[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

I tend to get paired against difficult matchups whenever I decide to run RUG, e.g. RG Combo Lands or MUD (though I was able to beat MUD with some lucky and well-timed counterspells). My local metagame is quite competitive, but there are a fair number of people who like to run decks that cast big mana spells or that operate on atypical axes (e.g. mana-less dredge, 12-post, etc.).

I think this deck wants some sort of trump card to win matchups like these. I was considering running Price of Progress and/or Sulfuric Vortex as a method of punching in the last points of damage, as often what happens is I can get through for 12-16 points but then the opponent is able to establish some sort of lock. I am also considering running a Basic land or two to deal with the threat of Blood Moon and Wasteland. I liked the idea of trying Eidolon of the Great Revel to win against decks that rely on lower-CMC cards, with the added benefit of basically being an auto-win against Storm decks if unanswered.

In an ideal world, I'd be able to face-off every round against Ux Combo, janky midrange, and durdly control decks -- but this is not always the case. I am wondering if anyone has tested some unusual sideboard cards lately that make a big impact on otherwise difficult matchups?

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Originally Posted by wcm8

In an ideal world, I'd be able to face-off every round against Ux Combo, janky midrange, and durdly control decks -- but this is not always the case. I am wondering if anyone has tested some unusual sideboard cards lately that make a big impact on otherwise difficult matchups?

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I'm not sure if you have ever tried Winter Orb but it is usually rather good versus any mana-hungry decks.

Hey guys I am new in this thread and with the deck as well. I'm playing legacy since 1 year ago, playing TES. I just migrated into canadian since it's my favourite legacy deck, I already have seen a lot of videos and read a lot about the deck, but obviously I'm a newbie. Nonetheless I have played 2 legacy events with this deck with decent results. The first I went 2-2, winning against affinity and esper, losing to burn and team america. The second was today and I lost in semis to elves, but really i lost to a missplay that cost me the game. I went first in the swiss with 4-1. Tomorrow I will give a quick report.

Greets


So I will take a time to write a tiny report, don't expect too much insight because I did not take notes, but my intention is to get advice in how to sideboard. My list was RUG54, 3 pierces, 2 forked, 1 probe. I would have ran 2/2/2 split but I didn't have flusterstrom(the only card i'm missing from the deck) so I choose to run 3 pierces.

This was my sideboard:

2 Rough//Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember (I expected a lot of goyfs, but it's a card that I don't like maindeck since it's dead in some matchups)

Round 1. Shardless BUG, a friend of mine who eventually got to the finals

Game 1, im on the draw and all of my threats get answered and my goose can't beat his goyf.
+2 submerge, +1 library, +1 pithing needle, +1 dismember, +1 vendilion, -4 fows,-1 probe, -1 pierce. I don't remeber if I sided in the REBs, thinking about it I would probably do it.

Game 2, if I remember correctly I wastelanded/stiled some of his lands and a delver took the game for me.
+3 fows, -3 dazes.

Game 3, he gets stuck in 3 lands and I have a goyf and a mongoose in play, in his turn he brainstorms, he finds a creeping tar pit and gives me turn. I wasteland his creeping, swing and in the next turn he lands a goyf. At this point I have a Fow and a bolt in hand, and I draw a brainstorm, he is at 10 life. The brainstorm finds a submerge, so i submerge his goyf, swing and his upkeep bolt him for the win.

2-1 (1-0)

Round 2. Burn, i'm on the draw as well.

Game 1, I know he is on burn so I keep my 7 with 2 goyfs. He lands a guide and it gets me a land. I don't really remember what I did but I remember that at the end of the game I had 2 goyfs and a goose in play, and he had a lavamancer, and 3-4 cards in hand, and 3 lands. I'm in 9 life and I have lethal for next turn, I have 4 lands, 1 is an untapped wasteland, but i'm without counters. He goes price, I sac 2 of my lands, but before he just goes lightning bolt and fireblast.

+2 Rough, +1 Vendilion, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Destructive Revelry, -1 Gitaxian Probe, -4 Stifle

Game 2, I mulligan to 6, however, I can bolt all of his creatures and 2 gooses puts him in a 3 turn clock, and he can't beat me before.

-1 vendilion, +1 stifle.

Game 3, he mulligans to 6 and gets stuck with 1 land for some turns, so I can get those time to develop my board as well to find counters, if I remember correctly i inished this game with a lot of points of life.

2-1 (2-0)

Round 3, versus Lands, On the play.

I won't comment a lot on this matchup, was the only match in all day that I lost and I felt hopeless. So I would appreciate input on how to win this matchup, altough I realize that it has to be dificult. Game 1 he comboed me, I had to wasteland his maze to get my goyf to swing, and he had a punishing for my delver.

I think I did +1 needle, +1 destructive revelry, +1 surgical extraction +1 sylvan library, -2 stifles -2 forked bolt.

Game 2 I needle the thespian stage, but he port-locked me out of the game and I conceded since I was in a very unfavourable position.

0-2 (2-1).

Round4, versus Ooze reanimator. On the draw(sigh...).

Game 1, I land a T1 delver. he turn 1 goes swamp, lotus, dark ritual, buried alive. I have a FoW in hand but I don't know what to do, but just I remember that I read somewhere that against reanimator you have to counter the entomb. So I extrapolate the situation and decided to counter it. My delver doesn't flip for 2 turns, and he has to therapy himself to get a griselbrand in the graveyard. My delver inally flips to a daze and he is in topdeck mode. I'm pretty scared since I only have a daze to counter and he has 4 lands. The turn before he is dead, he tries to play a necrotic ooze but I daze it for the win. I don't remember if the ooze resolving would gave him the win anyway.

+2 REB, +1 vendilion, +1 grafdiggers cage, +1 needle, +1 surgical extraction, -2 forked, -2 bolt, -2 goose

Game 2 was a quick one, I stifle his first land and he gets stuck with 1 island in play, so I counter some of his cantrips and in that time I can end the game.

2-0 (3-1)

So, the standings are up and im 4th in the swiss, but somehow I get paired with a guy with 7 points so I have to play.

He is on goblins and I know it, in fact in the last 3 legacy tournaments that I went I played against this guy always in the last round of swiss. His deck scares me since he plays chalice on the sideboard. So I gotta respect that. I'm on the play by the way.

Game 1, I keep a nice hand, with bolt and forked bolt. I ponder T1, don't like what I see and shuffle, he plays a vial that finds a fow. I play a goyf T2 and T3, and he has 2 lackeys in play. He wasteland my volcanic so i cannot kill his goblins. We are both mana screwed, and I can't attack with my goyfs because I don't want his lackeys to touch me. So we spend like 3-4 turns drawing and passing. At the end I find a fetch, get a volcanic, get his lackeys out of the board and win the game some turns later.

+2 rough, +1 destructive revelry, +1 ancient grudge, +1 pithing needle. -1 probe, -1 pierce, -(some number of stifles/dazes)

Game 2, I mulligan to 6 to find a counter for his chalice. He plays a lands and passes, I have a delver and a pierce and no other counters. Since I know he has chalices now, I play a land and pass, and he goes chalice on 1 that I counter. I finished quickly after that since he relied so much on his chalice resolving he told me later.

2-0 (4-1)

So I'm first on the swiss getting into top8.

Quarters, against Food Chain.

First game was very ********-esque, i can hit his lands while a Delver kills him.

In: 2 Submerge 2 Red Elemental Blast 1 Vendillion Clique 1 Destructive Revelry 1 Pithing Needle
Out, i don't remember but I think something like 4 dazes, 2 stifles

Second game he can resolve a manipulate fate and he gets 3 griffins in the exile, while im pressuring with 1, later 2, later 3 delvers. I rembember that we were at topdeck mode, he casting his griffins and I cound't attack him with my delvers because he had a relic so he could cast again the griffins. So at one moment I cast a ponder and see mongoose, needle, land. I draw the needle naming relic, attack with my delvers and next turn stick the goose for the win. He later told me that he did not expect the needle naming relic.

Semis vs Elves

First game, i stick some goyfs and he can't deal with them and dies pretty fast.
In: pithing needle, cage, dismember, 2 rough// tumble
Out: 2 spell pierce, 3 dazes.

Second game I can put some pressure but i don't have a counter for his glimpse and he goes off.
Third game was when I played so bad. I had a goose and a tarmo and he has like 12-15 creatures. Only a rough can save me. An I topdeck it. So I wipe his board but he saves a shaman. I attack and pass, he plays the chaman and passes. Next turn I draw a delver and attack, leaving him with 2 life. He does nothing and passes. My delver doesn't flip but at this point im thinking that i'va already won.So I attack not realizing that my goose doesn't have ********, so he blocks the delver, decays the goyf and eats a card of my gy, leaving him with 1 HP. I had a fetch in hand so I realise my fatal mistake at this point. Next turn he orders for a behemoth to block my goose, and I draw a delver and pass. My delver doesn't flip in 4 turns(I only draw lands) and I lose. The karma was strong in this game

Overall pretty happy, I love the deck and it feels so powerful. When the things go right it's almost unbeatable. Cheers.

Last Saturday I played in a tournament in Rotterdam (NL). The meta was fairly great for RUG Delver.

Meta:
Sneak & Show: 3
ANT: 3
Burn: 3
Grixis Delver: 2
Sultai Delver: 2
Pox: 2
Merfolk: 2
Mud: 1
Reanimator: 1
Mono W Prison: 1
Shardless Bug: 1
Lands: 1
Tempo Trash: 1
Maverick: 1
UG Infect: 1
Oldschool Sneak Attack: 1
Esper Blade: 1
Goblin Prison: 1

I pretty happy about my list, I really liked the 2 Dismember in the main. Normally I play Forked Bolt.

Main:
4x Delver
4x Goose
4x Tarmo
4x FOW
4x Daze
4x Stifle
2x Pierce
4x Bolt
2x Dismember
4x BS
4x Ponder
2x Probe
4x Tarn
4x Misty
3x Volcanic
3x Tropical
4x Wasteland

Side:
1x Needle
1x Cage
1x Surgical
1x Grudge
1x Grip
1x Vortex
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
2x Rough//Tumble
3x Pyroblast

Matchups:
0-2 Pox: No fun, didn't saw enough of my counter spells and couldn't protect my threats nor manabase.
1-2 Burn: The guy didn't own any fetch lands, so Stifle was pretty dead game one and I saw 3. Game to I manage to land a Delver and a Goose and out raced him. Game 3 I had bad draws and no counter magic to stop him in time.
1-2 Mono R prison: Game 1 Chalice + 3Sphere, game 2 I grinded out with a Goyf and a Goose. Goose was still 1/1 so could attack through his Bridge.
2-1 Esper Blade: Game 1 he couldn't keep up so I won. Game 2 I landed Vortex, he had Disenchant and Batterskull kills me. Game 3 I controlled him out the game and my Delver killed him.
2-0 Mono W Staxx: I had an answer for everything he played.

The first 3 matchups where really bad.. Unlucky pairing I guess.

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..

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Originally Posted by mextremartini

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..

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pack more winter orbs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mextremartini

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..

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Similar to mud or any other prison based match up. You just need to play tight and stay vigilant against lock pieces. I haven't played the match up personally, but it's not something that worries me.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by mextremartini

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..

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The deck is everywhere on Trice and I have not lost to the deck yet. 2 Dismembers maindeck helps.

A fellow RUG player on cockatrice saw me and wanted me to post my list so here it is:
Stock 54
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
2 dismember

Sideboard
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 rough // tumble
2 submerge
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 vendilion clique
1 sulfur elemental
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 sulfuric vortex

This configuration is great if you expect all the top decks of the format. Well I say top decks I mean real decks so everything except dredge and mud/stompy those sorts of decks. Which is mainly due to the fact that the sideboard lacks graveyard hate and actual artifact hate. What it makes up for though is solid singletons that spread multiple match ups like null rod -> Storm/miracles/stoneforge and Extraction ->graveyard/combo/miracles (shuffle effect in resp to top or a snapcaster counter). Just don't take this list to a weekly if you know it'll be like 15 people with 4+ fringe decks that you should just meta game for.

I'm also probably going to be posting a way overdue tournament report for gp SeaTac soon. A lot of stuff happened in my life directly prior to that tournament at which point I wasn't even sure if I would go. I did go and make day 2 which was good. Then after that I was super busy moving along with other stressful things. That aside I'll probably post the report in a day or two I just need to finish editing it.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Sideboard
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 rough // tumble
2 submerge
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 vendilion clique
1 sulfur elemental
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 sulfuric vortex

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Very nice board. I agree the Null Rod, Vortex, and possibly the 2nd Flusterstorm are the only debatable options.

Substitute Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge, True-Name Nemesis, Grafdigger's Cage, or Life From the Loam as needed.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

A fellow RUG player on cockatrice saw me and wanted me to post my list so here it is:
Stock 54
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
2 dismember

Sideboard
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 rough // tumble
2 submerge
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 vendilion clique
1 sulfur elemental
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 sulfuric vortex

This configuration is great if you expect all the top decks of the format. Well I say top decks I mean real decks so everything except dredge and mud/stompy those sorts of decks. Which is mainly due to the fact that the sideboard lacks graveyard hate and actual artifact hate. What it makes up for though is solid singletons that spread multiple match ups like null rod -> Storm/miracles/stoneforge and Extraction ->graveyard/combo/miracles (shuffle effect in resp to top or a snapcaster counter). Just don't take this list to a weekly if you know it'll be like 15 people with 4+ fringe decks that you should just meta game for.

I'm also probably going to be posting a way overdue tournament report for gp SeaTac soon. A lot of stuff happened in my life directly prior to that tournament at which point I wasn't even sure if I would go. I did go and make day 2 which was good. Then after that I was super busy moving along with other stressful things. That aside I'll probably post the report in a day or two I just need to finish editing it.

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You aint. Fucking around with miracles

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Originally Posted by keys

Very nice board. I agree the Null Rod, Vortex, and possibly the 2nd Flusterstorm are the only debatable options.

Substitute Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge, True-Name Nemesis, Grafdigger's Cage, or Life From the Loam as needed.

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Pithing needle I've definitely tried, but I actually think null rod is strictly better in that slot. In terms of cards you want to name with pithing needle imo: Top, Stoneforge, Vial, Liliana, Jace. The latter two are where needle can shine particularly vs something like shardless bug or esper deathblade. Null rod on the other hand hits the first 3 cards in addition to storm. I think hitting storm plus the primary needle targets is a huge advantage. Needle can help preemptively shut down answers like Liliana/Jace, but those are easier to answer than skilled storm pilots.

Vortex is just for the miracles match up and the stoneblade variants that are few and far between. It's just such a beating for miracles that it has earned its spot in my board. The second flusterstorm I actually like more than third pyroblast. They both do their own thing, but the only match up where you really want the third pyroblast is miracles. Conveniently the second flusterstorm is still really good here helping against terminus, council's judgment, etc. Don't get me wrong the third pyroblast is much better against miracles hitting counterbalance and snapcaster. I just find the flexibility that the second flusterstorm brings to the table in other match ups more useful than the third pyroblast.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

You aint. Fucking around with miracles

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I find that match up to be very difficult. At the very least postboard we have 10 or so dead cards (Wasteland, Secondary removal, Daze otd / Bolt otp). That match up can just be so brutal and it's quite popular at my lgs. I board the following against them:
Otp +2 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, krosan grip, null rod, vendilion clique, sulfur elemental, sylvan library, sulfuric vortex, surgical extraction // - 2 dismember, 4 wasteland, 4 bolt (if they show mentor this can change to more dazes), 1 daze
Otd same // - 2 dismember, 4 wasteland, 4 daze, 1 bolt

Bolt and daze are both absurdly bad against them. Daze can still be useful otp I think to some extent. Bolt has now proven to be somewhat better since they actually have a target other than ambush snap/clique. Despite that I really don't want either postboard, but there's only so much room in the sideboard and miracles is one of many decks to prepare for.

Be crazy, play a manabase of wooded foothills and misty rainforests, play a dryad arbor in the board. :P

Hey, random Thresh questions as i try to improve my play...

#1: Say I am on the draw in the blind and have an opener of a couple fetches, Wasteland, Delver, Ponder, and bolt; a typical very good hand. If my opponent opens with Tarn into Tundra (indicating Counter/Top) and Ponders with his mana, do you immediately Waste it on your turn?

I feel like i make this move often, against a lot of decks, and one guy raged at me that i was an idiot, lol. I dont see why not, though. Its a good target, it resets the game, i'm no worse off, and it might completely fck him over. In the game where the guy tilted off, it did in fact mana screw him. Is it more typical to play a threat instead? I def do this against MUD or Eldrazi when they have a turn 1 Tomb.

#2: I'm in game 3 against Re-animator, on the draw. My opener is pretty sweet, has a Cage, cantrips, and threats, but lacks a Force/Daze. I keep it after he mulls to 6.... only to get nutted on when his turn 1 is Ritual into Entomb into Reanimate. Now theres a Grizzy in play and i auto-lose.

Is it basically a requirement to mull into a Force against this deck? I feel like i lose to big resolved creatures far too often, would a couple sideboard Vapor Snags be too crazy?

#3: On the play against Storm. I have a good hand with Stifle, lands, Tarmo, etc, but no Force/Daze. On turn 1 i Ponder and look for counter magic, but dont see any. Turn 2 i play Tarmo to get the beats going, but leave myself vulnerable.... and the inevitable happens and storms off turn 2.

Is it usually correct to get your threat on the table? I could have Stifled the storm trigger, after all his doings, and saved myself had i not tapped out. Maybe this is a 'it depends' situation and i shouldnt tap out for Tarmo without having counter backup. I feel like i'm punting a lot of games by playing a threat, only to lose on the following turn that Stifle could have stopped.




Thanks for any replies, these small nuance situations is where i need to improve my game.

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Originally Posted by LewisCBR

Hey, random Thresh questions as i try to improve my play...

#1: Say I am on the draw in the blind and have an opener of a couple fetches, Wasteland, Delver, Ponder, and bolt; a typical very good hand. If my opponent opens with Tarn into Tundra (indicating Counter/Top) and Ponders with his mana, do you immediately Waste it on your turn?

I feel like i make this move often, against a lot of decks, and one guy raged at me that i was an idiot, lol. I dont see why not, though. Its a good target, it resets the game, i'm no worse off, and it might completely fck him over. In the game where the guy tilted off, it did in fact mana screw him. Is it more typical to play a threat instead? I def do this against MUD or Eldrazi when they have a turn 1 Tomb.

#2: I'm in game 3 against Re-animator, on the draw. My opener is pretty sweet, has a Cage, cantrips, and threats, but lacks a Force/Daze. I keep it after he mulls to 6.... only to get nutted on when his turn 1 is Ritual into Entomb into Reanimate. Now theres a Grizzy in play and i auto-lose.

Is it basically a requirement to mull into a Force against this deck? I feel like i lose to big resolved creatures far too often, would a couple sideboard Vapor Snags be too crazy?

#3: On the play against Storm. I have a good hand with Stifle, lands, Tarmo, etc, but no Force/Daze. On turn 1 i Ponder and look for counter magic, but dont see any. Turn 2 i play Tarmo to get the beats going, but leave myself vulnerable.... and the inevitable happens and storms off turn 2.

Is it usually correct to get your threat on the table? I could have Stifled the storm trigger, after all his doings, and saved myself had i not tapped out. Maybe this is a 'it depends' situation and i shouldnt tap out for Tarmo without having counter backup. I feel like i'm punting a lot of games by playing a threat, only to lose on the following turn that Stifle could have stopped.

Thanks for any replies, these small nuance situations is where i need to improve my game.

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#1 - It also may indicate that they may have bad mana (IME, I fetch basics unless I have to fetch duals -> AKA not enough lands.) This is reinforced that they're fetching before your turn to get around Stifle, meaning they probably can't handle being Stifled for a turn (so waste is also bad for them.) It also means they probably have Plow. This means Delver is bad. Your options are to Ponder for Daze/Force and hope they cast CB next turn or to Waste them. You should pick blind Waste here because:
* you may nat-draw your counterspell
* your opponent may not have another land, lack a fetch, or only have basics; leaving them cut off at the moment.
** Bonus. They may be forced to brainstorm.
** Bonus 2. They may be unable to plow your Delver the next turn.
* you have enough lands, so spending the waste now is probably the best value out of it you'll get.

#2 - Maybe? You were meta'd/unlucky. In the decks I typically play I still have the outs of Plow/Lily, or even bitterblossom. Given this, I normally worry about locking them out of continuing to build a board while I make my way towards clearing their board.

#3 - Honestly; I'm super cautious when I play against storm. I would've left up stifle T1, held Stifle + cast ponder T2, Then casted Goyf while holding Stifle T3 if I made my third land drop*; until they either took it away, I found other countermagic, or I killed them via stifle. Don't leave yourself open and they have to have multiple discard spells to get you. They'll likely guess Spell Pierce or Brainstorm if you don't have a bad poker face when they fetch. Never let your guard down.

*Honestly, if you didn't draw a third land, Countermagic, or Delver after your opener, a ponder, and 3 draws; you're really unlucky. That's over half of your deck you're not finding in 14 cards.


I'm happy to be corrected by more canadian players; but I'm pretty sure on all three of these. #1 your delver is dead if you cast it, bolt is a waste, ponder is a waste given you have a threat, removal, and can dig a card deeper by waiting a turn and stalling the board; among the other benefits. #2, it's pretty unlucky. They'll always try to go off, but they often win the counter war via discard or similar anyway. #3 You killed yourself IMO. They may duress you, but then you'd lose with countermagic anyway.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

#3 - Honestly; I'm super cautious when I play against storm. I would've left up stifle T1, held Stifle + cast ponder T2, Then casted Goyf while holding Stifle T3 if I made my third land drop*; until they either took it away, I found other countermagic, or I killed them via stifle. Don't leave yourself open and they have to have multiple discard spells to get you. They'll likely guess Spell Pierce or Brainstorm if you don't have a bad poker face when they fetch. Never let your guard down.

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If they're on ANT and you're on the play I'd say an aggressive T1 play is OK. TES, or on the draw and I'd hold up Stifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LewisCBR

Hey, random Thresh questions as i try to improve my play...

#1: Say I am on the draw in the blind and have an opener of a couple fetches, Wasteland, Delver, Ponder, and bolt; a typical very good hand. If my opponent opens with Tarn into Tundra (indicating Counter/Top) and Ponders with his mana, do you immediately Waste it on your turn?

I feel like i make this move often, against a lot of decks, and one guy raged at me that i was an idiot, lol. I dont see why not, though. Its a good target, it resets the game, i'm no worse off, and it might completely fck him over. In the game where the guy tilted off, it did in fact mana screw him. Is it more typical to play a threat instead? I def do this against MUD or Eldrazi when they have a turn 1 Tomb.

#2: I'm in game 3 against Re-animator, on the draw. My opener is pretty sweet, has a Cage, cantrips, and threats, but lacks a Force/Daze. I keep it after he mulls to 6.... only to get nutted on when his turn 1 is Ritual into Entomb into Reanimate. Now theres a Grizzy in play and i auto-lose.

Is it basically a requirement to mull into a Force against this deck? I feel like i lose to big resolved creatures far too often, would a couple sideboard Vapor Snags be too crazy?

#3: On the play against Storm. I have a good hand with Stifle, lands, Tarmo, etc, but no Force/Daze. On turn 1 i Ponder and look for counter magic, but dont see any. Turn 2 i play Tarmo to get the beats going, but leave myself vulnerable.... and the inevitable happens and storms off turn 2.

Is it usually correct to get your threat on the table? I could have Stifled the storm trigger, after all his doings, and saved myself had i not tapped out. Maybe this is a 'it depends' situation and i shouldnt tap out for Tarmo without having counter backup. I feel like i'm punting a lot of games by playing a threat, only to lose on the following turn that Stifle could have stopped.

Thanks for any replies, these small nuance situations is where i need to improve my game.

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#1 Generally it is bad to waste without a threat in play. It essentially does nothing. Yes you've reset the game, but that has no real impact. For waste to have a lasting impact you need a threat pressuring his life total to leverage the mana denial. This is a common mistake people make when first playing a tempo deck. I know Jacob Wilson has a video where he explicitly states I'll try to update the post with it later.

Now there will be some times that you do this where it does completely wreck someone. It's unlikely, but it can happen. I played against Glenn Jones once ( he was on 4c delver I was on rug) and he did this too me. This was more so due to the fact that I was on a mul to 6 and led Volc -> ponder. I didn't really have anything better to do other than land pass bluff stifle. In this scenario it's completely different because he read that turn 1 waste was right. There's definitely plays like this that if you don't think about them before the game begins a skilled player can read you and end the game there. It's food for thought, but as a general rule of thumb don't waste turn 1.

#2 Against reanimator they go off extremely fast. If you don't have any other form of interaction then playing out the cage is correct. If you have a daze/force + cage then I would lead on a threat followed by turn 2 cage. Having a threat in play again gives you a way to leverage the cage against them. It forces them to find the answer to cage in a timely manner. If you lead on cage then they already know what they need to look for and gives them a lot of information for their cantrips.

This combo deck in particular is often a coin flip. I won against Chase Hansen in a local GPT a while back in the top 8. At least one of our three games just boiling down to who was otp. After talking with him he agreed that at least part of the time it just boils down to who's otd/otp. Don't let this discourage you or toss a solid hand with daze + cantrip + threat just because it doesn't have force. Vapor snag is horrible if you really want to put reanimator in it's place just run 3+ forms of graveyard based interaction ie Extraction, Cage being the most versatile.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post900138

#3 Storm is a combo deck that can rarely go off turn 2. It's possible, but unless they have information they will wait most of the time. Having played that deck some myself it doesn't win turn 1 - 2 often against blue decks. It's too risky and a skilled storm pilot with bide their time until they get disruption and know the coast is clear.

As for your line with a hand of Stifle, Goyf, Lands there's a lot to consider. If this is game 1 and they don't know what you're on holding stifle up turn 1 followed by goyf turn 2 and ponder turn 3 is the best. There's a chance they blindly run into stifle. They will also be wary of any untapped blue fetch and wait to go off until they have more information.

Stifling a storm trigger is a pipe dream. Just don't think about it. The majority of the time against RUG Delver storm can do something like Ritual, ritual, Infernal, Past in flames, ritual, ritual, recycle discard taking a stifle since that's the only relevant thing left, kill you. It just won't happen unless you're playing against a complete amateur storm player. Always just try to stifle the first fetch you see against them. The same goes for daze I usually try to daze the first spell like a cantrip or an infernal tutor their using to get another piece of fast mana. By the time they actually combo off daze is usually dead.

I think you're feeling like there's no other lines then what's in your hand. RUG Delver plays 8 free counterspells, stifle and a mix of spell snares and pierces. That being said the deck can be very deceiving and people will often run into counterspell A while trying to play around C or something like that. This article in particular might help shed some light on what I'm trying to explain:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/bluffing/
The formats discussed are out of context, but in legacy the risk reward is much higher. Your opponents will think twice about fetching into an untapped land on your side if they know you're on RUG Delver.

Speaking of that, i don't think its ever possible to stifle a storm.

The most i've ever stifled was a cascade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Speaking of that, i don't think its ever possible to stifle a storm.

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I believe it happened on camera sometime last year. Either way, both of you still lose the game in question if you don't hold it up T2. My line has a reasonable chance of stalling until he can Threat + have protection ready. If your ponder is really good, or your draw is a brainstorm, it's quite possible to instead Ponder-> hold up Force + Delver. If you goyf, you just lose T2.

That said, it's also clear (to Zombie, who I agree with) that I'm talking about TES where as if you're talking about ANT; it may be safe.

On #1, I'll clarify that I realize that usually T1 waste is bad, but in this case we've crossed off every card unless you want to wing a Ponder for interaction which is, fair enough, 44.4%. If, however, you instant lose; you can increase that to 52.4% by just wasting T1 and buying that extra draw; among all the other bonuses I mentioned since he's indicating he has a weak manabase. (that's a 6% gross, or a ~11% relative increase in chance of success.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I believe it happened on camera sometime last year. Either way, both of you still lose the game in question if you don't hold it up T2. My line has a reasonable chance of stalling until he can Threat + have protection ready. If your ponder is really good, or your draw is a brainstorm, it's quite possible to instead Ponder-> hold up Force + Delver. If you goyf, you just lose T2.

That said, it's also clear (to Zombie, who I agree with) that I'm talking about TES where as if you're talking about ANT; it may be safe.

On #1, I'll clarify that I realize that usually T1 waste is bad, but in this case we've crossed off every card unless you want to wing a Ponder for interaction which is, fair enough, 44.4%. If, however, you instant lose; you can increase that to 52.4% by just wasting T1 and buying that extra draw; among all the other bonuses I mentioned since he's indicating he has a weak manabase. (that's a 6% gross, or a ~11% relative increase in chance of success.)

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I was assuming ant over tes since that's the more played version. Any line is subject to change based on what the opponent does. If ant leads sea -> duress -> stifle then hands down you Ponder turn 2 and hope to hit some counter magic.

Even if you don't the chances of ant going off turn 2 are unlikely unless they have something like 2x dark ritual, led/cabal ritual, infernal, some disruption or probe to see if the coast is clear. TES is a whole other beast that has less disruption so you can hold up counter magic and deploy the threat later. Ant on the other hand is very resilient and will kill you eventually but probably not until turn 3 or 4.

As for the first scenario your reasoning is sound. It is very contextual based on what they're on. Turn one tundra ponder doesn't exactly scream miracles. It could be deathblade or uwr stoneblade as well. In any case if they shuffle off their ponder and just show that they're weak on mana then waste is good and probably worth the gamble. If they keep the ponder I would drop delver turn 1.