[Deck] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

12 Mountain
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Piledriver
3 Warchief
2 Chieftain
1 Chainwhirler
4 Gempalm
2 Trashmaster
1 Tarfire
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Stingscourger

Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrokinesis

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I was running a very similar mono-colored list this WE, placing 3rd with 3-1. Only differences to your list were

- 1 Mountain
+ 1 Piledriver (to enable theoretical 3-turn-kills)
- 1 Trashmaster
- 2 Stingscourger
+ 1 Skirk Prospector
+ 1 Krenko
+ 1 SGC

Can't say anything about the two fatties bc I never played them and barely even drew one of them. Skirk Prospector was brilliant against DnT and Esperblade as well as Fanatic (for obvious reasons), Trashmaster is a good man but I'm also really looking forward to Cratermaker as an option to at least get rid of artifacts without green mana or cmc4.

As for including Cratermaker in my list once GRN is released...could see myself cutting the last Tarfire + Krenko for two of them.

Special shoutout to the single Blood Moon I ran in the SB for coming in against a board of 5 duals against Esperblade :really:.

Curious if the people who have cut SGC miss him at all? I will most likely be cutting him for Cratermaker along with maybe a tarfire but I'll miss the occasional lackey connect into SGC.

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

Curious if the people who have cut SGC miss him at all? I will most likely be cutting him for Cratermaker along with maybe a tarfire but I'll miss the occasional lackey connect into SGC.

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I don’t miss him at all. I like capping Vial at 4 and being able to play my entire deck off 4 lands. I run 8 pieces of removal MD and don’t need SGC for the reach. The deck provides plenty of bodies otherwise so SGC tokens are not missed. SGC is a card that increases the variance of the deck. If it’s stuck in hand it’s a dead draw. If you can cheat it in you’re often making suboptimal plays to do so (like ticking Vial to 5 or over valuing Lackeys).


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so, inspired by your latest list ill run this one

Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Mountain


Core
4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Vial

+
1 Tarfire
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Chainwhirler
1 Krenko
2 Cratermaker
2 Chieftain
2 Piledriver
3 Warchief
3 MWM
4 Incinerator

SB
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Stingscourger
2 Piledriver
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Confusion in the Ranks
3 Blood Moon
4 Surgical Extraction

//61 cards as I like to run my goblins ;D



Do you think we still need Tarfire or is one Fanatic or maybe even a 2nd one better?
Is Pyrokinesis still the way to go or does Chainwhirler its job better now?
In what MU is Krenko MVP?

I Gempalmed a turn 3 Prime Time last Sunday.

I then attacked for 13, putting my opponent to 6, and using double lackey triggers put in Matron and Prospector, and (while tapped out) finished off the last 6 points.

Try doing that without Siege-Gang Commander.

Small recap on my last tournament, where I played ANT, R/B Reanimator and U/G Post;
I went 3-0. Didn't resolve Thalia once. :cool::cool:

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

Curious if the people who have cut SGC miss him at all? I will most likely be cutting him for Cratermaker along with maybe a tarfire but I'll miss the occasional lackey connect into SGC.

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The biggest problem with SGC imho is that he's not cmc4 like most of the "bigger" goblins. For any other case, he's brilliant. Increasing the goblin count, possible Sharpshooter enabler and an excellent board stall breaker. I like to keep him as a random 1of usually.

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Do you think we still need Tarfire or is one Fanatic or maybe even a 2nd one better?

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With Cratermaker included, I'd rather cut Tarfire than Fanatic. Fanatic does a good job in making attacking less convenient for the opponent bc you can always chump and add 1 dmg to any other blocker. Sac outlets are also brilliant in general against stuff like Batterskull, Jitte etc...you get the idea.

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Is Pyrokinesis still the way to go or does Chainwhirler its job better now?

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I never really liked the massive CDA that Pyro comes with. It's stricly only better than Chainwhirler if you a) need a lot of damage very early on (like against Elves) or b) have to burn 2/2s all the time.

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In what MU is Krenko MVP?

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Eldrazi. But now that Ass Trophy is also coming, I'm really thinking about cutting Krenko completely. He's just super underwhelming when not hasted, bc opponents will go into panic mode and throw everything they can get towards him. It's now the same problem that I always had with Wort. She'd be able to survive until my next upkeep max. 30% of the time.

There also other nasty interaction with Siege-Gang. I just discovered one of them against Reanimator during the Swiss nationals.
SGC in play, 2 mana open. Opp casts Dark ritual + Entomb + Exhume on Griselbrand. Exhume on the stack, killed SGC with his own ability. Exhume resolves, and you get another brand new army which was later strictly lethal even through G-dude.

Many times I find that Lightning Crafter is better than Siege Gang, because they both have quite a similar effect but crafter is cheaper and the ability isn't as mana hungry.
If you can't put a Matron or a Ringleader under it then it might be worse than SGC, because in that situation it's more painful to have Crafter killed by spotremoval, but normally it isn't too hard to setup something good to champion.
In my opinion Kiki Jiki is the best 5.
Compared to SGC it goes against my overall strategy of playing standalone powerful cards that don't need a supporting cast. (I often say that Warchief sucks because it's hasty Grey Ogre, well the floor on KJ is hasty Grey Ogre that costs 5 and gets Karakas bounced). However if unanswered, Kiki Jiki activations provide so much CA and tempo that it's valuable as a kind of "I managed to get my vial up to 5 and the game isn't over yet? Well it is now."
If you play Chirurgeon in your list instead of Prospector that's also a point in favour of Kiki Jiki over SGC. (Also Kiki is better with Rabblemaster than SGC is).
I think I would prefer no 5s to playing SGC but this is a pretty close call because I don't think SGC is that bad.

Krenko is almost strictly better than Wort (unless you need an answer for a very specific situation like returning a Cratermaker to kill an Ensnaring Bridge or something) and even then I don't think it's very good

its kinda nice to see we get some interesting choices now. the last time i played goblins (and legacy -- during misstep era..) everything was more or less settled.

I actually never had any problems with SCG, usually you can either hardcast it or the vial isnt that useful anymore anyway. I won many tight games with it and remember it being crucial beating moat. Its true that Lightning Caster does similiar, but you cant cast it in topdeck mode and it doesnt bring the board impact and piledriver synergies.
I think I go for SCG over Krenko. I never was on fire for Kiki, sure sometimes it does broken things, but as often its a horrible topdeck and copies just a lackey or worse.

Im aware in what situation Kinesis is better than Whirler, but Ive no idea how the meta is shaped atm, so idk if there are that many x/2x that needs to be handled. I guess against DNT, the Whirler is much better. Elves get also hit pretty hard by it and often even the Kinesis couldnt stop them anyway, so I love the idea to finally have a ringleader compatible sideboard.

For those reanimator shenigans, Jitte dodges or potential Sharpshooter stuff Prospector was always MVP and with Warchief+MWM its a pretty good ramp (into SCG ;D)

Whats cool about Tarfire is, that it can hit face or surprise kill Planeswalkers, so maybe I keep a 1-of? On the other hand a Fanatic can pump Piledriver and potentially deals more dmg.


what happened to chrome mox/winstigator strategies?

My take on the deck right now :

Lands (23)

- 4 wasteland
- 4 rishadan port
- 4 cavern of souls
- 11 mountain

Spells (6)

- 4 aether vial
- 2 tarfire

Creatures (31)

- 4 lackey
- 4 piledriver
- 3 mogg war marshal
- 2 cratermaker
- 3 gempalm
- 4 matron
- 4 warchief
- 4 ringleader
- 1 trashmaster
- 2 siege gang

Basically, my main opinion is that we should stop maindecking bad creatures that are probably a relic of the past just because we can tutor for them. Every time i see a skirk prospector, a goblin sharpshooter maindeck i cry inside wondering why a legacy deck would play such cards maindeck. Now that we have quite good new cards (cratermaker and trashmaster), i think the deck should be streamlined a little bit sacrificing flexibility.

My list has a variety of removal in 2 tarfire, 3 gempalms and 2 cratermaker. I think some number of tarfires are still necessary and will always be necessary until delver of secrets, mother of runes, stoneforge and others exist. You want the option of removing these cards for only one mana. I removed stingscourger from my deck because A) it's a bad card B) cratermaker does some of the things stingscourger do. A scourger should probably be in sideboard though, together with a sharpshooter or chainwhirler.

Two siege gang can seem weird and i see there is a lot of discussion about this card. Yes, 5 mana is awkward, but i think he's miles better than any other top end options especially if assassin's trophy takes the slots of abrupt decay in legacy. Also, the tie breaker for me is that siege gang is one of the only cards that give us a chance of racing combo in game one wth the old turn one lackey, turn two cheat siege gang in and play piledriver, turn 3 win. Same reason why i play 4 piledriver: they are basically our only tool against combo decks game one.

Goblin chieftain is unnecessary at the moment, given that trashmaster buffs the team AND is unbeatable for decks playing artifacts.

Regarding the manabase, i just prefer playing mono red. Green is out of the equation with tin street hooligan being obsolete, and i don't think having thalia and containment priest in sideboard makes a lot of difference instead of other options like chalice, thorn of amethyst, leyline, etc. My only real question is if i should cut one or two ports to play a couple karakas, but i really think i prefer trying to dodge nearly unwinnable matchups and streamline my deck to win the fights i can win.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

so, inspired by your latest list ill run this one

Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Mountain


Core
4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Vial

+
1 Tarfire
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Chainwhirler
1 Krenko
2 Cratermaker
2 Chieftain
2 Piledriver
3 Warchief
3 MWM
4 Incinerator

SB
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Stingscourger
2 Piledriver
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Confusion in the Ranks
3 Blood Moon
4 Surgical Extraction

//61 cards as I like to run my goblins ;D



Do you think we still need Tarfire or is one Fanatic or maybe even a 2nd one better?
Is Pyrokinesis still the way to go or does Chainwhirler its job better now?
In what MU is Krenko MVP?

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Good luck!

I still like Tarfire for going to the dome, killing planeswalkers, and instant speed early game removal.

Pyro and Whirler are very different and I do not see them as overlapping cards. Pyro is to answer Must-Kill early game creatures. Whirler is to gain late-game board position.

Krenko is best in any grindy MU, especially ones without bolt or swords (which these days are few and far between).


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definitely another interesting take on the deck and i totally can follow the arguments for 4 pile + scg. that said, thats the standard old school build. prospector on the other hand is defintely not a relic. when you run it with mwm it gives you access to rituals and help you with heavy r cost. also its another 1 drop and i really like to have more than 8 in case of bad starts. stingscourger also is an out to a bunch of g1 madness like merit lage token

Brief introduction: I've been playing Legacy on the regular for just over a year, the boys were my first and one true love, though after realizing when I started out that they weren't very well positioned (despite how much I loved them) I played Turbo Depths as my main tournament deck for a long time after that (pre-DRS ban). I have dabbled in Maverick, Miracles (and other greedy blue piles) but with the recent resurgence in the fortune of a group of well-behaved boys (and an upcoming change in circumstance to allow the more regular casting of cardboard) I figured I would return to my roots. For context, I would rate myself as an enthusiastic average ability player that has a good bit of experience with the deck.

I have been a lurker on the source for about as long as I've been playing Legacy; however as it transpires, I actually never made an account, which came as a surprise when I spent about 20 minutes trying to log in before posting this.

Anyway, I don't have a whole lot to contribute as I haven't played any proper leagues in a few weeks (recently just practice rooms when I have time, and other random testing matches) but I thought I would make an introduction and a post with my current list along with my philosophy behind the choices as a new voice. You have to start somewhere.

The beauty of goblins is the diversity in lists and approaches, this how I approached my list; which is not necessarily better than anyone else's.

For a tl;dr see the end.

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As with I would say the majority, I have been running a classic non-winstigator list, which is my preferred flavour. Pre-DRS ban I favoured a couple of chrome mox to help keep up with the format at the time and to turbo out sideboard hate pieces. I haven't felt them necessary now, since the format has slowed down a touch, and with the vast quantity of grindy decks around, the card-disadvantage is hard to justify.

Without re-stating the obvious too much, the printing of Trashmaster has been absolutely fantastic for the deck, but in more than just the simple main deck hate and lord package. I think it helps solve some curve issues and tightens up the default selection. Previously we had too many 3-drops to choose from, and balancing Chieftain with Warchief was not clear cut: Warchief is by far the more powerful, but a lord effect is required in some quantity nonetheless. In the 4-drop slot we had a 1-of Tuktuk Scrapper, possibly the most horrendous main-deck card in the list; then flex slots for any other 4+ drops outside of the 4 ringleaders. This usually resulted in a split of either Kiki-Jiki, Krenko or possibly Lightning Crafter. Trashmaster now neatly occupies the 4-drop flex slots and acts as the lord effect, which means in the 3-drop slot we can go to 4 Warchief without sacrificing on pump effects, and our 4+ slot is now solved for us.

This means we don't need to try and run less optimal but flashier cards like Krenko and Kiki-Jiki. These can both be good when they work, but in a world of Kolaghan's Commands, Terminii and Toxic Deluges, I think our pieces need to be more individually powerful. There are situations where only those unique effects can win the game, but that is by far the minority.

Running the full 4 Warchief is also nice in that it helps us keep our mana a bit more consistent, there are a lot of Dazes and Wastelands, and we want to be able to cast our beefy bois consistently. If we are playing 2 Trashmaster and 4 Warchief, this also means we want more copies of War Marshal, since these all work very well together. There is always a discussion about how many Piledrivers to run, I like 2 because he plays so well with the selection above. If you wanted to play a flashy boi, I would cut a Piledriver.

I discussed 4+ flex slots and excluded SGC. I personally wouldn't class him in the flex-slot category as I never cut him: he's your biggest clock vs combo and he's fantastic in grindy matchups. I think he's one 5-drop you can afford to run.

For the removal suite I am undecided yet on whether to include a tarfire post-DRS banning. It's another effect that you never really want to draw most of the time. Post-board if you need spot removal, you can bring in pyros. This is something I am keeping in mind though.

For lands I am at 23, 24 might be safer, but with 4 warchief, a lot of 2-drops and only 1 5-drop, I think this should be fine.

The Chainwhirlers have been excellent as a 2-of. RRR is very hard to hit on T3, but you usually cheat her in and/or she is rarely played on curve. She is fantastic against so many decks, and it is really nice to have access to 4 3/3 bodies in the list. This is also one of the reasons I don't feel you need the flashy effects, you just have a bigger board presence on average than you used to, so you should be able to close the door fine without them.

Regarding the final choices, Prospector is the perennial underappreciated staple, if you are playing War Marshals you should be playing Prospector. This then leads nicely into playing Sharpshooter, which is fantastic against similar decks to Chainwhirler, but on a different axis. Stingscourger is your way to cheese out reanimator, SnS and Depths G1. Never leave home without your Stingscourger!

Overall, this honestly feels like the most well-rounded list I have run. So many previous deck-selection dilemmas have been solved by new printings.

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Trashmaster
2 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Mountain
6 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboards for goblins are notoriously local-meta dependent and often based on the phase of the moon as well as choice of sock-colour. Make of it what you will, I have about 8-9 cards to bring in for each combo matchup which is where I feel I want to be. Confusion is maybe too cute, but SnS usually runs Omni and there aren't really many other overlapping effects to deal with it (Thorn is ok, but less final). This could well change. I like the idea of the Thalia package but my preference is to keep the mana as solid as possible.

Before the printing of Cratermaker, this slot had been occupied by Tuktuk Scrapper (as an extra effect and to get around Revoker/Needle on Trashmaster). I am not sure if I would have a Cratermaker in the main yet, I will start with one in the side. It has a broader reach than Trashmaster, but this is the only effect it really replaces (it is not a replacement for Stingscourger), and it isn't a lord. If I were to have one main in addition, it would probably be over the 2nd Chainwhirler to cut down on RRR, but I think three shatter effects are plenty and the splash effects are likely too niche to need more of.

Edit: I completely blanked the creature shock when writing this, it quite possible should be in the main: in my list over the 2nd Chainwhirler to cut down RRR and instead of a Tarfire.

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Confusion in the Ranks

Briefly on the Grixis Control matchup which some have been discussing. I have found it to be fine. Maybe I haven't played vs enough of it or vs skilled enough pilots. At the moment I swap a Piledriver and a Sharpshooter for 2 Relics on the play, and 4 lackeys for the Moons and Relics on the draw.

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tl;dr I think the classic list is very well positioned right now, I would opt for a more rounded-out build, eschewing flashy effects (no Krenko, Kiki-Jiki) with SGC as the only 5-drop and the full 4 Warchief.

Apart from any discussion about whether we should cut the curve at 4 mana or in which lineup which "fat" Goblin is the best, SGC has one clear advantage over all other "lategame" goblins - apart from Ringleader and Trashmaster.

Which is: He has the greatest impact "by himself". Although I also really dig the possibilities of guys like Kiki, Krenko and Lightning Crafter, they're too much of what I would call "classic win-more". Kiki more so than Crafter of course. Krenko is the most viable of those three, but now that Decay decks start to play a Decay that can hit Krenko as well...I'm not so sure about him anymore.

Usually - from the way I perceived it in the last 6 years playing Goblins - if we have enough men on the board (that also stay on the board) that we could copy/champion or do any other shenanigans with, those are the games we could win anyway. Only exception would be DnT because of equipped Wisp/Avenger, but since Cratermaker is coming soon, that shouldn't be the issue.

SGC opens up the possibilities for different starting hands that enable T3 kills. He's a great lategame topdeck, the most fearsome Lackey drop there is and also well-fitting if your toolbox revolves around sac-outlets (like Sharpshooter in SB, Prospector and Fanatic main). He's a solution to a problem we are having trouble to fix with other goblins which is winning against combo or decks that stall the ground - green stuff, lands, Bridge decks etc.

So what I'm most likely going to do is run 1 SGC main and either give the second "big man" slot to Krenko, a second Trashmaster or even Earwig Squad if I feel like foolin' around :tongue:.

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Originally Posted by Gewaltjuergen

Apart from any discussion about whether we should cut the curve at 4 mana or in which lineup which "fat" Goblin is the best, SGC has one clear advantage over all other "lategame" goblins - apart from Ringleader and Trashmaster.

Which is: He has the greatest impact "by himself". Although I also really dig the possibilities of guys like Kiki, Krenko and Lightning Crafter, they're too much of what I would call "classic win-more". Kiki more so than Crafter of course. Krenko is the most viable of those three, but now that Decay decks start to play a Decay that can hit Krenko as well...I'm not so sure about him anymore.

Usually - from the way I perceived it in the last 6 years playing Goblins - if we have enough men on the board (that also stay on the board) that we could copy/champion or do any other shenanigans with, those are the games we could win anyway. Only exception would be DnT because of equipped Wisp/Avenger, but since Cratermaker is coming soon, that shouldn't be the issue.

SGC opens up the possibilities for different starting hands that enable T3 kills. He's a great lategame topdeck, the most fearsome Lackey drop there is and also well-fitting if your toolbox revolves around sac-outlets (like Sharpshooter in SB, Prospector and Fanatic main). He's a solution to a problem we are having trouble to fix with other goblins which is winning against combo or decks that stall the ground - green stuff, lands, Bridge decks etc.

So what I'm most likely going to do is run 1 SGC main and either give the second "big man" slot to Krenko, a second Trashmaster or even Earwig Squad if I feel like foolin' around :tongue:.

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I disagree that Kiki is more so a "win-more" than Crafter and also that Krenko is more viable. Personally, I don't play with any of them and do stick to SCG, but if I chose one it would be Kiki. All three die to bolt, but without a warchief in play, Kiki is the only one of Kiki, Crafter, or Krenko that can affect the board the turn it is played. If you vial in a Krenko or Crafter (without a warchief) they just die to bolt or removal and leave nothing. Whereas, if you vial in a Kiki-Jiki on your opponent's end step, with at least one other goblin on the battlefield and they follow up with removal, then you at least have an opportunity to copy the other goblin which of course has a lot of variance on how powerful it is depending on what the goblin was, but you at least have something for a turn. Of course, if you have a warchief out, then yes, Krenko can have a higher ceiling. Just my thought on the matter. (Kiki on opponent's end step copying piledriver and copying piledriver again on your turn with a warchief in play seems pretty sweet too.)

I playtested quite a bit in the last days on xmage and i had to alter my list. It didnt perform for me as expected, so i tried different things. I finally fell in love with Earwig Squads. For whatever reasons I never tried them with Prospectors back then, which allows for T2 Squads. But the meta was more creature centric, now I played tons of unfair decks. Might be Xmage meta though. Fanatics are also quite good right now and help with Prowl. I also think that 2 SCGs or even 3 are the way to go. Its really underwhelming to connect with lackey and only get a MWM into play.

https://i.imgur.com/xM8PBz7.jpg

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Fanatics are also quite good right now and help with Prowl.

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How do you mean "helps with prowl"? Because it comes down turn 1? Because it kills X/1's?

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

How do you mean "helps with prowl"? Because it comes down turn 1? Because it kills X/1's?

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Yeah, because its an early drop that easily connects. For now Squads are under the radar, so no one will care about the point of damage. And ofc Fanatics will remove some blocker as well. They kill moms, delver, thalias and so on. I highly recommend replacing Tarfire and cut some Incinerators for a mix of Fanatics and Cratermaker. Thanks to Cratermaker and Trashmaster the weakness to Equipments/SFM is completely obsolete now.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Yeah, because its an early drop that easily connects. For now Squads are under the radar, so no one will care about the point of damage. And ofc Fanatics will remove some blocker as well. They kill moms, delver, thalias and so on. I highly recommend replacing Tarfire and cut some Incinerators for a mix of Fanatics and Cratermaker. Thanks to Cratermaker and Trashmaster the weakness to Equipments/SFM is completely obsolete now.

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I'd even go so far and State that any deck that leans on equipments as a wincondition doesn’t want to be paired against Goblins (provided we play Trashmaster and Carterman which I think we should).

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I'd even go so far and State that any deck that leans on equipments as a wincondition doesn’t want to be paired against Goblins (provided we play Trashmaster and Carterman which I think we should).

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GoboLord, back at it and swinging!


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