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I don't think you ever want to cut any of the Mishra's Factories... they're the main recurring win condition with a Crucible in play.
I could see cutting the Magus for more Knights, and then adding a singleton Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale as a tutor target to emulate the Magus' effect.
I like a lot the green splash idea I will test it soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isei
What about Winter Orbs in side instead Suppresion Field?
@Isei
Congrats on the finish, its been quite sometime since stax finished well in a big tournament. Comparing knights to angels, Although angels helps with life loss due to tombs and early threats, it often comes down as a 2/2 and makes it quite vulnerable.It also has a very high CC post geddon. Its actually nice to see that you have suggested knight to come out AFTER an armageddon (makes it really easy to cast rather than angel whom we have to morph and unmorph before we send the lands bye bye). Having knights after an armageddon makes us focus on the lock itself early on.
The green splash has been really important for stax, as it provides you with very good sideboard options. K. grip and choke which is one of the best that it provides.
Its actually surprising to see that you had problems vs dredge, as I never had problems with dredge at all. Most of the time I beat them without even boarding anything. I am actually just guessing that your opponent may just have had a crazy opening hand 1st and 2nd game hence the win over you.
I honestly never felt the need to board in grave hate against ichorid. The only reason I might actually board in grave hate is if the metagame calls for it. If the metagame consists of aggro loam variants as well as ichorid which can be a problem for stax as well deck.
As for grave hate there are tons of cards to consider, Tormods crypt and Loaming shaman are the first to enter my mind against decks that abuse graveyard. Crypts are good, but can be named via P. needle. Loaming shaman is quite slower bit is a threat in addition to the grave hate.
@winter orb
It was quite good in testing, its very good against landstill because of its taxing effects, If your deck runs into a lot of landstill variants, this may be a good sideboard option. Sometimes however it also hits you... Just to note, winter orbs have also good synergy with ghostly prison and Knight of reliquary. Winter orbs also give burn as well as enchantress a head ache...
@erbs + MTG-Fan:
I might bump the knight to 3, but probably won't ever bump it to 4. Magus still has a lot of benefits over Knight. First, if you don't have a plains (which actually happens often enough to matter), then you can't search at all. Second, it comes down "later," since you have to wait for summoning sickness to wear off. Lastly, the Tabernacle can just be hit by a wasteland. So, while good, it just doesn't replace magus.
As for life from the loam, it just seems really redundant with Crucible. You don't have that much space in the deck, and the Factories are necessary, in my opinion.
@Al-ucard:
I don't know. It's probably worth testing... I've even considered a blue stax build that runs Icy and the Orb. Another sideboard slot I'd like other people to test is Aven Mindcensor, though. It's interesting against Fetchlands and Tutors, particularly because no one really expects to see an instant speed response from this deck, not to mention being a win condition with evasion.
@f|i[p]:
Thanks again for the congrat's. Thanks for understanding the real reason I love Knight so much. Plus, you know, they're knights. The creature type.
The dredge matchup sorta surprised me too. I probably did misplay game 2. Game 1, there was obviously nothing I can do. It's just like the God Draw for this deck: only a free counterspell (or some crazy alternate mana source) can stop it. That being said, I still think crypts would be better in side than the Winter Orb, especially since I think I'm going to be seeing more dredge decks at the Mean Deck Open.
As far as crypts over shaman, I think we're okay with them putting in needles. Chalice at 1 comes down really often, so it'll often get countered, and you can pull them out game 3 (if they see one) to give them a nice dead card in hand, or side in Grips if you'd prefer.
Oh, just one one more thing to point out about Knight (and Flagstones) that surprised me: City of Traitors only gets sacrificed when a land card is "played," not "put into play." So, searching with Knight or Flagstones won't kill your City. Just make sure your local judge is ruling the same way before you do it.
Hi, I'm new to posting here but I've been reading this thread for quite a while and just went 4-0 last night in a 16 person event with Stax. Here's what I played:
Land:
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Kor Haven
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Savannah
6 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
Creatures/Planeswalkers:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Artifacts/Enchantments:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Oblivion Ring
Sorcery:
3 Armageddon
Sideboard:
An assortment of random janky stuff that I didn't really use. This definitely needs work.
I don't have real detailed notes and played against some unusual decks but here are the matchups real quick:
Round 1: Elves
Ghostly Prison + Tabernacle + Armageddon did it's job. Sided in Magus of the Moat (I know it's bad) because elves can't fly.
1-0
Round 2: Slivers?
Didn't see much of this guys deck. Necrotic, Gemhide, and Sinew Slivers with Aether Vials. He didn't even counter anything. Chalice and Smokestack locked both games up with the Knight swinging to win.
2-0
Round 3: UGw Control
He plays a counter heavy deck with Goyf, Coatl, and Knight of the Reliquary with maindecked Winter Orb and Hierarchs. He shut me out quickly in game one, but couldn't find any hate in games two or three and Chalices for 1 and 2 established quick control. Last time I played against him with this deck he was running the Knights and we talked about putting it in my Stax list, so I ordered them and seeing the results here really encouraged me to use them. My favorite play from this match was blocking a large Coatl with the Knight, then saccing a plains to fetch up a second Flagstones, dumping three more land into the graveyard.
3-0
Round 4: Mono-W Kithkin? Tokens?
I'm not really sure what was going on here. Game 1 I wasted two Windbrisk Heights then won. Game 2 he never made a third land drop. The only cards I saw were the Heights, a Spectral Procession, a Knight of Meadowgrain, and an Enlightened Tutor for an Oblivion Ring.
4-0
I feel like I've won a lot of games so far with the Knight where the Magus wouldn't have cut it. As long as there's no graveyard hate the Knight is incredibly efficient, and it's nice to be able to swing with something that's got more than 2 power, it gives the opponent a lot less time to find an answer when I've only got a soft lock on the board. Fetching up the Tabernacle as needed is nice as well.
Hi guys, i am new to this forum and like the way geddon stax plays, i have been considering the list with 2 knight of reliquary built on the last few pages, i just had one question....
When you put a soot counter on smokestack, does it then trigger to sac something, or since its your upkeep, do you control how they stack? The answer to this question would be very helpful, like what you guys are doing and hope to help evolve stax.
Thanks all
When you put a soot counter on a Stack, you don't have to sacrifice anything. You will only have to sac something on your next upkeep. The trigger to force sacrifice only happens at the beginning of your upkeep, so the soot counter must already be on a Stack at the beginning of a player's upkeep to force a sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja_attack
So say you play a Smokestack on your 3rd turn. On your 4th turn's upkeep, you have the option to put a soot counter on it. If you do, you can continue with your 4th turn without sacrificing anything. Then, during your opponent's next upkeep, he is forced to sacrifice a permanent. Then, on your 5th turn, you must sacrifice a permanent during your upkeep, and you also have the option of adding another soot counter or not, but you will only have to sacrifice one permanent that turn, regardless of whether or not you increase the number of soot counters.
Actually, i suppose it's incorrect. You should put triggers onto stack in the right order.
For the 2nd trigger number of soot ounters is checked on resolution of this trigger, so you can have to sacrifice a permanent for a counter you just have put on Smokestack if you want or if you misplayed.Quote:
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a soot counter on Smokestack.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player sacrifices a permanent for each soot counter on Smokestack.
If you put the 1st trigger onto stack and then the 2nd one, it works so: 2nd one resolves causing you to sac a permanent for each counter Smokestack has on it and then the 1st one resolves so you can choose to put one more counter if you want. Usually, this is the right order, becauses using it you sacrifice less permanents.
But you can use any order, because you control both abilities and they are triggered at the same time, so you can choose this way: put 2nd trigger onto stack and then the 1st one. So the 1st one will resolve first and you will get a choise whether to put a soot counter onto Smokestack. If you do, you will have to sacrifice permanents for all soot counters including the latest one on resolution of Smokestack's 2nd trigger. So if your plan is to sac as few permanents as possible, use another order if your opponent asks you about it: 1st trigger goes to stack, then the 2nd one.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
Nah, that's correct. If triggered abilities go on the stack at the same time (it doesn't actually matter when they trigger), their controller can choose the order in which they go on the stack freely. First the active player does this for all of his triggered abilities, than the nonactive player. (That means that the triggered abilities of the non-active player will always resolve first - and that he can adjust his order in the knowledge of the active player's doings.)
The usual upkeep trigger order for me is:
1: Magus upkeep
2: counter ability
3: sacrifice ability
That way, I first sacrifice stuff (floating mana from sacrificed lands for Magus or Factories - no downside to this since M10). Then I put a counter on Stack or not. And last, I pay for my creatures.
It doesn't really matter if you reverse 1 and 2 as they have no bearing on each other, but I have found it helpful to standardize and memorize this order nonetheless; of course, I'll vary it if needed.
But it's important to always put the sacrifice trigger on the stack last (= to resolve it first). That way, you sacrifice fewer permanents. And you can sacrifice creatures without paying for them.
If you want to do neither (say, you want to keep all your creatures and not add a counter to Stack), the order doesn't matter in the least - just remember to float mana from sacrificed lands, as it never hurts (barring Tomb).
@FancyMike
Congrats on your finish !!
@Isei
I might try your build but i was wondering have you ever tried using tanglewires and bottled cloister in place of orings in your g/w build ? But i don't know how you could fit them since in my deck the oring and the knight slots are the tanglewire and bottledcloister.
Currently im running mono w and removed the orings and replaced it with 4 tanglewires and 2 bottled cloister its been doing good in our playtest sessions.
I know an early gofy or other early threats will give me problems without the orings but the tempo boost i gain from tanglewires and bottled cloister is sometimes enough to give me the time i need to deal against my opponents threat.
I haven't tested them throughly since im still fond of using the merfolk :laugh: . But there's a another upcoming tourny in our place i might go stax but im hesitant since alot of pridemage and trygon predators are running wild in the meta.
I've also wanted to run winter orbs but if i push in more artifact mana but there are no more slots for it. I was thinking maybe icy manipulator might help but since it could also act as a creature control but kinda slow and costs alot as compared to orings.
@f|i[p]
hey, you join on the 29th ?
@FancyMike:
Congrats on your finish! I personally don't like only running 3 armageddon in the board. I would almost call your list Reliquary Stompy, as it doesn't seem to control the game as efficiently, but throws down beats very well.
@People discussing triggers:
APNAP order! Active players stacks any triggers he or she controls first, then non-active player stacks his or hers. That means Smokestack trigger will always resolve before Magus's on your opponent's turn. Additionally, you CAN choose to put a counter on Smokestack before you sacrifice. I have done this to sacrifice a Flagstones to search for my Savannah, just so I could cast Knight of the Reliquary a turn earlier.
@_erbs_:
The main reason I don't like Bottled Cloisters is a reason you mentioned: Pridemages and Predators. If they kill the Cloister on their turn, you DO NOT get your hand back. However, I've never found playing against Pridemages to be a problem, it just takes careful judgement and agressive mulligans.
About Tangle Wires: I only really like them when you have a chance to recur them with Welder or Transmuter. Other than with those, they don't seem to do enough.
About Winter Orb: Orb is still too iffy for me. First of all, I really love to chalice at two. It stops so many things you're scared of, like Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. Second, though not too relevant, it costs more through Trinisphere. Lastly, it is WAY too symmetrical for my tastes. It hurts you almost as much as it hurts them, especially since their spells cost less. I'd prefer to just keep my Chokes in board, since they'd come in against almost all the same decks.
Also, my opponent from Round 7 messaged me, and gave me enough of a rundown of our match for me to remember it again. It's updated (or will be soon) in the post with the report.
But in that situation, wouldn't the Savannah come into play tapped that turn? How would it ever be advantageous to sacrifice to a Smokestack the turn you first put a counter on it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Isei
Two other points:
1.) I hate to say it, but Knight might actually be worth running as a 4-of in place of Magus. I've been playtesting with a 2/2 split recently, and Knight just becomes ridiculous in many more ways than Magus. It often grows to epic proportions - I've had 10/10, 12/12 Knight in many games. It just ends the game very fast where Magus would only put them on a 10 turn clock. And EOT search for Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is a pretty good substitute for the Magus' ability. The only downside is that you can't stack Tabernacle effects as you could with multiple Magus.
2.) What is the proper number of Geddons to run? I am asking because it is possible to run up to 8 Armageddons (additional copies in the form of Ravages of War), and I feel that casting this spell is very crucial to winning with this deck. So lately I've been playing 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of war, giving me 5 copies to improve consistency. It might even be worthwhile running a 3/2 split to prevent Meddling Mage from interfering with your deck. What do you guys think? Is it worth running 1-2 Ravages in addition to Armageddon?
@MTG-Fan
--This deck used to run a total of 6 geddon effects, having 2 additional ravages of war, it ends up as preference as to how many you should run in your version... I think 5 is a good number. 4 is ok..
--Magus --Magus and knight serves different purposes. Magus more or less serves as a defensive mechanism where as knights dont, they cant block a goyf early on and live. Knights cant tax creature based decks like goblins,merfolk,elves, ichorids and others. Knights cant also clear the board of creatures after an armageddon.. I think your confusing the purpose of magus in this deck.. Even if you say tabernacle can be fetched by knight. you should also know that knight can't fetch it right away, it will give the goblins or any swarm deck the turn they need to completely kill you..Magus has saved me countless times and I haven't really found a good replacement for his ability. In a metagame where singleton big creatures thrive, you can probably replace him with something else... but generally I'd keep him as a 3 of.
Don't be swayed by the cool factor of knights, Yes they are good, you must however remember,that they both have their purpose in the deck. They are totally different..
Congratulations to Isei and Fancymike!
Is it now a concensus that Knight > Elspeth (or similarly, GW > mono W)?
From some limited experience, I have usually hoped to see an Oblivion Ring to clear any threat came down before the lock. Many lists only run 2-3 MD, is 4 a more appropriate number?
I think that all depends on what you have in your deck. MD humilities can just dominate some metas and in those cases Elsepth is hands down better.
@MTG-Fan
The Savannah untapped on the next turn, allowing me to still cast the Knight one turn earlier.
Also, I believe f|i[p] has the right take on Knight and Magus-- too much of a good thing makes the deck weaker.
@tsabo_tavoc
I tested Elspeth for a while and really didn't like it because of the bad interactions between it and Ghostly Prison (which doesn't stop creatures from attacking her). Sure, she can beat them down when they're completely locked out of the game.. but so could a Llanowar Elves. Hence, I cut her in favor of sturdier win conditions.. hence, the Knight. However, if you find an environment that suits Elspeth more, then by all means, she is extremely strong.
I would run 4 main Oblivion rings, but I can't find anything in the main to cut. It was crowded even before adding the Knights. The next thing to get cut is either a Chalice (which I really don't want to do) or a mana source (and I feel I have the correct number already).
@The Wes
Main-deck Humilities is a different deck called Dutch Stax, generally. I wouldn't consider running it in my build, if only for the fact that Magus loses his abilities.
So, how is the Landstill matchup... for reference, i am using Isei's list with the change of no supperssion field and some graveyard hate.. maybe crypt... i really like the knight, i feel as if in the landstill matchup, if you can throw down chalice at 1, then geddon early, with knight on the table, then it should be enough pressure to win, but i'm having trouble understanding this matchup more in depth... Could some stax vets provide me with some guidelines and whatnot, as some landstill build run cunning wish into fracturing gust, which seems like a blowout... also, in a more controllish meta, could i run -1 ghostly prison +1 o ring?
Thanks
@ninja_attack:
I've pretty much just accepted that Landstill is a bad matchup. If you can resolve a Crucible, your life is a LOT better, and you have a very good chance at the matchup. Other than that, Smokestack is almost useless, since (at least in g1) you have no way to deal with their Crucible. Your only chance to make it work is recurring your own Flagstones.
After sideboard, you have Krosan Grips and Chokes. You'll want to try to Armageddon away the basics, just so you are able to Wasteland the rest of the lands. Also, with a Trinisphere in play, it's extremely difficult for them to EE for zero to get rid of your chalices (since they'll almost certainly have to use colored mana to play it... 8 colorless sources isn't usually enough to straight up cast it).
If the Standstill comes down, you can very easily fight them with your own man-lands. Personally, I often hold back Wastelands against them, hoping they'll drop the Standstill, and I can take out the Mishra's and swing in with my own. Again, you'll really really want to have your own Crucible out, and using a Grip on theirs in response to the Standstill is devastating in all too many cases.
This isn't as organized as I'd like, just a lot of general ideas on the matchup, but I hope it helps.
As a side note, is anyone else having problems beating Dredge w/LED? I can never seem to get the Trinisphere early enough, and my Prisons never quite cut it, due to chain of vapor. Even with the Crypts in sideboard, I still have problems. Any suggestions?
@Isei
In my old mono w geddon stax build i have 5 SB cards for an Ichorid deck (1 relic of progenitus, 2 tormod's crypt, 2 sphere of resistance).
Against any combo deck i felt its like your up against luck. If they could combo out before you lay down your defenses or your the 1st to lay down some sort of taxing effect to them.
I recalled in one of my previous tourny's using geddon stax i was up against ANT, 1st turn i dropped a trinisphere my opponents conceeds. On his turn he combo out on his 1st turn. And on our last game i was lucky to have landed a 1st turn sphere of resistance then everything followed for the win.
My old sb list
4 sphere of law
2 sphere of resistance
2 tormod's crpyt
1 relic of progenitus
3 oblivion ring
3 meta call
I tried running your list right now, it was my 1st time running a non mono w stax. I just changed several parts though (-1 flagstone +1 trinisphere, -1 nomad stadium +1 horizon canopy).
This is just my very early assessment. The Wg build playing style is like the old w stax thats very dependent on its 7 cards and needs to cast trini or chalice in the earn turns to atleast don't get behind your opponents threats.
I'm really missing the tangle wires and bottled cloister. Before even when i don't get to cast trinisphere/chalice earn turns or its countered/destoryed, when tanglewire hits the board i could somehow get the tempo i lost.
Oring at times is a miss or hit card when its get stifled or destroyed. But Kor Haven is a nice addition.
The horizon canopy is not bad but very very slow as compared to bottled cloister in terms of drawing cards. Im assuming that thats his primary role over his colored mana.
With regards to bottled cloister getting destroyed i guess its just okay for me. If you looked at your hand and board components they are almost similar your hand is like a body double of your permanents expect for spells which stax has a lower count as compared to permanents. Basically what im saying is if horizon's canopy primary role is a draw engine eventhough your land gets destored aslong as you could get the answer you need its a fair trade.
I think that is quite similar to what bottled cloister do with abit of plus and minus and is a faster draw engine as compared to horizon canopy.
But the main debated for me with them is that:
• Both of them can be easily eliminated.
Bottled Cloister
+ faster draw engine.
+ can function alone.
- lost cards if it gets destroyed.
- can be countered.
Horizon Canopy
+ can't be countered.
+ is recurrable via crusible.
+/- one turn faster since its combo card is crusible 3cc as compared to 4.
- needs crusible to able to function as a draw engine.
- ouch land.
As for the Knight when i was able to cast him he was more of a win more rather than a utility. The land search ability is okay but you wouldn't need it since more or less before he lands you already have your wasteland. The kor haven and horizon canopy are the only ones he could fetch when he gets on the board unless your going to up the count to 3 or 4 but what would remove ? Oring ?.
For me the thing i really liked about him is that i could muscle my way through my opponents creatures as compared to the old build in where i need to clear the board before i could attack with mishra or magus. As expected the knight almost felt like an exalted angel swinging and your opponent can't asnwer her flying ability. But the angel is more fragile as compared to the knight.
I will test your list more and maybe i could add or suggest something to improve it.
For now i the oring seems to be a miss or hit card mainboard. Maybe additional knight and powder kegs or utility lands. Maybe more threats...
@ninja_attack
Landstill is a bad match up. Stand stills and pernicious deeds can be quite annoying,.They have their own crucibles as well. THe other version of landstill which runs elspeth is even more annoying. The only way I see stax winning this is if we actually attack their mana base. Krosan grips and chokes will help a lot in this match up. Armageddon and chokes are what your actually looking for in this match up. There are different branches of landstill now a days which makes their win condition faster.
@Isei
As I said, I never really had much problems with ichorid since we really have a lot of cards that answers ichorid main deck...but maybe it was just luck for me as well.. But I constantly win against ichorid without even having worries about the match up, hence no grave hate on my side...
Although I ran 4 magus main deck and ofcourse 2 exalted angels long ago..
Just my assessment
Chalice for zero stops LED on its tracks, Chalice for 1 stops their broken plays like breakthrough.
Trinisphere makes them quite slow which will buy you a few turns to be able to drop more pieces.
Ghostly prison stops the horde which means they would have to rely dread return or flashback removal or perhaps chain of vapor as you said.
Magus of the tabernacle shuts down all the tokens. Additionally you can sacrifice magus to get rid of Bridge. You can also sac mishra to magus if you don't feel like sacrificing magus.
Wastelands do help in this match up
KotR can fetch your tabernacle -- if you have them. MAze of ith if you run them for singleton creatures via dread return.
Chain of vapor? that means they either have it on their opening hand or they are actually drawing cards instead of dredging which means you have bought some turns.
I actually run EE on my side instead of gravehate, It might actually hurt me at times but It helps me get around some decks and mass remove annoying cards . Played for zero can help against tokens. Its quite versatile. You can have kegs at this spot. OR even wrath of god which kills every creature even progenitus.
Runed halo might be worth a trying as well.
Just to actually pull you out of the green splash, I also considered having a black splash long long ago, just for sideboard cards. Extirpate was my card of choice. Yes It can be bothersome having chalice for 1. But I have always loved wasting and extirpating non basics on thresh and landstill. I remember there was a stax deck who had a black splash that made it to top 8 which had cranial extractions on the side. I am not saying black is better. I actually think green is the best splash color for us now. Just because of Krosan grips,knight and chokes. But a hint of black might help, Cranial would be able to completely remove Dread return or bridge. Which leaves them with one less win condition. This is not hard to do considering you have mox D. Im just throwing out ideas.. I am not saying it will work.