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Manamorphose is a better way to fill the yard for Grim Lavamancer. It also lets you play a 56 card list (and combos with Kiln Fiend if you opt to play that, though Kiln Fiend seems subpar).
Creature [12]
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Grim Lavamancer
Instant [15]
3 Manamorphose
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorcery [12]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
Enchantment [2]
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Land [19]
7 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
Mr Brainwasher is absolutly RIGHT....the goblin example actually was amusing :tongue:
I had a burn deck for like 7/8 years (lightning bolt, mogg fanatic, ball lightning, browbeat, etc), never changed it because i only played casual, and it was already capable of easily raping my friends.
Now i want to 'upgrade it' so i can take it to legacy events, my favorite format, and its cheaper since i already have a part of the cards. The list should pretty much like this:
Creatures - 12
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Spark Elemental
Instants - 12
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
Sorceries - 12
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
Enchantments - 4
4 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands - 20
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
10 Mountain
SD is a good question. I have no clue about the most played decktypes in my area, but Vexing Shusher and Pyrostatic Pillar seem very important and probably are going to be 4-of. I also like Searing Blaze, specially with fetches.
Is Volcanic Fallout that important? I already have 4 but never used them.....
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I never realised how important Sulfuric Vortex was, until i experimented it. Now i think why i took so long to actually get a playset, specially because i dont have lavamancer, so its my only source of constant damage.
BTW, Goblin Guide gives us better chances of a 3/4th turn kill, so any discussion around its utility is just ridiculous. Its as important as lightning bolt, or fireblast, 'core' cards in burn.
If i had to cut out Chain Lightning (due to lack of $) what should it put in? (i dont like magma jet, scry is nice but 2cc for 2 dmg sucks big time) Maybe Flame Rift could be a good option.
"SD is a good question. I have no clue about the most played decktypes in my area, but Vexing Shusher and Pyrostatic Pillar seem very important and probably are going to be 4-of. I also like Searing Blaze, specially with fetches.
Is Volcanic Fallout that important? I already have 4 but never used them...."
Volcanic Fallout is more or less important against all sort of Tribla decks, especially Goblins and Merfolk (Elves hasnt seen much play in my area and is definetly more rare, Burning Keycards is also a lot more hurting to them than other Tribals, thats my impression as far as I tested this MU). Running 2-3 is fine, if its needed depends completely on your meta but its also very useful against all kind of decks that spam the board with small bananas (Mana accelerators, utility creeps like Mother of the Runes, and stuff, also most Affinity lists) and offers very good trades.
Towards Pyrostatic pillar:
I am so confused about the card. I found myself just getting slapped by combo after turn 1 Duress so often that I nearly come to the conclusion that its not worth boarding. Sure, this is a bit exaggerated but it happens so damn often that I am kinda disappointed by the card itself. I am really thinking about dropping and playing Tormods Crypt instead. Crypt sets them off the Ill-gotten Gains loop and Ad Nauseum isnt THE plan against burn that you might have better chances with it than Pillar because beeing able to Tutorchain with Infernal isnt the typical play (even if they prefer it IF its possible).
Another upside is that you strenghten your Dredge MU which is horrible to be honest. Against an experienced player you wont come very far against Ancestors Chosen/Iona because they rape your hand with Therapy naming Vortex (Chosen is obviously weak with it) or Volcanic Fallout (Fireblast when youre ahead in the race). I would be glad to test those 4 Slots out some more because beeing so unimpressed by Pillar after testing intense against good pilots of ANT and TES.
IMO the chances of stealing a game via Crypt is nearly equal to Pillar and so it makes definetly more sense to me playing it instead. The minimal use against other decks that spit out many spells in one round isnt enough to convinve me to be honest.
Towards Shusher:
I play them as a 4 of back when CB was a DTB but luckily the number of the deck has dropped due to the Printing of Green Suns Zenith and the ridicoulous mana courve of decks like Affiniy which see tons of play atm. He is still a fine choice but I am pretty happy with a split of 3/1 or 2/2 of Smash to Smithereens (Shattering Spree is NOT necessary against neither StaXXX (Chalice Trini) like decks nor Affinity with the additional sb cards and Vortex) and Shusher and I would just play the whole playset of em if your meta is heavy blue. The thing is that another Bear can be awesome agaist Leyline but I think the decks that play those can handle creeps as well and so its not that convincing, bad that Anarchy is cc4... .
I play the following sb atm:
4 Tormods Crypt
4 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Vewxing Shusher
If you lack money for lavamancer and Chain Lightning you could assume that playing Searing Blaze maindeck and Spark Elemental could do a favour to you.
Greetings, youre welcome on criticising me on Crypt, discussion is progress!
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
I thought about that duress -> pillar problem too, im still going to test it, but crypt seems a viable option for the reasons you mentioned. Besides, its much faster than the pillar.
Smash to Smithereens also seems superior to Shattering Spree (which i use), the thing we need the most is to deal damage, and doing that on top of destroying an artifact is great.
About the Shusher, ill probably get 2-3 of them. 4 seems too much, and 1 too few. I might get 1 or 2 and then adjust to my meta.
Wouldent it be better to play Street Wraith if you want to thin the deck down. Usefull on turn one aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Street Wraith is a pretty bad idea. The card does nothing except replace itself for 2 life. With Manamorphse, which is also sort of dumb, at least you get to recycle your resources.
I can appreciate running fetches for lavamancer, but the perceived benefits of deck thinning are not actually worth the cost. If you are so concerned with running out of gas, try splashing blue for brainstorm. Even jankier would be running wheel of fate or browbeat.
Landing a Sulfuric Vortex actually solves the problem of running out of burn spells, because if your opponent tries to kill you, its going to cost him a lot more then the mana symbols on the card.
As far as sideboard options go, don't forget the most tech burn card ever - Ensnaring Bridge. Blasts are worth more than Shushers, it costs less to protect your spells, and makes you faster. Smash to Smithereens is pretty awesome as well. Blowing up a chrome mox in response to the imprint trigger makes me smile every time.
Well I never said it was a good idea. Just better then Manamorphose.
As for combo hate it seems you have overlooked Pyrostatic Pillar. Preaty damn awsome if you resolve it. Sure they can bounce it but its gonna cost em alot to do so. Unless they have the bounce in hand but its still a very vallid option.
"As for combo hate it seems you have overlooked Pyrostatic Pillar. Preaty damn awsome if you resolve it. Sure they can bounce it but its gonna cost em alot to do so. Unless they have the bounce in hand but its still a very vallid option."
- Wrong. Not overlooked, considered not the best card for several reasons mentioned above. Sure its a vallid option but not the card I am totally convinced by. Having Bounce in hand is NOT the only option to get rid of Pillar, thats (sadly) for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
I agree in the Tormod's Crypt >> Pyrostatic Pillar debate.
You can see it in the Sullivan semifinal video at SCGO He never reach 1R to play Pillar and face Duress in the 2nd game that gets Pyroblast. Tormod's Crypt seems a better option, and helps in the Dredge match.
Seems that pyrostatic pillar is too vulnerable/slow to be the reliable threat its suposed. I also thought about Mindbreak Trap, but its vulnerable to duress too. So im dropping those for crypt, or something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocho
So, gameplans Vs combo:
- Dredge -> Crypt
- Belcher -> No pillar, so maybe instant artifact hate? (refered in previous posts)
- Ad Nauseam -> I think this is much winnable without any SD
- Dream Halls -> Pyroblast/ ReB? They might splash black for discard, or worse, white for Leyline of Sanctity which completly screws burn. Good thing that people dont use that leyline too much.
- Show and Tell -> ReB too?
More opinions, more combo decks, etc......
Btw, this thread's op pales in comparison to others.
I good thing to ask yourself is 'what matchups will I expect to face?'' Legacy is the most diverse cast to choose from of all the formats in magic put together(maybe). Your sideboard is even tougher. You can board for Blue with Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast at some numbers or full amount. If you want game against Dredge and anything else like that you can go Tormod's Crypt. Pyrostatic Pillar is our combo nuker or safeguard. I like Searing Blast for random critters but I have not seen this card as much as the rest of the board. If you want to drop your Dredge matchup and go for Pillar it can be a fine choice. Dredge and Storm combo are both much more inconsistant compared to Burn so pick your poison and if you do not have anything to board just hope to rip a hand of seven containing a turn three win on the draw or they are on Ad Naus and get themselves done in , or they are on Dredge and using the Flashback ability to -3 draw cards. (And I mean, actually draw the cards.)
How about Chalice of the Void? It shuts down LED, Moxes, Lotus Petal......We can play it for 0 on turn 1 so chances of it being duressed are far less than pillar's, and it may give us the time we need to burn them.
Against dredge though, Crypt really seems our best bet.
Hey guys, what do you think about New Phirexia and our dear deck? I have mixed feelings. On one hand perhaps Mental Misstep places Combo decks in worse situation. On the other hand if you look for example to Sullivan list, Misstep won't seem our best friend: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=42252
At least we are not dependent on any spell, but Merfolks for example could defend easier our Grim, FOD, REB… (just speculation)
Also Sword of War and Peace seems the hardest one to deal with (protection against us+gain life). But well, at most, more reason to go with Smash to Smithereens/Sulfuric Vorex.
Finally, we can propose Mental Misstep in our side. It has interesting targets against Spiral Tide, TES, Dredge and Reanimator. Thoughts?
They're basically paying 2 life to counter a spell. That's good for the burn player. It will not affect by any means Burn's gameplan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azel Orfat
Probably this will be the least played sword (paired with UG). I cannot see any reason to play this over WB if you want the lifegain. And burn creatures in response to equip is always a huge tempo loss for opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azel Orfat
Probably not worth, it's really strong only versus Reanimator ( Ritual, Personal Tutor, Entomb,Reanimate as best targets) and Reanimator is not a deck you want to dedicate SB slots to. Spiral Tide is not played in my area, but I can imagine it gets hurted a lot by Misstep. Again you should ask yourself if you want to dedicate SB slots to a marginal deck which goldfishes in your same turn. Against Dredge Tormod's Crypt, or the discard effect faerie (sorry I can't remember its name atm) seem superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azel Orfat
Well, 2 lifes cost is optional. Anyway, I wouldn't be too happy if they cut my Guide, Grim, FOD or Lynx despite they pay 2 lifes. But I also think it's not a big problem for this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Agreed! If your opponent opts to pay the two life to counter your Lightning Bolt with a Mental Misstep, then they have effectively prevented themselves one damage. I am not sure how everyone else feels about it, but I am totally okay with that. Sure they can pay one blue to have the same effect but in this format most decks rely on speed and will likely pay the life in many cases. All things considered, if they counter a Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide, maybe it is better than a 1 damage prevention but I would say it is still trivial. I am not worried about this card hurting burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
I agree that in a pure Burn deck (with no creatures) Mental Misstep wouldn't be important but I'm not sure about that in current versions. With Misstep they have more option to deal with our creatures when they are more relevant. They could cut our best start (Goblin Guide) even without lose life on the play. If they Misstep/FOW my first creature, probably my second would find removal soon, so I think they could control our creatures without too many problems.
Absolutely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scordata
1: Blast can and will be countered by Counterbalance
2: There's no need to race a control deck, you can afford to be 2 turns slower than normal
I have some thoughts on this that I would like to discuss with everyone. We have actually been discussing this same issue in the Reanimator thread. As a player of both decks, I truly believe that MM does have the potential to devastate Reanimator; however, skilled players will play around it just like they play around Daze, FOW, and graveyard hate. Remember that Reanimator usually runs counters and discard which they can use to foil this sideboard plan. That being said I agree that MM does not belong in a Burn sideboard. Something a bit better like Crypt should be our plan for both Dredge and Reanimator. As a Reanimator player, my heart just sinks when I see a turn one (or any turn that is faster than I am for that matter) crypt on the other side of the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
As for filling out that last 4 slot in this deck, I would suggest testing/running Figure of Destiny. I just started testing this guy out, but he is pretty solid. Sure he eats removal, but so do all the other creatures we run. His ability to turn excessive land hands into quick board position and his presence as an attacker is great either alone or in tandem with goblin guide(s). Leaving open mana and attacking with him, creates headaches for opponents. If you don't need to pump unload with burn in second main phase. My goldfishes with him as a turn one play are usually a turn slower (unless you draw the nuts) ending on turns 4-5, but he gives you a solid option no matter when you draw him. My opinion is that he is a better option than either Manamorphose or Street Wraith. Just a thought.
"As for filling out that last 4 slot in this deck, I would suggest testing/running Figure of Destiny. (...). My opinion is that he is a better option than either Manamorphose or Street Wraith. Just a thought."
- Hes definetly better than Street Wraith/Manamorphose for sure (as nearly each card would be better in that Slot...) and I wouldnt slap someone for playing him over Vortex. I think it was pointed out enough in the past that the deck mosty should include the same 52-56 cards right now and the rest is down to your meta/size of tourney.
Atm I am not convinced that I cut the Vortexes in the future because Counterbalance decks will see more play after the release of NPH (and so will Merfolk, and then Zoo and so on...) and GW Maverick will be accepted as a DTB at some point (maybe because it is one of the best not-played deck in some countries/areas right now?) and then I simply wont accept to fold to "in response sword my Knight" and "pay 2, equip Jitte get in there for blablabla" and long lasting games and getting my ass whooped with just CC1&2 in my deck. Right now it might be a good call but I think in the future it really isnt.
Towards the Pyrostatic Pillar Problem: Lost to ANT with 2 Pillars in my opener, one getting Duressed one get bounced by Chain of Vapor in the last tourney. The game went allover just wrong with me drawing Fetches instead of Fuel and sure it was a bit unlucky but thats not very rare as far as I experienced.
Just think of I had only 1 Pillar, my opponent would have laughed at me hard and just Tendrils Boojah! in my face. To make things clear: PILLAR. DOE'SNT. BEAT. COMBO. even in multiples. It can but it isnt reliable and then I am more likeley to go the Tormods Crypt route and cripple their Mainboard and Cabal Rits and just cross fingers that they wont win with Ad Nauseum or Tutorchain which lead to nearly the same results as playing a less flexible card and loosing to Dredge also.
About MM against Burn: Let 'em come!