Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I've seen many lists running Wear // Tear in the sideboard; however, I'm having some trouble understanding exactly why this card would be preferable to oblivion ring. First off, based on what's currently being played I think that you will almost never get a 2-for-1 with wear//tear (except for against Imperial Painter), so I think it's safe to ignore this aspect of wear//tear for the most part. Now, oblivion ring can be used against anything wear//tear can be used against, so we'd want oblivion ring whenever we'd want wear//tear as well.
If somebody could help me understand why wear//tear would be preferable to Oblivion Ring currently, I would much appreciate it.

EDIT: Pretty sure creature heavy lists should have 4 Baleful Strix :P

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This is a misunderstanding. You're comparing apple and orange here.

Wear//Tear is great because its interaction with CB. When you float Wear//Tear, you can reveal to counter cmc 1 or 2 via CB.

O-Ring is used really for Show and Tell deck. As long as you have Top in play, you can always hold Enlightened Tutor in hand, wait until your opponent Show and Tell, tutor for the O-Ring and draw it via Top. I don't recommend this as a game plan, but it can be your saving grace, when you cannot find counter magic. In all the other match-ups, it'll just hit something like Jace or Grindstone or an equipment, then eventually get Decayed or painter-Blasted. O-Ring is really a bullet for tutoring. If you don't run tutor, you might as well run 1 more Clique for that slot.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

EDIT: Afaik floating Wear//Tear won't counter 1 or 2 cmc cards, but rather 3cmc. You pick the card half you are playing, or you fuze, but if it's not on the stack, it's cmc is in fact 3.

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From Gatherer: 4/15/2013 In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. If anything needs information about a split card not on the stack, it will get two values.

It counters 1s and 2s with counterbalance

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Originally Posted by Aetherick

From Gatherer: 4/15/2013 In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. If anything needs information about a split card not on the stack, it will get two values.

It counters 1s and 2s with counterbalance

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Isn't it actually that you need to choose which side you are using when revealing for CB? For high REL or if you get Mindslaver'ed, I think you can still screw it up if you aren't careful.

EDIT: I was wrong, you do not choose. CB compares the CMC of the card, you do not choose.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

First off, based on what's currently being played I think that you will almost never get a 2-for-1 with wear//tear (except for against Imperial Painter), so I think it's safe to ignore this aspect of wear//tear for the most part.

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Seeing Wear // Tear played against Painter is actually one of the reasons I decided to pick it up. I had previously been dismissive of the Mono-Red Painter MU since I've had a lot of experience against UR Painter in the past and found it to be very easy. Mono-Red is unfortunately a different beast and running 8 REBs throughout the 75 really becomes an issue, especially if they get Painter online.

I can see the case for running ORing over Wear // Tear if you are running Enlightned Tutors because being able to tutor a 3cmc for Counterbalance is really nice. If you aren't running Enlightened Tutor or if you are running Snapcaster Mage then I think the upsides of Wear // Tear are too good to ignore. Like other people have said, Wear // Tear does counter 1s and 2s off Counterbalance. It is never 3cmc except on the stack for its Fuse cost.

Sort of on the same subject... what if anything do people expect to cut in order to fit in Unexpectedly Absent? Wear // Tear and ORing or possible extra sweepers look to be the best slots to cut, but what does everyone think about it? I like the card a lot, but I'm not entirely convinced yet that it is actually better than anything we already have.

Someone gives you the Gatherer rule and you still contend it.

Okay that's fine.

Wear // Tear will counter 1s and 2s with Counterbalance. There's no choice and no way to get it wrong.

One thing to think about with Unexpectedly Absent is how much of an improvement is this over Vanishment in this deck?

Vanishment can easily be :u:: Put target nonland permanent on top of its owner's library at potentially instant speed. It can also be chucked to Force of Will. Absent can be cast anytime for :w::w:, but hitting miracle cost consistency is what our deck does best.

Absent should be tested, but I am thinking it has its limitation in this deck (though playing Absent in response to a shuffle might just be too good.)

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Sort of on the same subject... what if anything do people expect to cut in order to fit in Unexpectedly Absent? Wear // Tear and ORing or possible extra sweepers look to be the best slots to cut, but what does everyone think about it? I like the card a lot, but I'm not entirely convinced yet that it is actually better than anything we already have.

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I am cautiously optimistic about Unexpectedly Absent in our deck. I can see taking out the a main deck ORing for Unexpectedly Absent, and maybe putting another in the sideboard somewhere (in Wear/Tear's place probably). I feel like the Miracles builds utilizing a tutor package might be better off just sticking with the Oring though, as it is easy to find permanent removal (though Oring is lame against the BGx decks..). In my limited playtesting with Unexpectedly Absent the situation has arose a couple times where my opponent has a juicy target (a Liliana for example) and I am sitting on the Unexpectedly Absent in my hand just waiting for them to fetch, or waiting until I can stick a Jace and fate seal, only to have my opponent play a Thoughtseize and take my Unexpectedly Absent. It's a pain, especially considering that I have to leave open WW mana for the moment the shuffle effect occurs. Oring has an advantage in this situation as you can just drop it and take the Liliana immediately.

Of course there are other situations that do not require us to wait on a shuffle effect with our Unexpectedly Absent, like if we have a way to counter the bounced spell when our opponent replays it. Still, I think playing Unexpectedly Absent has enough contingent factors that it's effectiveness is uncertain.. I'm still very open to the card though, it is exactly the effect Miracles needs.

Testing Unexpectedly Absent is worth the shot maybe because it's an additional 2cc, but the hesitation is if it will replace a 3cc, and a utility card at that, and also the WW minimum price tag for a delay impact. Not too sold on it, but even if I have a slot to free up - adding a Ponder, or an Entreat, immediately comes to mind before this.

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Originally Posted by blacknapkins

I am cautiously optimistic about Unexpectedly Absent in our deck. I can see taking out the a main deck ORing for Unexpectedly Absent, and maybe putting another in the sideboard somewhere (in Wear/Tear's place probably). I feel like the Miracles builds utilizing a tutor package might be better off just sticking with the Oring though, as it is easy to find permanent removal (though Oring is lame against the BGx decks..). In my limited playtesting with Unexpectedly Absent the situation has arose a couple times where my opponent has a juicy target (a Liliana for example) and I am sitting on the Unexpectedly Absent in my hand just waiting for them to fetch, or waiting until I can stick a Jace and fate seal, only to have my opponent play a Thoughtseize and take my Unexpectedly Absent. It's a pain, especially considering that I have to leave open WW mana for the moment the shuffle effect occurs. Oring has an advantage in this situation as you can just drop it and take the Liliana immediately.

Of course there are other situations that do not require us to wait on a shuffle effect with our Unexpectedly Absent, like if we have a way to counter the bounced spell when our opponent replays it. Still, I think playing Unexpectedly Absent has enough contingent factors that it's effectiveness is uncertain.. I'm still very open to the card though, it is exactly the effect Miracles needs.

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Yes there is a reason why we play counterspell over memory lapse in this deck. Control decks need permanent answers to trouble things like library or liliana. Conditional answers that are dependant on opponents fetching is sketchy.

Another issue I have is the ww. If it was uw or w1 it would be much more manageable. I will come out and say it contrary to what it looks like, unexpectedly absent is not a tempo card. This is because if you test it, it is really hard to cast in a deck that wants to fetch basics the first few turns. The usual miracle plays would usually involve basic islands and plain off fetches the first few turns to dodge wasteland. This deck needs uu asap and the first 3 lands would usually be 2 islands and 1 plains. To use unexpectedly absent as a tempo card in the first few turns AND cast counterbalance reliably, we need to fetch tundras in the first few turns, which negates the deck's mana stability.

Double white is not an issue for entreat and elspeth because these are late game bombs. By the time we reach 4-5 lands, double white should not be an issue. The same applies to unexpectedly absent since it's double white. Assuming we follow the standard, safe mana development, we won't be casting unexpectedly absent in the first 3-4 turns. I would much rather have Venser or Detention sphere in the same slot Imo.

And that is rediculously awesome. So awesome.

Also, against most Decay lists I leave my Counterbalances in. I don't see why I would take them out.

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Also, against most Decay lists I leave my Counterbalances in. I don't see why I would take them out.

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I agree. It's only one card and by leaving counterbalance in, you make their decision of what to decay just that much harder.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Also, against most Decay lists I leave my Counterbalances in. I don't see why I would take them out.

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It's not that I think Counterbalance is bad against Abrupt Decay decks.... on the contrary, it is always 1-for-1 or better. I leave them in against Jund and they work fine. However, my SBing plan against BUG is basically the same as my plan for Jund except that now I need to make room for REBs. The Counterbalance are probably the weakest of what I have left.

When they play Abrupt Decay on CB, CB essentially reads: "UU: Counter Abrupt Decay. Sacrifice CB."

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

When they play Abrupt Decay on CB, CB essentially reads: "UU: Counter Abrupt Decay. Sacrifice CB."

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Haha. It's not the worst to blind reveal off the CB even if you can't stop the Abrupt Decay. Having a fetch or some other form of library manipulation can make small advantages like that pretty useful.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

It's not that I think Counterbalance is bad against Abrupt Decay decks.... on the contrary, it is always 1-for-1 or better. I leave them in against Jund and they work fine. However, my SBing plan against BUG is basically the same as my plan for Jund except that now I need to make room for REBs. The Counterbalance are probably the weakest of what I have left.

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Right, it's not that CB is bad, just that my sideboard cards are better. Shardless and Jund are much more of creature decks than anything, so just having more removal is often better than having counterbalance.

So totally unrelated, I thought I'd put down a few misplays and lessons from a small tournament last night. These are mostly for my benefit, but hopefully sharing will help others as well.

Don't underestimate Goblin's ability to get you for the last few points of damage.

I was setting up an Entreat and I had a really sick Pyroclasm in the works. I could have Pyroclasm'd a turn earlier but decided to go down to 1 life to preserve max value. I go down to 1 and on my turn wipe his board. Next turn he plays Lacky and I Entreat for 2 EoT. I have a Venser in hand, so I can block the Lacky and bounce whatever he draws for the turn. I swing with both Angels. Unfortunately, he drew Matron which allowed him to find the third body needed for a win. I was greedy on all accounts: on waiting to Pyroclasm, on Entreating when he wasn't attacking so I couldn't block for value, and on assuming he couldn't play two hasty Goblins in a turn.

Don't Spell Pierce High Tide's cantrips.

Even if they have a fetchland in play and are Brainstorming and it looks so good, your hand is stacked and you just want all the value... don't do it. Spell Pierce is just so much more valuable to counter a High Tide. Even if they can pay it, you are effectively robbing them of 4 mana to do so. They need High Tide to win, not Brainstorm.

Read the fucking cards for the love of all things holy.

Originally, this misplay was going to be about paying attention to combat tricks.... but no, I just need to read cards and not let them cheat. I'm playing against Death and Taxes. I'm at 10 life. They are dead to my return swing of Angels. They have a Thalia equipped with a Jitte (with three counters), a Mother of Runes, and one turn to kill me before dying. I do some math and figure there's no possible way to die. They swing with both. First Strike combat happens, I drop to 8 and Jitte gets two more counters. Before normal combat happens, they remove all the Jitte counters and pump Mother of Runes to deal me lethal. I stare at the board blankly for a while before moving to g2. Now, if I were a smart fellow, I would have read Jitte, "Equipped creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn..." Unfortunately, I had to work for my win over the next two games.

Wear//Tear vs Oring is debatable. Personally I run a split as both have merits. I'd like to discuss Detention Sphere vs Oring. Oring is obviously better against Reb decks and Jace mirrors but I'm still preferring Dsphere.

I feel that being blue and pitching to force in a bind is remarkably useful. Also being able to sometimes multiple for 1 is great. It's really good for sweeping empty the warrens tokens or pitching to force against Ant. I'm personally running Spheres instead of Rings.

I usually try to remind people (especially playing certain decks) that the MU has a tendency to get grindy, so we might want to speed things up a bit... but yeah, sometimes players just play horribly slow no matter how you prod them. I suppose you could say something like "Hey, want to move on to game 2? I feel like I have this one pretty much locked down." Sometimes they might ask to see the FoW or something before scooping, but I wouldn't just drop "all these" right off the bat. That could definitely come across as dick.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I usually try to remind people (especially playing certain decks) that the MU has a tendency to get grindy, so we might want to speed things up a bit... but yeah, sometimes players just play horribly slow no matter how you prod them. I suppose you could say something like "Hey, want to move on to game 2? I feel like I have this one pretty much locked down." Sometimes they might ask to see the FoW or something before scooping, but I wouldn't just drop "all these" right off the bat. That could definitely come across as dick.

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Great suggestion Dzra. I'm going to SCG LA in November and will probably be playing a 3 CB list, so it'll be good to know how I can tell my opponent nicely that they're not going to go anywhere by trying to play it out.

Then again, some people are just dicks and want to punish for playing a durdly deck you by forcing a draw by going to time.

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Originally Posted by Kyle

Great suggestion Dzra. I'm going to SCG LA in November and will probably be playing a 3 CB list, so it'll be good to know how I can tell my opponent nicely that they're not going to go anywhere by trying to play it out.

Then again, some people are just dicks and want to punish for playing a durdly deck you by forcing a draw by going to time.

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Excuse me? Why should I scoop to pilots that don't even bother to play some winconditions in their deck? You can bet, I stall into a 1-0-0 win or a draw if my Miracles opponent just runs 3 Jaces and a celestial colonade (wasted) as wincons (I had the "honor" once to play auch a build) and expect me to scoop just because they completely misbuild their deck...

I tweaked the deck some, and took it to the local yesterday. Here's the list and what happened!

Lands (23)
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas

Creatures (2)
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (35)
Control
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Advantage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict

Tutor Package
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience

Win Conditions
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels

Sideboard
1 Blood Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wear // Tear
1 Path to Exile
1 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Counterbalance
3 Red Elemental Blast

I took the advice of some of the people here for this list, and moved another Entreat the Angels to the main deck, dropped Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, and the main deck Blood Moon.

Round 1 - Shardless Bant - Lost 1/2
Game 1: I kept a reasonable hand with only 1 piece of removal. I nuked his first dude, and he then played a Stoneforge Mystic into a Batterskull. No amount of topping or brainstorming could find me an answer... So I got skulled to death.

Game 2: Out: 4 Force of Will In: 2 Wear // Tear, Supreme Verdict, Path to Exile. My opening hand was 2 Swords to Plowshares, Supreme Verdict, 4 lands. The swords kept me alive to get Counter/Top active, and the Verdict sealed the deal after countering 2 Ancestral Vision. I killed him with Entreat the Angels.

Game 3: A very similar game to game 2, except we ended up going to time. I lost in the last turn with lethal angels unable to block a Stoneforge Mystic with a Sword of Light and Shadow. :(

Round 2 - Affinity - Won 2/1
Game 1: I knew he was on Affinity, so I kept a removal heavy hand. He got a fast start, but I was able to keep him off of Cranial Plating long enough to resolve a big Entreat the Angels. I swung lethal in one turn.

Game 2: Out: 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Misdirection, Rest in Peace In: Supreme Verdict, Path to Exile, 2 Wear // Tear, Detention Sphere. Again, removal heavy, but he ended up with two Cranial Platings out and just needed a creature. I was stuck digging for a way to kill him before he could draw a creature. He got there with a Stoneforge Mystic swinging in for 18 damage!

Game 3: I got counter/top active early, and floated Entreat the Angels and Wear // Tear on top of the deck until I had enough to cast a the Entreat for lethal. He just didn't get to resolve anything that game.

Round 3 - Deathblade - Won 2/0
Game 1: Very long game. I had a million removal spells, and all he played were creatures for a long time - so we were playing land/go for a while. I landed a Rest in Peace relatively early on, but didn't find an Enlightened Tutor till much later. I attempted to assemble the Helm combo, but he Abrupt Decayed the RIP in response, and I got a Snapcaster Mage off the top of his deck. The game finally ended when I resolved a lethal Entreat the Angels

Game 2: Out: 2 Force of Will, Misdirection, Terminus In: Wear // Tear, Blood Moon, Detention Sphere, Enlightened Tutor. Another long game! We both resolved a Jace, and mine got pinged with his Vendilion Clique before I got what I needed. My Jace was at 1, and the only card I had in hand was Enlightened Tutor. I tutored Blood Moon with no red sources, and prayed on a Jace brainstorm. I found an Arid Mesa, bounced his Clique with Karakas, then played Blood Moon. This left him with only a single plains. For the next few turns, we each fatesealed ourselves (he was ahead on the race to ultimate). Finally, the turn before he could ultimate me I topped into an Entreat the Angels. He ultimates his Jace, I respond by drawing with top and making 5 angels. The one card in my hand becomes my deck. To add insult to injury, the angles were exacies for his life total!

Round 4 I got a bye.... stupid small tournaments and people dropping!

So far I am pretty happy with how the deck is performing. It seems to have OK match-ups with a good variety of decks, and good match-ups on the decks that are coming in to beat up on Shardless BUG. I'm curious what everyone thinks the hand match-ups are, since my sideboard still feels iffy. I'd like to get it more focused on the important bad match-ups.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Excuse me? Why should I scoop to pilots that don't even bother to play some winconditions in their deck? You can bet, I stall into a 1-0-0 win or a draw if my Miracles opponent just runs 3 Jaces and a celestial colonade (wasted) as wincons (I had the "honor" once to play auch a build) and expect me to scoop just because they completely misbuild their deck...

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I think that's a pretty extreme comment, as that's a very fringe example. Nothing to back this up except what I read regularly, but I don't think that's the majority of Miracles decks by a long shot and if you do run into a jackass that built their deck that way I'm glad you're smart enough to flip 'em the bird.

Also, there was supposed to be a little humor in my post, as the conversation was describing how to politely tell an opponent that they're not going to be able to do anything. No, it's not always going to work as it's very situational, for example: if your G1 looks like it's going to go to time and there's nothing you can do that's when you, as the opponent, want to draw it out against a durdly Miracles player who needs to keep digging to find answers as to lock in a draw for the match. Not to mention what the actual lock is. If I have Jace out, a Blood Moon, and a CounterTop lock, that's probably a good time for you to scoop if you think you can get on to G2 with some time left. There are some people who will draw it out hoping for the Hail Mary topdeck. That's just plain dumb.

An example of where you (as the opponent) want to draw it out? Say you win G1, your Miracles opponents gets a good lock going quickly and there's still 20 or more minutes on the clock then it's a really good idea to move on to G3 as soon as possible, be back on the play, and hopefully have some time to get another win in.

I'm also a player who quickly recognizes when I'm losing and there's nothing I can possibly do to come back when my opponent has a ridiculous board presence or lock to prevent me from getting anything done. Yes, I have had people ask me: why are you conceding? My answer is always: "I can't raise the dead."

For reference, I play 2 Entreat the Angels, 3 Jace, and 1 Helm as my MD wincons, and am testing 2 Baneslayer Angels in the side as some additional help. I've been happy and don't regularly go to time.

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Originally Posted by Pherion

Round 1 - Shardless Bant - Lost 1/2
Game 1: I kept a reasonable hand with only 1 piece of removal. I nuked his first dude, and he then played a Stoneforge Mystic into a Batterskull. No amount of topping or brainstorming could find me an answer... So I got skulled to death.

Game 2: Out: 4 Force of Will In: 2 Wear // Tear, Supreme Verdict, Path to Exile. My opening hand was 2 Swords to Plowshares, Supreme Verdict, 4 lands. The swords kept me alive to get Counter/Top active, and the Verdict sealed the deal after countering 2 Ancestral Vision. I killed him with Entreat the Angels.

Game 3: A very similar game to game 2, except we ended up going to time. I lost in the last turn with lethal angels unable to block a Stoneforge Mystic with a Sword of Light and Shadow. :(

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ha ha~~! Shardless Bant, people including me are still trying to make it work. I'm proud of this guy's effort. However, SoLS, WTF. Come on, should be either SoFF or SoFI.

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Originally Posted by Pherion

So far I am pretty happy with how the deck is performing. It seems to have OK match-ups with a good variety of decks, and good match-ups on the decks that are coming in to beat up on Shardless BUG. I'm curious what everyone thinks the hand match-ups are, since my sideboard still feels iffy. I'd like to get it more focused on the important bad match-ups.

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Congrats on the finish. Weird luck hitting Shardless Bant. I don't think they are terribly good against us, but the SoLS sounded pretty rough. I still think our toughest MU's are Goblins and Shardless BUG, in that order. 12-Post is bad for us I suppose, but few people play it.

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Originally Posted by Kyle

There are some people who will draw it out hoping for the Hail Mary topdeck. That's just plain dumb.

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Yeah I agree. It's one thing for them to be playing for a 1-0-1 victory, that's something different. It's a common mistake that newer players make to try to crawl out of very disadvantaged board states. Like for example, there are a lot of times when I'll have someone under CBTop lock and have a Jace on the field ticking up and they still think they can get out of it. That's fine if they want to do that, it'll just mean I have to play twice as fast for the both of us. More experienced players will usually know when they need to concede because draws early in a tournament are really quite bad for both players. More experienced players will also usually be more willing to concede if they hit time and their opponent has clear control of the game (although there are cases when taking the draw is fine).

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Originally Posted by Kyle

I think that's a pretty extreme comment, as that's a very fringe example. Nothing to back this up except what I read regularly, but I don't think that's the majority of Miracles decks by a long shot and if you do run into a jackass that built their deck that way I'm glad you're smart enough to flip 'em the bird.

Also, there was supposed to be a little humor in my post, as the conversation was describing how to politely tell an opponent that they're not going to be able to do anything. No, it's not always going to work as it's very situational, for example: if your G1 looks like it's going to go to time and there's nothing you can do that's when you, as the opponent, want to draw it out against a durdly Miracles player who needs to keep digging to find answers as to lock in a draw for the match. Not to mention what the actual lock is. If I have Jace out, a Blood Moon, and a CounterTop lock, that's probably a good time for you to scoop if you think you can get on to G2 with some time left. There are some people who will draw it out hoping for the Hail Mary topdeck. That's just plain dumb.

An example of where you (as the opponent) want to draw it out? Say you win G1, your Miracles opponents gets a good lock going quickly and there's still 20 or more minutes on the clock then it's a really good idea to move on to G3 as soon as possible, be back on the play, and hopefully have some time to get another win in.

I'm also a player who quickly recognizes when I'm losing and there's nothing I can possibly do to come back when my opponent has a ridiculous board presence or lock to prevent me from getting anything done. Yes, I have had people ask me: why are you conceding? My answer is always: "I can't raise the dead."

For reference, I play 2 Entreat the Angels, 3 Jace, and 1 Helm as my MD wincons, and am testing 2 Baneslayer Angels in the side as some additional help. I've been happy and don't regularly go to time.

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To scoop or not is sure a thing of evaluating each players outs, but there's a spreading habit of scooping too early (and asking for peeps to do so) that resulted into players decreasing their actual threats like in MUD or Miracles just to have more disruption. I don't want to be Mike-Long'd and scoop to a player who can't even kill me anymore.


@Dzra: Happy B-Day!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

To scoop or not is sure a thing of evaluating each players outs, but there's a spreading habit of scooping too early (and asking for peeps to do so) that resulted into players decreasing their actual threats like in MUD or Miracles just to have more disruption. I don't want to be Mike-Long'd and scoop to a player who can't even kill me anymore.


@Dzra: Happy B-Day!

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So then you are one of those guys that complains when Miracles wins 1-0?

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

So then you are one of those guys that complains when Miracles wins 1-0?

Greetings

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I don't know that make you think like that. ?:/

If you are a game behind against Miracles it's their Freedom of choice to reduce their threats and "stall" into a 1-0 win. You're free to scoop in their softlock anytime you Wish and lose 0-2 instead.

I was talking about the opponent of the Miracles player being ahead in games and the Miracles-Pilot expecting them to scoop in a softlock after reducing their own threads postboard or even in their Mainboard for more answers, because they can't kill their opponent in time to turn the game around.

For me, it's pretty insulting if some peeps assemble Counterbalance + Top and seriously ask me "game 3?"

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't know that make you think like that. ?:/

If you are a game behind against Miracles it's their Freedom of choice to reduce their threats and "stall" into a 1-0 win. You're free to scoop in their softlock anytime you Wish and lose 0-2 instead.

I was talking about the opponent of the Miracles player being ahead in games and the Miracles-Pilot expecting them to scoop in a softlock after reducing their own threads postboard or even in their Mainboard for more answers, because they can't kill their opponent in time to turn the game around.

For me, it's pretty insulting if some peeps assemble Counterbalance + Top and seriously ask me "game 3?"

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I used to play a U/W control list with 1 win-con -> 1/0, barely enough time to start game 2, so to speak.
If I was soft/hard locking my opponent, I would wait until the very last moment to kill him, because it is the very strategy of the deck.

Scooping can get you there while the contrary, will likely not.

If you are a game ahead. Well it is just a simple question: Can I beat him in game 3 or can I stall enough game 2 to prevent him from winning?
I don't consider the draw as an option.

With your opponent having so few win-cons what are you afraid of for not going in game 3 ? Seriously....

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I used to play a U/W control list with 1 win-con -> 1/0, barely enough time to start game 2, so to speak.
If I was soft/hard locking my opponent, I would wait until the very last moment to kill him, because it is the very strategy of the deck.

Scooping can get you there while the contrary, will likely not.

If you are a game ahead. Well it is just a simple question: Can I beat him in game 3 or can I stall enough game 2 to prevent him from winning?
I don't consider the draw as an option.

With your opponent having so few win-cons what are you afraid of for not going in game 3 ? Seriously....

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I rather win 1-0 than possibly have to draw due to time limit with him (Miracles) stalling (after giving up my game 2 without need) or lose game 3

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

@Dzra: Happy B-Day!

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Thanks a lot!

I got 1st yesterday at a GPT for DC with this list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus


It was at Mythic Games Monthly 1250$+ event that happened to also be a GPT for DC. Only 22 people showed up. Less people than usual, I think many of them went to SCG Indy.

1-2 Chris Song - Sneak and Show

Chris had the nuts both games he won. Did not even need to cantrip to have sneak, fatty, protection lands+Petal. While I kept slower but strong hands.

2-0 Cole ??? - Junk

Wasn't running Teeg or mom. G1 he didn't abrupt decay clique in response to its trigger and I dropped karakas next turn. G2 I think Terminus, Blood Moon and Jace might have been the only cards I cast.

2-0 Kevin McKee (Arianrhod) - Grixis Snapcaster control Reanimator

Kevin had a interesting really deck. It was kind of a snapcaster control deck with maindecked repeals that also had a decent sized reanimation package. We have a 35min Game 1. It was Epic. Kevin got to exhume a Griselbrand and draw 7, have an elesh norn with 2 snapcasters and have a Platinum Emperion but I was still able to fight through with removal and angels. G2 I don't really remember, but I think I won with angels, or we might have had a draw. I cant remember. I do remember never seeing relics.

"2-1" Timur Babakol (Zirath) - GWRB Goodstuff

Timur Scooped me in because I got paired down and there was no way he could top 8. We did play it out though, and he actually crushed me.

ID With Henry Decker (hdeck) - Mono Red Sneak Attack

We are seeded 7 and 8 and no one below us was X-1 so the top 8 was locked in.

Top 8:

2-1 Phalen Reedy - Punishing Jund

G1 he wins by default when he wastes and Lilys enough plains so I cant entreat and discards/destroys all my Jaces and punishing grove would take care of any blue X/1s. G2/3 I dont really remember but they were not too close. Some really good blind CB flips and Blood Moon won both games though. His only enchantment/artifact in his 75 was choke but I brought in wear/tear and killed a choke with it after dropping a moon.

2-1 Doug McKay - Something that most closely resembles NLT

If you have ever played McKay before you know his lists are always homebrews. His list had Goose, goyf, delver, daze, fow, cantrips... But it also had pyromancer along with probe and land grant and 2 GSZ. Also to note, he had zero enchantment removal or REBs in his SB. I dont really remember the order of our games but I think I beat him G1 with CB and angels. G2 I thought I had the game locked up. Hes got 2 cards in hand and I drop Jace with CB out. I have top in hand but play around Daze, keeping it till next turn. He double bolts me. My bad. G3 I have an answer to all his threats and kill him with angels.

"2-1" Eli Kassis - UWR Tempo

Eli does not need the GP byes and I make the mistake of telling him that I need them pretty bad. He knows this matchup well and we both know I am favored, especially post board. But he makes it sound like he is favored and offers to restructure the prize pool in a way that I didn't think was fair, I refuse and he wont just split and give me the Byes. We play out game 1 which he takes. With top, multiple fetchlands, brainstorms and ponder I see 1 removal spell the whole game and it is StpS. I die to an overextended board of pyromancer, snapcaster, and delver, when I had CB/top out and couldn't find a terminus with like 4 shuffles. I still think I am favored for each individual game, but being down a game, now the odds are against me. Eli reoffers his original idea. I negotiate it a bit so 1st place only gets slightly less prize money than if 1st and 2nd split, and he accepts. So I got 275$ in store credit, 2 GP byes and an awesome trophy.


The deck performed very well I think I want a couple of Arid Mesa's though, having only 4 white fetches is awkward sometimes. Also I might want a BEB somewhere to help against the increase in Sneak and Show and Pyromancer decks lately. Another card that impressed me all day was Counterspell. I might just up the counterspell number. Having a CMC of 2 is relevant as well.

Relic over RIP I still think is right. Jund was the only matchup were I wanted RIP, everything else Relic was better. Also, the draw on relic was relevant for miracles a few times were I would have had to use top and then crack a fetch (shuffling top) in order to cast an entreat and protect it.

The Maindeck EE was always awesome. I obviously would have preferred Venser or D-sphere/O-ring in the S&T matchup but I still don't think that it is a bad matchup and that my loss was just an anomaly.

Staticaster I only brought in against NLT and Dark Mav and I never got to use it. But in theory I still like him. He helps the Mom/teeg problem and in my meta, pyromancer is seeing a ton of play and he wrecks that strategy. He's also awesome against Elves and Goblins.

EDIT: Also, I should mention. That was the first time I had played miracles outside of playtesting. In my magic past I have played UWx Decks alot, and Top decks ALOT though. I made a small amount of really obvious mistakes that I still won through, like drawing terminus too quickly to cast it against NLT. And the only really "big mistake" I think I made in retrospect was keeping a slower Jace, Top, Counterbalance hand against Sneak and Show. Also, I think I mulled 4 times the whole day. Having 4 BS, 4 tops and 2 ponders was awesome!

Congrats...

I watched many of his rounds as I ended up in 13th with imperial painter at this tournament. From an outside perspective, the plating removal and must answer like jace against jund was the perfect strategy to then windmill slam blood moon and that was game. That player had hard removal and the strategy was similar to baiting counterspells before blood moon buys you all the time in the world to set up an entreat or jace win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I got 1st yesterday at a GPT for DC with this list:

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I understand EE for being better in all the Vial deck match-ups, but without Tutor, it appears inconsistent to me.

Disagree on the Relic of RiP. Dredge? Activate Relic once won't win you the game. Reanimator? Activate Relic once would buy you some turns. When you want to hate graveyard, please do so throughly, people don't have access to White would have to resort to Relic, but why do that when you can produce W mana?

Does the lone Blood Moon without tutor do anything over the course of the tournament?



As to the Invitational this weekend, Oarsman did well for the Legacy portion, but did not top 8, kinda unfortunate for this mixed-format.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I understand EE for being better in all the Vial deck match-ups, but without Tutor, it appears inconsistent to me.

Disagree on the Relic of RiP. Dredge? Activate Relic once won't win you the game. Reanimator? Activate Relic once would buy you some turns. When you want to hate graveyard, please do so throughly, people don't have access to White would have to resort to Relic, but why do that when you can produce W mana?

Does the lone Blood Moon without tutor do anything over the course of the tournament?

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The deck has 13 library manipulation cards, 7 of which are reusable without snapcaster mage. I never have a hard time finding ones of's like verdict or EE in esperblade which had 4 tops and a ponder less library manipulation and I had even less of a hard time finding them in this list. EE isn't just good against Vial decks. Its good against everything besides like Sneak and Show and I think the matchup it is best in is RUG. Its does almost everything at the cost of being a later game card (usually). It answers lily as well, which is a serious problem as well as problem enchantments/artifacts like chalice or choke.

I disagree. RIP is generally better against dredge or reanimtor. But it is not strictly better even in those matchups. Against tempo decks Relic is usually way better (in the snapcaster list). You can keep them off threshhold and exile your countered artifacts/enchantments to shrink goyf. And the biggest plus is that it doesn't cost you a card. It also means your snapcasters are still nuts against tempo decks.

I had 2 bloodmoons. And if you read the report youd see that resolving blood moon alone outright won 3 of the 4 games I brought it in. The games I cast it my opponents never casted another spell. In the GBx goodstuff matchup it is easily the most powerful card you can play. You just answer their DRS, wait till they tap in a way that they cant cast abrupt decay and you then you untap slam bloodmoon and they cant cast a spell for the rest of the game usually. If I didn't have them I know I would have lost G2 and 3 to Jund and gotten 8th.

You don't need Etutor to play good artifacts and enchantments, even as 1 ofs.

EDIT: Also, I should have mentioned. That was the first time I had played miracles outside of playtesting.

I just took Einherjer's Miracles list for a spin at a GPT: DC and got 1st out of 39.

Here's a brief summary:

R1 - Goblins (2-0)

G1: Swords and Snapcaster shenanigans keep his army under control until I'm able to set up an Entreat for 2 on turn 4. They get through for lethal with me at 2.
G2: I keep a greedy hand with Karakas as my only land with 2 Tops. I obviously rip a fetchland and hit every land drop until turn 6, using Karakas to bounce his Thalia until I'm able to set up Supreme Verdict and Jace into an Entreat for 6.

R2 - Elves (2-0)

G1: I keep a hand with 3 Swords, a Snapcaster, and a Top. I obviously spin into a turn 2 Miracle, which I play to mess up his T2 Glimpse. It gets there easily.
G2: I'm able to Pyroclasm his board early and set up Counterbalance lock.

R3 - Jund (2-0)

G1: I deal with her early threats, and she gets absolutely flooded. I stick a Jace and fateseal her off Punishing Fire. A late Liliana is not enough to deal with the eventual ultimate.
G2: I clear T1 Deathrite and T2 Bob with a Pyroclasm and am able to ambush a Bloodbraid Elf with two Angels, which also deal with her Liliana.

R4 - Venser Miracles (2-0)

G1: We both stick Counterbalances, I'm able to get a Jace earlier. The turn before ultimate, I go from scrying to fatesealing to take him off Entreat. (I had one on top myself.)
G2: He lands Clique and Karakas, putting me on the defensive and forcing my Jace to fateseal. My Wear deals with his Counterbalance. He grabs a Detention Sphere to deal with my Jace, and lands his own Jace and Venser. I find Engineered Explosives off top, using that to blow up his Sphere, then using the Jace to bounce his Venser in order to kill his Jace with double Snapcaster. I manage to trade Vendilion Cliques and win the game easily from there.

R5 - Death and Taxes (2-0)

G1: Karakas bounces Thalia for a few turns while I eventually land a Jace and entreat for 6.
G2: His first turn Aether Vial is met with a turn 1 Explosives. He misses a land drop, and I manage to get a fistful of removal, including a fused Wear/Tear to deal with an Oblivion Ring (on Jace) and a Batterskull after he draws out of mana screw.

R6 - Reanimator (1-1 or 2-1)

G1: I tap out for a turn 3 Clique in response to Entomb. He shows me a grip of Daze and two Reanimates, making my Force awkward (this was probably a punt). I am unable to find a fourth land or a Karakas (having toplocked myself) before Jin forces me to discard Supreme Verdict.
G2: He has absolutely no pressure, taking a Jace with an early Thoughtseize. This works to my advantage as I'm able to eventually stick Rest in Peace and Counterbalance, with Snapcaster Mage being used as Ambush Viper.
G3: I keep enough early taxing counters before establishing Rest in Peace and Counterbalance, with Snapcaster Mage racing Hapless Researcher. He plays a late Wipe Away on Rest in Peace in an attempt to go off, but I'm able to Brainstorm in response to Exhume to hit with Counterbalance, drawing a Karakas. I offer a draw while way ahead since I was paired down as the only X-0 and prizes were paid out based on Swiss.

I dropped out of T8 contention because I'm not going to DC.

I'm a pretty fast player, so none of the matches came close to going to time, but it helps to end matches in two. There are fortunately just enough threats to make sure that this usually isn't a problem with reasonably fast play.

Congratz on your result! I feel honored about you playing my list, I assume you like it? :D

As soon as Nemesis is out and has made some impact I'll post my new list, though I'd love to see what you others are working on... I was thinking about switching Pyroclasms to Supreme Verdicts while upping the REB-Count... what have you been thinking of?

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Congratz on your result! I feel honored about you playing my list, I assume you like it? :D

As soon as Nemesis is out and has made some impact I'll post my new list, though I'd love to see what you others are working on... I was thinking about switching Pyroclasms to Supreme Verdicts while upping the REB-Count... what have you been thinking of?

Greetings

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I haven't really taken too much time modifying your list, but I have been happy with it everytime I tried it. I do recall you mentioned that you might want some more red sources, and I am inclined to agree, but I'm not sure exactly what changes are warranted. Pyroclasm has been excellent for me, but I'd also like to bring them in against the likes of UWR Delver, Jund, Goblins, Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, Maverick, etc., and all of them are capable of attacking your mana base.

I'm worried that when True Name Nemesis becomes a card, Pyroclasm will no longer be sufficient. It will probably see play in a variety of decks, but I'm most scared of its inclusion in Merfolk, if it's strong enough to give rise to that archetype again, as I consider Merfolk a terrible matchup for Miracles. In that case, I think we would need a few more Supreme Verdicts to further shore up that matchup. That comes at the cost of some liability against Gaddock Teeg decks, but those matchups tend to be slightly favorable anyway (and I personally prefer piloting Big Zoo most of the time, so I wouldn't mind that change!).

Yeah, Pyroclasm just won't cut it any more. My additional red source stems from Karakas, which reduced my outs to Teeg even more. I am not sure how much I like it but it might be necessary in any way. Another way is playing Mountain in the Sideboard, havn't done that in quite a while but it's still a possibility.

Greetings

I have been runing 1 moutain in the side and 1 Volcanic in the main for quite some time and it has been fantastic! You do not mess your main with too many non-basics and after side you have an indestructible red source. It is nice to have an extra land against tempo decks too.