with 8 chants you could sometimes time walk 2 turns into your combo..that being said i still think it's not right/
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with 8 chants you could sometimes time walk 2 turns into your combo..that being said i still think it's not right/
I believe what he is suggesting is that with 8 chant you can more often go off through fow in the early turns. While i disagree, its a decent idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
No, 4 Orim's Chant, 3 Duress and SB Pyroblast might be the best configuration, but 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Silence improve the structure of the deck for Ill Gotten Gains and Chrome Mox so it should at least be tested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
How would that improve anything? You're scooping to the deck you need to win against.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
@Bryant Cook.
Regarding to this list :
The EPIC Storm
By Bryant Cook
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall
I think you and me are making the addecuate approach but I disagree with you in some points :
I exactly I have been playing the almost side , at first I didn't play g.shot but I noticed in one game I lost I wouldn't if I had it in side, hurkils is neccessary. too.
But I noticed as well that playing 1 infernal tutor in side makes D.Returns completly useless so instead that slot could be : 1 REB or 1 Vindicate, which I prefer the first option.
My E.Truth slot is replaced by Slugther pact , but that personal preferenc I think.
Regardin to the base , I absolutly find the configuration of 10 lands multicolored perfect ( 2 U.Paradise , 1-1 forbiddian,etc),, so not neccesity of playiong 11 not multicolored. ¿?
So the logical suit is -1 land = +1 ponder,
A thinking of mine is that ponder is making the job sometimes better than Brainnstorm becuase of the lack of not many sufflers. So boys , in general the combination of 4 ponders 4 brainstorm believe me is absolutly necessary.
Regarding to the 2nd A.N , only becuase of the possibilities of beeing discarded, possibility I do NOT contemplate, prefer the number 2.
Granted, but 8 white cards improves the odds of imprinting white on Chrome Mox and 8 Chant/Silence improves the odds of double Chant/Silence to punch thru' Force of Will for Ill Gotten Gains. You're worsening the Counterbalance match up to improve the Control match up, obviously that may not be the best choice, but 8 Chant/Silence Storm.dec is bound to have its advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I'm perfectly happy with the disruption configuration as it is (I argued until I was blue in the face for Duress vs Counterbalance) but Silence deserves serious testing IMO.
@Pelinkanudo
SB Infernal Tutor is not > than SB Diminishing Returns, Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam costs 9 mana compared to Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns and that's not an inconsequential difference in actual play. Also, I think 1 MD Ad Nauseam is fine, if Ad Nauseam is discarded you can still IGG or Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens for just +1 mana.
We going to see changes to the lists after the m10 rule changes?
igg is going main deck, 1 chant is being replaced by a silence.
After having played against some decks (Dreadstill, Merfolk, Pikulish decks), i realized how much this deck really suffers Wasteland. A single Wasteland can compromise this deck at a point when you're stuck with 0 lands on the field and your opponent is raping your face. For this reason, I chose to go up to the 12th land. I know that in this way "speed is compromised, bla bla bla", but I wouldn't really be sure bringing to a tourney a deck that is hurt so much from such a widely-played card ( at least, here in Italy). I think the 4th ponder is accessory, so i run 3 of them and used that slots as the 12th land. I put a Bloodstained Mire, because i felt that Fetchlands , in this deck, can somehow be more useful at some extent than Rainbow Lands since they protect themselves better from LD, bring sinergy with Brainstorm/Ponder, and thin your deck (paradoxally, in this deck this is the least effect).
And I was wondering: would it be possible to cut some City of Brass to add few Fetchlands? To me having a little further vulnerability to Stifle< total vulnerability to Wasteland, since the first is played only in (some) blue decks, while the 2nd is nowadays a common staple in many archetypes. A very low number of fetches shouldn't make Stifle too relevant, though ( it's not like we'd be ANT playing 2 full sets).
My main concern about this issue is that this deck, being a 3c+a light splash for the 4th, could theorically work with a combination of three colours (therefore, using dual lands), and with some Rainbow Lands to support W for Orim's Chant. So far, i tried 7 Rainbow Lands, and i had only rare problems.
What do you think about this?
4 Gemstones
2-3 City of Brass
-----------------
1-2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
The fact about the 12th land is that you usually want to open with 2 lands in hand, no more, no less. I opened too many hands with 1 or even 0 lands, IRL. 1 is risky unless you're going off immediately ( which is as much as risky , espeially facing a blue deck), 3 is too much. I think that a prefect 1/5 of the deck being lands could be quite good to pull off that 2 initial lands.
Anyone tested this too, agrees/disagrees?
It's 2 Orim's Chant and 2 Silence, not being able to Infernal Tutor for another Silence isn't worth the kicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by lebron jim
You may very well be right, I was just rehashing what Bryant had already stated.
@BreatheWeapon
@Picceli
Regarding this list :
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 undiscovered Paradise (or whatever combination of forbiddian)
Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Cabal therapy
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Slaughter pact
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall
My thougths are next :
I'm on the side as B.Weapon that the number of A.N must be 1, it's its natural number, as we have tutors to find it, and as a tutored card is much better.
Definately , Cabal ritual has been only good for me post A.N , and even that way I do not like to eat 2 add damage, if you notice this is equatable :
1 mystical tutor -> D.Ritual = 1 Cabal R in hand + 1 rite of flame in the next draw step.
I like also the full package of both ponder+brainstorm and orims + duress.
I agree with you Picceli
Also , I'd like to put in 2 lands more I'm thinking about how could be that configuration :
I've been trying :
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic island
or
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic island
1 polluted delta
1 Flooded strand
I prefer the first one simply because avoids stifle ,
But which cards will you take out from the list above exposed?
Maybe 1 duress and 1 orims ?
or 1 duress 1 c.mox ?
or 1 duress 1 IGG ?
Ideas, suggestions, Onions(pi) ?
Would Abeyance > Chant in this deck? get to keep your card number up
Tournament Report: 2nd Place (M10 Rules)
MD
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Orim's Chant
3 Duress
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Forbidden Orchard
SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Duress
1 Maelstorm Pulse (Filler)
1 Death Mark
4 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
Regarding the build, 1 Ad Nauseam, 0 Ill Gotten Gains and 4 Tinder Wall, I decided - the Ad Nauseam + Lion's Eye Diamond and Mirage Tutor/Cantrip interaction, there's no point in using 2+ Ad Nauseam in TES other than for threat density. Protecting Ad Nauseam from Duress thru' redundancy is pointless, because even if Duress discard Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor can still tutor for Burning Wish and win via Ill Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens. With 1 5cc, 1 4cc, 8 2cc, 27 2cc, 23 0cc and 4 0/3 blockers, I've found Ill Gotten Gains a "dead draw" more often than not. Infernal Tutor doesn't need a second MD target, because at worst Meddling Mage is just a "double Sphere of Resistance" by forcing Infernal Tutor to find Burning Wish (and disabling 1 card instead of 4 cards with Meddling Mage is a HUGE gambit).
Mystical Tutor is sub-optimal, with out T2 Mystical Tutor + LED into Ad Nauseam, your a turn too slow vs Counterbalance esq. decks on the play and they can see our strategy a mile away. TES is sufficiently redundant in threats, disruption, acceleration and most importantly speed, so it's more important to rely on mulligans and not a "band aid" tutor that diminishes the explosiveness of the deck.
We've been over Tinder Wall, but IMO, TES wants every last 1cc accelerant. The card is so useful as a blocker, accelerant, mana fixer and "Tinder Wall, go" for +RR is well worth the weakness to STP. Frankly, we played Xantid Swarm and Vexing Shusher regardless of STP, so I don't think it should even be an argument. Honestly if the opponent is keeping in STP on the off chance we'll pass the turn when we play it, he's SBing out something more important for Blue Elemental Blast.
5 Rounds of Single Elimination
Round 1: Goblins
I keep,
City of Brass
Glimmer Void
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Tinder Wall
Dark Ritual
Burning Wish
Game 1
Opponent leads with "Lackey, go" and I respond with "Tinder Wall, go" after drawing another Chrome Mox. Opponent Stingscroungers my Tinder Wall, connects with Goblin Lackey and plays Siege-Gang Commander. I draw Ponder, Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns and drop a dead Chrome Mox for Glimmervoid. Opponent leads into me for 8 after Goblin Warchief hits the board, but I manage to draw a second Tinder Wall, imprint it on Chrome Mox to cast Tinder Wall and then unload into Diminishing Returns for the win.
Game 2
Opponent drops Mogg Fanatic, I drop 16 goblins off Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam into Burning Wish - opponent scooped.
Round 2: Affinity
Game 1
I keep the NUTZ
Affinity doesn't play Force of Will, bad for Affinity ...
Game 2
I keep
3 Tinder Wall
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Glimmer Void
1 Infernal Tutor
Triple Tinder Wall keeps the beats off long enough for me to top deck an artifact and an accelerant after hitting a chain of Ponders.
Round 3 BUG Landstill
A long, drawn out match. Thankfully BUG Landstill doesn't have MD Counterbalance or SB Mage/Cannonist and no clock, so it's just a question of slugging it out pound for pound against their counters and top decking out of their Wasteland. Thankfully Stifle does shit vs TES now, Ad Nauseam just improved the match up a frickin' ton.
Round 4 Survival
Game 1
I know what this guy usually plays, so I keep a hand with out disruption and go for the kill on the draw. Unfortunately, assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, because he decided to run Stifle/Naught and I eat Stifle after a Diminishing Returns into Tendrils of Agony.
Game 2
Lesson learned, I Duress thru' Force of Will and dump Goblins on the board - GG.
Game 3
Opponent mulligans himself to death.
Round 5 UGR Dreadstill
Game 1
I keep a Cantrip heavy hand and come up short, after being savaged by Tarmogoyf I top deck Infernal Tutor, at which point I don't have the life for Ad Nauseam or the mana for Burning Wish - boo.
Game 2
I board in Empty the Warrens, my opponent boards in Engineered Explosives and takes me to frown town.
All in all, I still feel like I'm behind the aggro-control match up (if you call Dread Still aggro-control) but the deck did what it was suppose to do and I only paid for SBing IGG once - which I still think is the right call, because drawing IGG is a mull to 6 and it happens more than being ran down on life IMO.
The very reason that induced me to introduce fetchlands in my build of TES is, other than a slightly more resistance to Wasteland, the fact that sometimes you really open with shitty hands ( One example? Tendrils, Burning Wish, IGG, Brainstorm, Land, Chrome mox, Land.), and fetches allows you to sculpt incredibly-good hand from a mediocre one. Brainstorm counting only on Ponders, mysticals and (rarely) Infernal tutor to give you a good dose of Card Quality through shuffle effects is utopic ( and really slow); the majority of the times, you'll just draw 3, and wait to draw the other useless cards back. So I decided to go for it and try a version which relies on a medium quantity of Fetchlands; i kept 5 rainbow lands essentially for Orim's Chant. Of course there are also some changes: this is just a testing, i took Kolowith's GP list and tinkered it a bit, adding and subtracting what i liked/disliked the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Volcanic Island (cut Badlands because getting it in initial hand with Cantrips simply sucks)
1 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
// Spells
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [B] Dark Ritual
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [US] Duress
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
5 Fetches for the aforementioned purposes, but not that much like Ft because we don't need that many duals, and I don't want Stifle to become too relevant. 1 Cabal ritual because it's obviously synergic with fetches, and may balance post-AN the lack of the 4th Chrome Mox ( which isn't there because it's goddamn awful to draw 2 moxes in the inital hand, it's by far the card that i hate more in this deck, i won't stop repeating that. I'd rather risk fizzling with AN than playing the full set). The singleton Pact of Negation is there as an experiment, i know it's antisynergic with LEDs, but its main purpose is to protect an Orim's Chant against blue-based decks, double protection for W. I think that, with 3 Tutors getting both these pieces, it's a manageable play. The rest is pretty much conventional, the only thing one could notice is the lack of IGG maindeck; this because, like Mox, i hated to draw it in initial hand, and, at a lesser degree, to flip it with AN sometimes ( ok Bryant, i recognize this).
This build also lacks Bounce MD, which is the only real thing i dislike about it ( no room at all, unfortunately). But there's still always Burning Wish, even if it can't get rid of Counterbalance ( however, even Chain of vapor rarely did).
I repeat, I added these changes (which aren't definitive at all, it's just a little tweak on the regular list) because i felt the deck was too much luck-dependant: sometimes you open god draws, sometimes you open such shitty hands that you can't do nothing but mulligan or attempt to win on turn 6. This is a huge inconsistency of the deck, that i felt somehow needed to be improved. perhpas its just me who can't open decent hands (God didn't give me the Sacred gift called Luck).
Why did the event have m10 rules?
@Breath Weapon
I really like your list ...
But after watching at it the question I have is:
Why don't you run 10 lands , and for example +1Duress or +1 IGG or +1 chain of vapor? I hate the 11 number¡¡¡ , at least try to fit 12 lands¡¡¡
Why don't you play chain of vapor?
Definately no cabal ritual , in my opinion Tinder wall is by far superior...
and definately 1 AN.
I really like the approach about 4 ponder 4 brainstorm and 4 burning,
I mean if you play 4 burning really there is no need of playing m.tutors or chain of vapor or IGG , cards which functionaly can be perfectly provided by b.wish.
Because 11 lands are optimal for drawing 1 land in your starting hand, and there's nothing I want to cut for 12 lands and nothing I need to add for 10 lands. At most, I'd MD Duress for Forbidden Orchard and SB Cabal Therapy, but frankly I think it's unnecessary.
I don't run IGG because it's a mulligan to 6 and a top deck brick.
I don't run Chain of Vapor because I don't run Mystical Tutor.
MD aside, I really think you guys should 1 Shattering Spree, 1 Simplify and 1 Death Mark instead of 1 Hull Breach and 1 Grape Shot (you can still run Grape Shot in the open slot if you find it useful) because 1 mana makes a HUGE difference when it comes to removing your target and going off in the same turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Would IGG have come in handy here? Perhaps it is personal preference, but I generally IGG-loop people to death. I use Ad Nauseam as my 1-of "oh shit" button instead of the centerpiece of the deck which seems to be how it functions for most of the others here.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Yesterday, I participated in a few informal single-elimination tournaments with a few changes to my normal decklist. The biggest change for me was more disruption and moving Empty the Warrens to the board (+1 duress +SB Empty the Warrens). Two Game-1's could have been won, if I'd have had EtW maindeck. It is my secondary kill condition just fyi.
By putting EtW in the side and removing IGG maindeck, it feels like you are putting all your eggs in the Ad Nauseam basket. TES used to have a bevy of threats and outs but now you are narrowing the focus to being dependent on AN with only Burning Wish allowing you to find other threats. This seems like a poor judgement call. I run more acceleration than most lists I've seen lately, and I don't have excess mana most of the time, so infernal -> wish -> IGG is not something I can afford on a consistent basis.
I agree with you in every thing, I didnt know simplify card... better detahmark+simplyfy+spree than pyroclasm +grapeshot+spree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
CAn you expose the reasons why you do not run mystical?
my reasons is mainly because not need when playing 4 ponder 4 brainstorm 4 burnin and 4 i.tutor agree, any other addition?
And why glimmervoid>forbiddian>u.paradise in my opinion is :
glimmervoid<forbiddian<u.paradise