It takes 2 noughts, but you do have the ability to play the first and Vial in the second with the first's cip trigger on the stack.
It's more likely that you'll need a stifle, but you don't have to completely rely on it to drop a 12/12.
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It takes 2 noughts, but you do have the ability to play the first and Vial in the second with the first's cip trigger on the stack.
It's more likely that you'll need a stifle, but you don't have to completely rely on it to drop a 12/12.
Right, but for this you need 3 cards in hand. You will never be leaving a vial on 1 in any normal circumstances, and you usually won't start with all of it. The chance is small enough that it doesn't really permit any "well, we don't need stifle" type of thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
Personally I'm finding the White splash to be pretty nice... Swords to Plowshares does wonders for this deck... Seal of Cleansing is no Krosan Grip, but running three I find I usually have decent luck with resolving them and/or being able to find a second copy. Also, Jotun Grunt is an absolute house coming out of the sideboard in matchups where I want a non-tribal, or just reliably large, creature. This is because in matchups like this, you can just slow roll the Grunt for a turn or two until the graves fill up, which generally happens quickly in the type of attrition wars where you want to use Grunt as a beater. In a matchup where they're trying to kill your shit, you're trying to counter or kill their shit, and creatures are trading left and right, Grunt is an absolute all-star. I haven't really played against a deck where I need to use Grunt as graveyard hate, but I'm a little fearful that he's not going to be nearly as good as Relic when it comes to that job.
As far as green, maybe it's just that the list I tested with Goyf might not have been as well tuned as my white list, maybe it's just my personal prejudice against Goyf. I haven't playtested it much, basically because testing would have to show me I had to play Goyf before I would want to...
What it boils down to for me, ultimately, is that my testing has shown that it's more valuable to be able to surgically control the board with StP than it is to clog it up additionally with extra beef like Goyf. Obviously, StP comes out in g2 and g3 of some match-ups where Goyf would probably stay in, but I think ultimately it provides a more valuable tool for our general game plan. Not to mention that staying mostly in-tribe becomes a lot more attractive when we have access to artifact/enchantment removal to answer Engineered Plague and its accursed ilk... So having a good non-tribal beater becomes less of an issue, I find. :tongue:
Phoenix basically said it all and even better then I could regarding the Uwg version. The thing for me is that this build eliminates some weaknesses of the U Merfolk deck without loosing its power. So I do not see were the U version is more solid from the spells point of view. The UWg version still plays everything that is good in Merfolks what basically is the Vial, Standstill, Mutavault, Wasteland Package, plus 16 Folks plus Countermagic. In addition you get better draw (Fetchlands, Brainstorm), Removal and one Beater that is big on his own, plus some better SB choices. The only weakness I see is the mana base which - from the discussion so far - should have become playable. In terms of matchups I think that this slighty improves your Control Matchup and U based Aggro Control (this usually is dominated by Vial and Islandwalk) because of an uncounterable Goyf. It possibly also improves your Aggro Control matchup because we now have Goyf to stall or win and Swords to pick up some threats (usually Aggro Control doesnt play too much of these). We have an improved matchup against Aggro through removal and a Goyf although I am not saying that it is enough for some matchups to break the 50% mark (Goyfsligh still is hard). Overall we loose a little against decks playing non-basic hate but I think this deck is prepared to deal with e.g. using Vial and Countermagic and still a high amount of U main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
LoL. I really had to laugh when I read your post. It is the same over here. I always fall in love with the idea again and again, try it out and after a couple of games I have to decide that Dreadnought it is simply not reliable enough in a Hybrid build. I just recently tried out a transformation SB with the Uwg build because I thought that now with playing Brainstorm, Fetchlands and stuff including and finding Dreadnoughts or Stifle would be easier. Guess what? There were still games I had 2 Dreadnought, 2 Brainstorm and no Stifle or Trickbind showing in the next 8 cards. So it is still a very inconsistent Win Condition ( btw i played 4 Noughts, 2 Trinket Mages, 1 Trickbind and 4 Stifle in that Transform SB). Another problem is that although you CAN include Dreadnought, you can not protect him with just 7-8 Counterspells. Last but not least you usually board Dreadnought against Aggro decks with R/x like Goyfsligh or maybe Burn. For these matchups it gives you the speed and the big dude that ensures an easy wins (if he shows up). Against B/x aggro with a lot of discard Dreadnought obviously is not that good. I think it even worsens your B/x matchup e.g. against Eva Green / B Suicide because Dreadnought and Stifle are just dead slots becasue Discard will most likely leave you without the combo in hand. Maybe Stifle has some value against Deeds here Game 2 but thats it. I would never board Dreadnought against control or aggro control / U becasue it is already a positive matchup and Dreadnought is far to risky in these matchups because you trade 1:2 more than 50% of the cases either to Swords, Counters, Artifact hate ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
So the basic line is that a Dreadnought main or SB improves your R/x matchup very much but inconsistently and slightly worsens all other matchups because you have no way to protect an active Dreadnought. For it eats up a lot of slots to be effective (minumum 3 Dreadnoughts, 4 Stifle should be played and I recommend 1 Trickbind and Trinket Mages) either main or in the SB I'd rather go for solutions that ensure better matchups against a larger field of decks.
Would Children of Korlis perhaps be a better sideboard option against Storm combo, etc, than Chalice for zero? I mean, the argument that they can just bounce it and win doesn't really hold much water, since the same is true of Chalice... And it seems that Children more directly stands in the way of their game plan than Chalice does, since I'd rather just not lose life from their attempts to go off than shut them out of their zero-mana accelerators.
Just looking for an option that seems a little more constructive to me at first blush at hindering ANT or TEPS' game plan... Not to mention that Children would perform pretty well against decks that use red, which are still somewhat of a thorn in our side even if we splash colors.
What do y'all think? Who's ready to sacrifice some Children with me? :wink:
I think this doesnt work the way you intend it to. Have you already lost life this turn? The kiddies will only give you life when their ability resolves, they won't peer into the future and stop future life-loss from an imminent Tendrils. If you sacrifce them in advance they can just combo the next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
Wait until Tendrils copies down you to 1-2 life, sacrifice Children in responce to fatal Tendrils.
What he means is sacrificing the Children right before the last copy of Tendrils (which is actually the original Tendrils) resolves.
/e: got me!
If Storm Combo really is such a problem, play Stifle. Or am I saying something crazy and wacky now?
That's definitely one way to deal with it, but it sort of takes us back to square one. I've tried the mono blue list with maindeck Stifles, the "traditional" list of this deck, and I like it fine. However, I'm trying to shake it up a little bit, and I've been loving my white splash so far in testing. However, to splash a color, some sacrifices had to be made, and Stifle has been dropped from my main-deck from some time now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
I suppose you could say, "Just play it in the sideboard then." I really don't like Stifle as a sideboard card though, because its uses as a sideboard choice are pretty limited (it doesn't pwn THAT many decks) and pretty conditional (you have to draw it, and then have the one blue mana open to react). I tend to like sideboard cards which are permanents better than instants or sorceries, because I prefer a sustained presence over a one-time effect.
Also, as far as Children of Korlis goes, I think it would be a better generalized sideboard card against the rest of the field, besides Storm Combo decks. It needs testing, but it seems to me that it would be adequate against Storm, and perform pretty nicely against some other decks which we have a hard time with, such as Burn, Goyf Sligh, etc. As far as I see it, Storm Combo is not a huuuuuge onus against this deck, but it's good, and we should acknowledge it by having some sort of sideboard card against it if we lose the Stifles.
I'm just really not convinced that Chalice of the Void, as seen in Lybaert's top 8 list recently, is all that great in this deck. You can only play it on zero without hindering yourself. Although there are some match-ups where playing it on one would be a feasible strategy, I would think that other cards which didn't have a negative effect on our side of the board would almost certainly be better in these situations.
Children has exactly the same weakness which Chalice does against Storm, I would think: being bounced by the opposing player during his turn, so he can follow that by going off for the win. Against Storm, I would suspect that it wouldn't be quite as good perhaps as Chalice (which is in turn not as good as main-deck Stifle), but I think it would work comparably well to Chalice. In addition to that, it seems better than Chalice against the rest of the field to me. So, once more, who's ready to sacrifice some Children with me?
Also... @ Nekrataal: Thank you Captain Obvious... Who ever said anything about sacrificing them before they try to resolve the Storm count on Tendrils??? ...Not me, that's who...
If you're splashing White in Merfolk, how is Children of Korlis better than Orim's Chant against Storm Combo?
Chalice is a lot better than stifle versus combo, as set to 1 it turns off cantrips and tutors, making it hard to find a bounce spell in time. It does kill a bit of your own deck though.
Children aren't bad, doubling as a beater, but I think there are better options in UW.
How is something that can be countered, bounced, hinders yourself and can be played around be better than something that can merely be countered?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zir
Orim's Chant > Stifle. Being able to proactively and reactively disrupt the is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Why is Stifle being discussed anyhow? Maybe it's hearsay, but I always understood that Tendrils decks don't care about Stifle as they win once Ad Nauseum resolves. Is that not true against Merfolk? I mean as sideboard tech against combo, I'm aware Stifle is decent in the deck in general.
On a slight tangent, has anyone tried Galina's Knight in W/B builds? Just wondering if its better than any of the other 'folks since its available.
It doesn't take you all the way back to square one. But I don't see what's wrong with it. Innovation is only useful when you actually make stuff better. It's good to try new things, but when the old is better than the new, you have to face facts and head back.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
Against Storm Combo, yes, but Stifle is alot less narrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
That's nonsense. Storm Combo still has to cast Tendrills, and that stops when being Stifled. Well, the really lethal part anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
I'm not saying people should run Stifles in the main or in the side, that's really up to you. But I think you guys are straying from the path when suggesting Chalices and Children of Whatshisname when we already have a decent answer to Storm Combo. And when splashing white, and you're affraid of Storm Combo, Chant is a good option indeed.
Because stifle won't do jack shit versus the majority of storm combo out there. Suppose they don't chant you (which they will do most of the time) or duress it away, you're banking on them not being able to find and play another tendrils, which is pretty easy post Nauseam.Quote:
How is something that can be countered, bounced, hinders yourself and can be played around be better than something that can merely be countered?
Chalice OTOH, stops:
Cantrips
Duress
Chant
Dark Rit
Mystical Tutor
See where I'm going? One turns off half their deck, the other one is merely a hinderance.
Storm combos are very good decks. But to suggest they can shrug off every piece of disruption we have is ludicrous, and quite frankly, completely against play results. Yes, storm combo can chant before they go off and win, yes they can duress, yes they can fight through mana disruption and wastelands, and yes, they can combo off before a deck does enough damage to them so that AdN is auto-win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zir
But that just isn't the case with merfolk. Every piece of disruption hinders them enough to slow them down. Every turn they are slowed down is enough to pull off a couple cards off of an AdN, or force them to IGG loop. Neither of these are easy for storm to do, because if it could consistently beat us I would play it... since it consistently beats almost every other deck out there.
Certainly Stifle can be planned against, but it isn't our only defense against them, so it does do more than as you so eloquently put it, "jack shit."
You're banking on them not finding another tendrils, "which is pretty easy"???? I don't know if you've actually piloted combo, but try it out. It is not as easy as you would think to double tendrils after an AdN through heavy disruption. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, and they're not much bigger than two meters! But you need the force to blow up a friggin Death Star. FYI ANT runs one copy of IGG, one copy of Tendrils, and doesn't hit infinite mana when it gets AdN. Neither does TES.
It doesn't turn off the half of their deck that they win with, just the half that gets them closer to there. If you're banking on CotV to stop their combo, you're going to lose. At least Stifle can 1 shot them.Quote:
Nauseam.
Chalice OTOH, stops:
Cantrips
Duress
Chant
Dark Rit
Mystical Tutor
See where I'm going? One turns off half their deck, the other one is merely a hinderance.
Au contraire, once Storm Combo resolves Ad Nauseum, they will draw into Duress or Burning Wish for Duress, and/or Orim's Chant. That it why your plan against Ad Nauseum Combo decks is to counter/disrupt Ad Nauseum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
I'd go as far as to say that Chalice is probably better anti-combo tech than Stifle because it at least hinders them from casting Ad Nauseum.