressed my Force in my six-card hand, leaving me with a Ponder, Counterspell, and three lands. I Pondered, shuffled, and drew something inconsequential. Then my opponent tried to go off but Infernal Tutored with four mana floating, leaving him unable to Past in Flames+Rituals. He could've still PiFed and flashed back a Probe, hoping to find a black source; instead, he cast Tendrils for 14. I played my second land, leaving up Counterspell. Then I Brainstormed into Surgical, which I cast on Tendrils to earn a concession.
Out: -2 Lightning Bolt, -1 Kolaghan's Command, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 True-Name Nemesis, -1 Gurmag Angler
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Marsh Casualties
I brought in Casualties in case he played Empty the Warrens and left in two Bolts for the clock with Snapcaster.
4-2
Standings had me in 18th with a glut of 12-pointers, so I thought I had no shot to make 10th. But I played it out anyway.
Round 7: Aluren
Game 1 I think my early Deathrite died, but a TNN soon joined the party. I was luckily able to counter Aluren and get a Delver to stick. I revealed a Bolt when he was at 9, and he scooped.
Game 2 his T1 Carpet of Flowers made my Spell Pierce awkward. I couldn't get enough of a clock to prevent the combo.
Game 3 I landed an early Delver and Arc Trailed his Strix and his face. Snapcaster in hand forced my opponent into a tough Thoughtseize, as I had both Bolt and Izzet Charm. Eventually he tried to Deluge away my Delver, but I cast Izzet Charm, and he conceded.
Out: -2 Daze, -1 Force of Will, -1 Gurmag Angler
In: +1 Arc Trail, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Umezawa's Jitte
This is almost certainly wrong. I figured the only thing I had to fight over was Aluren and maybe Deluge, so I shaved on countermagic in favor of spot removal. Arc Trail isn't instant speed, and Jitte is probably too slow. Probably should've left in the countermagic and just brought in one Go for the Throat.
So at 5-2 I squeaked into the money and felt pretty good about the deck. Had I played better in round 3, I might've been able to top8 (though my matchups would've been different, and perhaps I would've missed). Some thoughts about the list:
- Snapcaster and TNN were the all-stars yesterday.
- My mana was great. I rarely struggled to make land drops and had access to my colors when I needed them. A part of me is considering a Taiga in place of the second Trop, but that would make cards like Counterspell and Daze worse. Haven't tested, so I'm unsure. Three Wastelands felt like enough to do what I needed to do with them, too.
- The Counterspell was nice in place of the fourth Daze. Since my curve is higher, I wanted to Daze less often. Counterspell is a way better topdeck, though the :u::u: cost is real.
- The room was particularly fair, so K-Command did some good things. Instant-speed discard later in the game is sweet, and the 2-for-1s can be insane. In conjunction with Snapcaster, you can grind well.
- Izzet Charm was amazing, too. I killed creatures and Spell Pierced and could've used it in certain dire situations when I needed to see more cards. Definitely sleeving it up again.
- The sideboard is what I'm most uncertain about. Hydroblast was to help me against Blood Moon, Lands, and Burn, but it didn't feel essential. Marsh Casualties could've been a different sweeper like Fire Covenant, though I liked the cheap cost. Since DnT apparently boards out a fair number of their 1-toughness guys against black decks, maybe I should consider a different card than Casualties. And Arc Trail did some nice things and could've been great against DnT. The sorcery speed is a huge liability, though. I might go back to Darkblast instead, but it's close. And I didn't think I needed a card like Painful Truths because I had the Snapcaster plan. A part of me considered Night's Whisper because it's easier to flashback with Snapcaster. Definitely open to suggestions on the board.
Let me know how you would've played those turns in question and if you would've sideboarded differently. The idea of a Delver deck with only three Dazes and three Wastelands is probably anathema to lots of you, so I'd like to hear if you'd build the deck differently and any critiques of the list overall. I think the deck is strong and will be playing it some more.
Thanks for reading!
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by theMonster
gratz to your solid finish. A really freaky list with the 1off Izzet Charm/Counterspell/Kolaghans Command you played :wink:
Currently I´m also moving to a more "midrangey/controlish" list with 2 TNN/2 SCM & 3 TS.
One question, how happy were you with your 2 Spell Pierces in the MD? I played 2-3 Pierces in the main over the last 1 year or something and I am still not super happy about them and felt that it is the most weak card in the main. I boarded them out alot. I only needed them for the combo & burn MU´s but thats it. Plus combo is not that present atm...
That´s the reason I try 3 Thoughtseize in place of 3 Spell Pierce right now because they´re better vs DnT, Elves and Eldrazi for example and also good vs combo if I face one.
I played a 4c Delver list without Goyfs and 3 TS at GP Lille last year (Goddick DTT build) and found the TS ok.
Whats your opinion/experience on that?