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I just want to do something with basic ANT, none of the crazy awesome color splashes. This is what I have come up with below. Let me know whats up, and what needs to be changed.
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lion’s eye diamond
2 chrome mox
2 mox diamond
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 gitaxian probe
4 duress
3 thought sieze
4 infernal tutor
1 ill gotten gains
1 ad neausium
1 tendrils of agony
4 darkslick shores
4 gemstone mine
4 polluted delta
2 island
3 swamp
I assume you haven't included Underground Sea for budget reasons but I feel like pointing out that using some of those and more blue fetch lands would be better because of the interaction with Ponder and Brainstorm.
Darkslick Shores is pretty much exactly as good as the Sea here though.
Sure: nobody expects the spanish inquisiiton! (ups wrong deck)Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
It isn't and it's not even close.....Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy
Now with mm being banned, the discard effects will be a lot more effective and noone is taking your brainstorm away.
also...it's ad nauseam
Ok so I know seas would be better, but lets just say I can't afford it (which is the trueth) how many games on average, as a percent, would it cost me to run shores or any of the other lands which produce blue and black, like a rav dual?
In a deck that punishes each point of dmg coming at its owner (ad nauseum, fetchlands, thought seize) those extra 2 points of CIPT dmg are going to be significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by thatoneguy
You need to be using life as a resource to cast spells, not play lands. Shores simply won't work because they're not fetchable.
I'd say that the difference between Darkslick Shores and USea is not THAT great when we're talking about UB ANT, because most of the time you're fetching for basics anyway. However, if you play 3 or more colors, the difference in powerlevel becomes too great. The manabase of UB ANT is very stable, so you can throw in some suboptimal lands (although I'd avoid playing shocklands) and not be hurt that much by it. I think you should try and buy just 1 USea, because just one copy of the card will allow you to make a very solid manabase with a lot of fetches and basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by thatoneguy
I have been playing a list similar to yours for almost a year now; for reference, this is the list. In my experience, I almost always have basic lands in play; that's why a lot of these lists run such a high number of fetchlands and basic lands. Most of the time, the only time I ever fetch for a dual land is the turn I plan on winning; as a caveat, the reason I get a dual is because the fetchland I have in play does not get me the necessary mana I need. I don't know what your budget is, but you can buy an Underground Sea for $60 - $70 on eBay which isn't unreasonable. You can probably get away with playing one Underground Sea. However, your biggest issue isn't the lack of an Underground Sea, its your lack of fetch lands. Fetchlands make Ponder and Brainstorm so much more powerful because of the shuffle effects to get rid of cards that are undesirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by thatoneguy
I don't know if I'm in the minority on this issue, but Mox Diamond seems so much worse than any number of other cards you could have in the deck. I understand that it has an upside post Ad Nauseam, but those upsides weighed against the times in which you don't get it when flipping with Ad Nauseam, or have it in hand without a land to discard seem much worse. You could probably sell your Mox Diamonds and get a good start on picking up an Underground Sea. Plus, Sea will have more value if you ever decide to change decks.
If your looking for something on a budget, the list below is a good place to start:
Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Instants
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp
Lands
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
The mana base is relatively cheap. If you act quickly, you can pick up Misty Rainforest and Verdant Catacombs as Standard players dump their copies with the rotation coming up. The fetchland combination will let you reliably get access to a stable land base while maximizing the shuffle effects in the deck. It also runs Preordain which is more effective than Gitaxian Probe in its ability to dig which his what you want to be doing. While Probe may provide you with information, you're also running seven maindeck Duress effects which should be sufficient to provide you with necessary information to win. This is why Preordain is better; you can dig for your discard spells more effectively. The benefit of Probe is that it is free. However, when flipping it with Ad Nauseam, you have treat it like a -3 instead of -1 since you'll likely be paying the alternative casting cost.
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1 blazing achron
1 iona
1 jin
side board
3 jin-gitasis
3 animate dead
3 reanimate
3 careful study
3 entomb
so game 2, i drop 4 lotus petal, 4 cabel ritual, 1, igg, 1 ad nauseum, 1 tendrils, 1 duress, gitaxis probe
What do you think guys
I'm not sure what matchups you would ever want to well.. become a worse combo deck. Reanimator had a presence in a misstep era because it was able to capitalize, very well on the first 2-3 turns of the game. ANT is a deck that is able to sit and develop its game - it doesn't mind if the deck hits the mid game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
I guess my question is, when would I want to be resolving an animate dead over an ad nauseum? When would it be easier for an opponent boarding against a combo deck to resolve an entomb over a dark ritual? A good player boarding against a combo player is going to bring in grave hate, chalice style hate (pick your poison), and maybe pithing needle or something like that - the decks require the same action to perform well. It would just be a bad reanimator deck without counter backup. Lacking the full package of discard and reanimation would make it slower than normal reanimator as well.
And now the deck has 5 cards maindeck that are essentially auto-muls. It has no outs to resolved leyline/grave hate or permanent based hate of any kind.
Yes, game two can be harder than game 1 but that's the fun of combo, playing around a competent opponent; and changing the entire deck in a way that seems counter-intuitive might make it harder than simply playing decks to interact with your opponent. Or, you can always just win turn 1.
yeaaaaaaah........
counter balance, any new ideas on how to approach this matchup now that it will be heavily played again?
doomsday is still real, krosan grip still costs 3 one of which needs to be green. wipe away is a card. i guess reverent silence is as well.
fish will be big again but i never really worried about that deck
or i guess just jam past in flames in TNT and see what happens, need to work on these.
I don't think I understand what the question is.. Is there a question here? Maybe just a comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Counter balance is half of the reason people used to play 4 Doomsday in their sideboards... I still don't know what the question is.
the question/ statement is meant to foster discussion in the direction towards counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
i was also just thinking of ideas of how to beat it, sorry if my posting is kind of ramble-y
the real question is: has anyone thought of anything else besides doomsday? which although is powerful, the jig is up and competent players know what's going on.
I haven't played this deck since the banning of Mystical Tutor, but I tried everything imaginable against Counterbalance. I found the best way to beat it was Krosan Grips, bobs, and thoughtseizes out of the board, and a lot of practice. I probably played the ANT vs CB MU for 3-4 hours a day every day (college heh). It got to the point where I would beat any CB player who didn't test against extensively against ANT, and my testing partner actually never lost to ANT in any tournament.
Comparatively, I think your deck is a less consistent and less powerful version of both ANT and Reanimator respectively. I understand the concept of hybridization that you're going for and it works well in decks such as Bant and RUG which can have a "oops I win" top deck with Natural Order. However, the nature both ANT and Reanimator as linear strategies means the deck should be as streamlined as possible toward whatever the deck is trying to do (Storm out or Reanimate). Attempting to combine the two only means you are detracting from the overall goal of the other. A specific example of this is that you are running three reanimate targets in the maindeck. However, these cards all have such a high mana cost that it makes flipping with Ad Nauseam simply terrible. Theoretically, you could cast them if you generated enough mana and had a Lion's Eye Diamond (for the white creatures), but that seems underwhelming and inefficient relative to dedicating the deck to one strategy or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
The problem reanimate strategies had to overcome was the with the lack of Mystical Tutor, the deck had to slightly increase the creature count because it meant you had to rely on Careful Study instead of eight virtual copies of Entomb. If you're really set on this strategy, I would suggest something like this:
Land (15)
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
Mana Acceleration (16)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
Disruption (7)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
Tutors (6)
4x Infernal Tutor
2x Entomb
Engine (2)
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
Win Condition (1)
1x Tendrils of Agony
Cantrips (13)
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
4x Ponder
1x Preordain
Sideboard
x2 Entomb
x4 Reanimate
x4 Exhume
5 Creatures
The maindeck puts a heavier emphasis on the Storm portion of the deck. Careful Study can function fine as a cantrip. The fact that it draws you two cards can actually be powerful. Entomb, at worst, can be a one B spell that puts two cards to your graveyard to allow the deck to reach Threshold faster to enable Cabal Ritual. At its best, Entomb can be used to create some interesting interactions with Ill-Gotten Gains. There are five slots in the sideboard which are to be used for the reanimate creature package. Sideboard would look something like this:
In
2 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
5 Creatures
Out
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Preordain
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Others
The Storm engine comes out (3). The extra Preordain (1) isn't necessary since post board you have eight reanimate spells and twelve ways to put creatures into the graveyard along with twelve cantrips (as opposed to only 4 Infernal Tutor). Cabal Ritual (4) is too slow at two mana since you can just put a creature into the yard turn one and reanimate turn two. Lotus Petal (4), while potentially enabling some fast draws, is way to much of a dead draw in most situations. The last three slots are somewhat in contention between Dark Ritual and Lion's Eye Diamond. Ritual allows turn on Reanimates and can also help to pay for taxing counters. Lion'sy Eye Diamond functions as another discard outlet (albeit requiring some work) and can also allow you to use a Hellbent Infernal Tutor to dig for a Reanimate spell. I would suggest -1 Lion's Eye Diamond and -2 Cabal Ritual.
What lead you the Grip, Thoughtseize, Bob conclusion relative to the other options such as more Ad Nauseam/Tendrils or Doomsday out of the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by honestabe
Preparing for Countertop, a Guide for Being Evil
You can expect this disruption package from CounterTop decks:
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Vendillion Clique
Which they find using:
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Brainstorm
Additionally, you can expect the following out of the board:
2 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
The curve will generally feature:
22 lands (zero drops)
12+ one drops
10+ two drops
5+ three drops
2-4 four drops
4-6 five drops
Some builds may be packing more.
Their primary offense will be either Tarmogoyf or Stoneforge Mystic.
I think this is my first double-post ever.
You sir, need to compile a small article and give us some pointers! I am going into ANT for the next season of Legacy and I could use some friendly suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by honestabe
Is there a general consensus on what a counterbalance lists will look like now? From what I can remember, the dominate archetypes prior to its decline where NO Bant & UW/UWr/UWb Thopter Sword. I found the article the Hatfields wrote on the metagame trends prior to the printing of Mental Misstep. It would seem that Counterbalance had been trending down in the prior months. If the metagame reverts back to where it was in May, it is possible that counterbalance will be a poor choice.
I believe the presences of Junk/Zoo decks (especially with Green Sun's Zenith) and Merfolk decks will help to curb the potentially resurgence of counterbalance decks. Another outlier deck in Goblins may also see a resurgence which would contribute to the curbing of this resurgence as well. While I think the banning of Mental Misstep has help counterbalance decks. However, I do not necessarily think they can overcome some of the other decks in the format. I think we'll see traditional control players either moving toward counterbalance or Stoneblade decks; what they decide will likely be determined by which of those decks posts better win percentages against Mefolk, Junk, Zoo and Bant/RUG decks. I believe Stoneblade may still be a better choice against the field. While the combo match up is important, combo also represents a small percentage of the metagame. This means the match up percentages against the aforementioned will likely be the determining factor. The X-Factor for Stoneblade will be how much Mental Misstep actually contributed to the Zoo/Junk/Merfolk/RUG(Bant) match ups.
As long as they don't contain Stifle/Wasteland (like Dreadstill), we can always go back to Doomsday/Emrakul transformational sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
With regard to how the lists will look like, I think they'll go in three directions: Tom Martell style Four Colour Counterbalance, Barnello style Uw Stonforge Thopter and ProBant. The first two will probably attract former StoneBlade/NO RUG players, given that the meta indeed will become favourable for CounterTop decks
Do you think Landstill will have a lower win percentage than Counterbalance even with Green Sun's Zenith in the format? I think that card is the answer to Counterbalance in the way Engineered Explosives used to be used to be. The fact that it negates the traditional late game advantage that Counterbalance has means these decks now can play on a more even playing field. Why do you think Counterbalance will be favorable in the upcoming metagame?Quote:
Originally Posted by NesretepNoj
Did I write that? If so, I must have expressed myself poorly. No, I actually don't think Counterbalance will come back. As you mention, GSZ is a beating. The same goes for Stoneforge Mystic, which can come down, before Counterbalance becomes relevant. The deck will also have a hard time beating Hive Mind, if it survives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
My primary point was, that IF counterbalance becomes viable, DD/Emrakul is a really good answer. Hence, no fear from my point of view.
I used to play CB/Top before MT got banned... I never lost a match to ANT. I did lose to Charbelcher before though. Never played DD, SI, or other storm decks. Frankly I feel combo has to prove itself before CB comes back. Until then, I wouldn't worry about it. I'd worry more about ppl replacing their Missteps with Spell Pierces or Spell Snares or Daze.
Question: I haven't played since MT got banned... Do ppl still play City of Traitors in this deck? What about Lim Dul's Vault?
I'll agree on the first point. Regarding your question, you've got some 150 pages of reading to do and various archetypes to check out. ANT is a new brew and there are various forms of it that play various threats and beats. LDV is still run in some lists that people have been discussing over on the stormboards but I've always preferred either burning wish or infernal tutor. City of traitors has been cut almost across the boards for either more fetches, basics, or duals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar
after everyone's helpful advice this is what I have come up with.
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lion’s eye diamond
2 chrome mox
2 mox diamond
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 gitaxian probe or should this be preordain?
4 duress
3 thought sieze
4 infernal tutor
1 ill gotten gains
1 ad neausium
1 tendrils of agony
2 misty rainforest
2 verderant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 underground sea
2 island
3 swamp
Ok now for some other questions. Should I still run the mox diamond in the deck? WOuld it be able to produce mana of off a fetchland? Should I run gitaxian probe of preordain, seeing as all of my disruption lets me look and choose, why should I look agian? Also, did I fix the land part of the mana base?
@Thatoneguy - It seems like a pretty straight forward UB Ant list. I would, without a doubt cut the 2 mox diamonds for 2 more land, simple as that. 14 land is real sketchy to run with mox diamonds. I understand there is always the possibility to float no mana into an Ad Naus and hope to flip the diamond but... I'd rather just have a land. You're going to find yourself with weird openers like land, diamond, spell, spell, spell etc. and it will be a weird play indeed.
In regards to probe vs. preordain I've always been on the preordain side of the argument but I'm sure people will disagree. Probe does give you the peek that no one will counter. It sometimes just lets you sit back, cast it, and realize that you can win. Preordain on the other hand can shuffle chaff away, can provide you with an extra turn of virtual card advantage, and give you the answer you need now.
Its really up to play-style in the end. Give em both and try and tell us what you think but, before that, I'd cut the diamonds.
The lands look fine but especially realize that if you cut the probes, you need more land (I'm still not sure how people are topping weird events with 14 land lists). The second u-sea would be helpful but really isn't all that necessary. Sometimes I'll draw opponents into wasting me over and over to keep them off of say, Jace mana but I run a Chain of Vapor MD to deal with problems like that .
That's my 2 cents. Hope you enjoy the deck.
So at the Star City Open today, an ANT deck that splashed red for Past in Flames got tenth place. I'm kind of wondering how often the player actually won games with the card.
The deck list looks interesting. It can push into four colors if need be via the Tropical Island in the sideboard. What struck me as interesting is Past in Flames was a maindeck card and the list did not run Burning Wish. I think once you're getting into the four color range, the mana base gets too unstable I would rather just play TES since its faster. Its also interesting to note that ANT (UB) made the top eight along with a TES variant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Namida
In the short term, the three storm decks (TES, ANT, and UBrg), two reanimator decks and the belcher deck have demonstrated that combo is back in good form. I would expect control and aggro decks to sideboard accordingly with increased levels of graveyard hate (somewhat relevant to this deck) and dedicated storm hate slots. Most of the players in Legacy tend to go overboard when a deck like Reanimator, Dredge or Storm wins a SCG event and they overload on sideboard cards to beat decks that are "unfair". This means if you are planning on playing ANT or some variant in Nashville or Baltimore, I would test against versions of decks with more dedicated disruption. My guess is Junk, Team America, and possibly Counterbalance will become more popular choices among control players given that prior to the printing of Mental Misstep, they posted the best win percentages against combo decks. Also, if your gauntlet Merfolk deck does not already include Flusterstorm, it should. Caleb Durward suggested it in an article a while back and the recent Top 8 list of Merfolk included it as well (so expect others to copy).
I like that list a lot, aside from the bounce-free sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Namida
New thing to try:
SB Empty the Warrens + a Volc. Solves some of the CB and Team America issues. Someone ended up running this on my advice and they smashed AJ in the swiss with it.
Practical Jokes old 2x Ad Naus list with Chrome Moxes. Added speed is very good vs. Reanimator and the move towards Snapcaster Tempo and combo instead of Fish and Zoo means your life total is higher for longer. Also, Ad Naus fucks up Stifles.
how's the confidant working in SB at this moment? still feels like a really awkward sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
Also with GP amsterdam coming up, I should start preparing myself (kinda been slacking off big time)
the etw don't always solve the TA match-ups, but do a proper job against the current CB lists.
You know what solves tempo problems (TA, Can Thresh, New Delver Thresh, Etc) AND CB problems?
Doomsday.
Practical, would you please repost the list Ari is referencing...
Also I agree with Practical that the SB is awkward, although I am unsure if the doomsday plan is really any better, perhaps more IGG and surgical extraction could be effective?
You know what is a lot more complicated than Ad Nauseam? Picking the 5 best cards for the current situation. It's doubtful that there are people who have significantly more experience than I do with Doomsday, but I'll be the first one to tell you that whatever skill level you think you are, you're a couple hundred hours off what it takes to play Doomsday at a high level. Comparatively, Ad Nauseam will get you 90% of the common Doomsday wins and a good percentage more that most Doomsday piles don't win because the deck itself itself is a very general 2 card combo instead of a 1 card combo. Combine that with not getting as many early wins because you don't see the double cantrip piles as well as an experienced player and you'll find that a good player who is normally X-2 or better drops to X-3 or X-4 because they lose a close game or two that winning comes from experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
I am by no means either doubting your ability to play Doomsday or trying to make myself seem like a competent Doomsday player. I've yet to bring the deck to a large and/or long event (one of the downsides of being a grad school student), and would say that over the last two or so years of playing it, I've still found myself losing more games than I would have just playing good ole' UB ANT. And yes, that reason is because of Ad Nauseum.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
However, I don't think that the fact that I'm not playing the deck even close to 100% competency changes at all what I've said; Doomsday.
I think the issue here is that you're advising that everyone playing ANT right now just drop what they're doing and spend two years learning how to play a different deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
Oh well no, it was intended to be a bit more of hyperbole.. However, even I recall a time when 4 DD in the board + and Emrakul and a SI was a great way to deal with CB - not so much thresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Namida
Are you going to be writing a tournament report?Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
I was the guy playing the deck, Past in flames was absolutely insane all day long for me. I don't remember exactly how many games I won by casting it, I know that one particularly memorable game against high tide was more or less locked up by casting it to flash back 3 Duress effects. One thing to note was the number of people who brought in graveyard hate against me, presumably because they didn't have storm hate. It's probably still worth keeping in against hate, but it's something that would need to be looked at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Namida
Yeah, my sideboard was terrible and probably caused my first loss, playing against reanimator and having no outs to Iona on black. I think that cutting the grim lavamancers is the first step, since without them you can definitely cut the maindeck mountain and possibly the badlands. My sideboard now looks likeQuote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Wipe Away
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
3 Firespout
1 Empty the Warrens
and my maindeck is -1 Mountain -2 Scalding Tarn +2 Bloodstained Mire +1 Swamp
lol no they don't. Stoneblade-CBT decks aren't bothered by ETW tokens at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by practical joke