Printable View
I played 4 Scullers between main and board over the last few months and never ran Vials.
I'm playing in a small tournament for Forces this weekend. If I don't find the remaining cards for my new Wizards list (3 Volcanics and a USea... ugh.), I'll probably be running Deadguy or Esper Deadguy. Any thoughts on which is the best sword now?
I'm not really sure where to post my list as basically I'm playing a blue splash deadguy. It's similar to this deck so I'll just post it here for discussion. Here's the list:
4 Bob
4 SFM
4 Snapcaster
4 Mom
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Stp
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymm to Tourach
2 Vindicate
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
9 Fetch
1 Swamp
Basically the blue splash is for brainstorm and snapcaster. Why play the 3rd colour? Brainstorm IMO is what stands between deadguy and other superior midrange decks. Brainstorm gives blue decks consistency and is a unique effect that deadguy cannot replicate (top really isn't that efficient). Ever draw too much discard and have them sitting dead in your hand when your opponent has nothing in hand but he is ahead in board position?
That's what brainstorm can help with, fixing mana screw/floods and shuffling back chaff. What I like about snapcaster is that he is ideal in this type of deck. In a blue core deck (force and dazes) snapcaster cannot reliably recast force/daze, so the number of snaps you can run is limited. Also snapcaster works best in a deck with equipment so he becomes a legitimate threat and not just a coral merfolk.
There are 14 1cc cards snapcaster can target in this deck and also 4 2cc ones in Hymm. For those who have experienced it, double hymm is absolutely crippling and Snapcaster really helps up discard/removal density. That's why I find him better than say Serra Avenger/Jotun Grunt/Tidehollow Sculler/Phyrexian revoker. These creatures are narrow, they are just good against either aggro or control/combo. Snapcaster is both excellent against aggro, control and combo while upping your creature count and potential equipment carriers.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanpei
YES.Quote:
Also snapcaster works best in a deck with equipment so he becomes a legitimate threat and not just a coral merfolk.
I've been testing a UBr Wizards deck with Snapcaster, a small faerie package (Sprites/Cliques), Bob and Lavamancer and the issue is that nothing is a threat without the 2 random equipment (Jitte/SOFAF).
I'm going to run this tonight at our testing session with the following changes:
-1 Fetch
-1 Snapcaster
-1 Mom Runes
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Elspeth KE
+3 Serra Avenger
Sideboard I haven't decided on but I figure it will have at least 6 cheap counters (Pierces, maybe Counterspell?) for combo, at least 3 Perishes, another Vindicate, and probably Scullers.
Edit: After thinking about it some more I don't think I'll run the Avengers. I am going to cut 1 land for an Elspeth though.
I won the locals yesterday with the following list:
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Senseis Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 SoBaM
1 SoLaS
1 Batterskull
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
And I still DONT think Vial is the way to go.
I like your list, but it lacks 2 Unearth Maindeck. Take Mother of Runes out and insert some Tidehollow Sculler to take greater advantage from the ETB triggers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I ended up playing Ivan's list with -1 Mom, IoK, Fetch, Tundra, +1 Plains, Elspeth, 2 Unearths. Pretty happy with it but I'd like to get a sword in there somewhere.
Seems this deck isn't dead after all. See list below from this link: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=50153
Deck Name: B/W Stoneblade Position: 4
Deadguy Ale Daniel Potter Sideboard
Creatures [25]
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Instants [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [6]
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
Artifacts [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [21]
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Fetid Heath
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
Sideboard [15]
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
2 Perish
1 Retribution of the Meek
2 Vindicate
Interestingly, it seems that this deck didn't play any chrome mox and vials and went straight to aggro instead packing disrupting creatures like Mother of Runes, Revokers, Tidehollows and Aven mindcensor then using strong hitters like Mirran Crusader. Sideboard looks good to utilizing the ET package as well. Looks like the old DGA Vial deck with no Vials to me.
Any other thoughts?
Deadguy was never dead (pun unintended).Quote:
Originally Posted by paladin3056
Because Mental Misstep is out, Deadguy doesn't really want Chrome Mox anymore, and can play more 1-drops. Counterbalance has not made a return (yet?), so Aether Vial is not needed either. A simple yet elegant build I must say.
I saw the last game of his against Team America where he lost against geting his land wasted and Snapcaster being a badass. Cant say im a fan of karakas, show and tell is alot weaker now with alot faster combos in the format. Without mental misstep in the format, Thoughtseize is once again one of the strongest spells in the format. I like his version, fan of Mother of Runes. She makes game math alot harder for the opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by paladin3056
I went 6-2-1 at the Starcity Open in Indianapolis ending up 23rd with a BW list. I have subsequently decided on a light blue splash for Snapcaster Mage. I had a lengthy description of my card choice reasoning typed up but the interwebs decided to delete it and now I'm too lazy to retype it. Here's my current list:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Esper Charm
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Serra Avenger
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Aether Vial
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
4x Scrubland
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
2x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
SB:
3x Perish
2x Path to Exile
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Spell Pierce
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Serenity
1x Planar Void
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
The Deck is very streamlined and has been very consistent for me. I'm still testing the 2x Esper Charm//Hymn split but I have to say so far I haven't once wished that the Charm in my hand was a Hymn instead. I also like Vial as a 3 of, because it is always trumped turn 1 by Thoughtseize and I never want to see multiples of it, but when I do stick one it is often crucial for my tempo. (And Tidehollow+Vial is just stupid good.)
This list I posted on the previous page was what I ended up running at SCG Nashville, to 6-2 and an 18th place finish. Only changes I'd make are probably cutting the last two Serra Avengers and going all-in on Mirran Crusader, and swapping Perish in for Ghostly Prison in the board (Perish would have changed the outcome of at least one of my losses).
There was never a point when I wanted Feast and Famine over Body and Mind, or Thoughtseize or any other "real" discard, let alone any sort of third-color splash :)
brought a similar list to a tournament and failed with it... I don't think im such a bad player however...
with 21 lands 4 vials
all creatures were 2 cc...
and the only spells I needed 3 mana was for 3 vindicates and the equipments...
Relying on serra avenger as the only win condition is also probably a mistake on my part..
I often found the deck mana hungry...and always wanting my 3rd land.. and 4th...mana drop
Im not sure if its because there is so much 2 cc spells or what... or if its because I mostly faced aggro decks...
The deck felt really slow....but I also felt it was capable of winning any match ups....
I guess that was my main concern, lack of win conditions and its quite slow..
Howdy! Thanks for the kind words on my list for Starcity Nashville.
A lazy, late and hasty report follows:
Placed fourth out of 169 last weekend with W/b Stoneblade. List here.
Basically I went in expecting a field of High Tide, Tendrils, Ichorid and Merfolk. I ended up facing these decks zero times, but had a fun day and made $850, so no complaints!
In the wake of Mental Misstep’s banning I had thought about incorporating blue into the deck I placed 9th with in Atlanta, possibly sans FOW in the vein of the James R. Bant deck that won the Grand Prix.
In the end I went with the assumption that it’s easier to Thoughtseize correctly than cast Force of Will correctly. Think about it: Hymning yourself to get ahead is hard! I also opted to just let Hymn and Gatekeeper go because I figured getting BB and BBB would be hard if I was serious about casting Mirran Crusader. The end result I didn’t even shuffle until we were underway. Ha!
R1
Heath was playing Natural Order/Show and Tell. G1 he wins the roll and has an early Hierarch. I mulled to five but turn-two a Phyrexian Revoker naming Hierarch, and on turn three Heath is sad. A subsequent Wasteland into Sculler reveals I have indeed crushed his hopes and dreams of a T3 Natural Order.
G2 He manages to get Jitte on a 3/4 Goyf, at which point he kills a dude and goes to 4/5, enabling Retribution of the Meek to solve the board. Discard keeps him pinned down and off his combos while I smash him down.
2-0
R2
The mirror! Whaaaat?
Game one takes a half hour and climaxes in an epic board state as I have Revoker, Bob, Stoneforge and two Moms versus his two Phyrexian Crusaders and like a Stoneforge, and we both have Sword of Feast and Famine on the board, plus he has Jitte. I keep Momming up something carrying equipment to get in, and my opponent can’t swing back effectively because I’m moving gear to untapped guys and leaving Revoker behind to shunt his pro-white, pro-black Crusader’s protection and in turn get protection of its own via Mom - no Jitte counters sir! Eventually the card-advantage from keeping Bob alive just smothers him, but it was close: a couple times I had to remember to peel Jitte counters of my own for insurance life before revealing to Bob.
At some point my opponent also wasted one of his Vindicates by forgetting what Mom does, which didn’t hurt me.
G2 I keep a loose hand, he Hymns away my white source and thusly steals game two with poison counters. Game three ends in a draw befitting the mirror. Nice opponent!
1-0-1
R3
Played against Dustin, a friend of a friend I’ve split a few rooms with. Dustin is hilarious and addresses me as “Witch” all the time. Incidentally I am wearing a SkeletonWitch shirt and Dustin loves Jesus. Yep.
He is with Esper Counterbalance today, and we both mull to 6 when Dustin declares “Oh you’re getting raped!” I then mull to four and keep a hand of Fetid Heath, Vindicate, Aven Mindcensor, Mirran Crusader.
Dustin plays Island, Top, and then spins on one land for a few turns while I hit runner-runner lands into Aven Mindcensor on three. By this point Dustin, still stuck on one, has had to discard a Dreadnought I think. He remarks aloud he’s not sure whether or not he cares, clearly holding counter, and lets Mindcensor resolve.
He then finds three fetchlands and whiffs on all of them. At some point I make him counter a Vindicate and maybe stick a Wasteland on Underground Sea? The whole time I’m like “In for two.” “In for two.”
Basically that Mindcensor tips some very awkward luck in my favor.
I don’t remember game two at all except to say I think Mirran Crusader was rude and Dustin was not happy.
2-0-1.
R4
Nice opponent in Bant, he finished 9th. List here.
I almost mess up game one as we have an awkward ground stall and I can’t seem to find a fourth land to go Jitte Equip in one go, even though I chose Jitte with a Mystic! I tell him I am going to make a weird play, him knowing Jitte is in my hand by choice, and I play another Mystic to get Batterskull, which proceeds to solve all my problems. Game two is helped when his Meddling Mage names Swords to Plowshares, which is in his hand but never mine. He cracks in for awhile double-exalted but I stabilize with equipment and I think a late Perish salts the wound.
3-0-1
R5
Raul is playing Snapcaster BUG and game one he shreds my hand with flashback Inquisition of Kozilek and my Thoughtseizes feel real lousy by comparison. This game takes like a half hour and I end up getting ground down by a Snapcaster that does probably 14 damage. I don’t remember much except game two I got double Mom via Fetid Heath on T2 which made Raul’s spot removal hate life, and G3 was very close and may have been in turns when I just barely managed to kill him thanks to huge card advantage from Bob breaking a topdeck war, and I think Sword of Fire and Ice pushing me over the top in the nick of time. Aven Mindcensor also kept him one mana short of what he needed for what would've been the clutch Pernicious Deed. Another very nice and entertaining opponent!
4-0-1
R6
Chris Van Meter
U/W Stoneblade, eventual 2nd place finisher, list here.
He plays an early Stoneforge for Batterskull, but I keep him off cheating it in by naming Stoneforge with Revoker. Life is good until I attack said Revoker into a Mutavault, d’oh. I maintain relative parity for a long time with two Moms, but probably make a mistake in trying to just race Chris instead of murdering a Jace that sat on five counters and Brainstormed probably four turns in a row. Somewhere in there I also played Mother of Runes like it was 1998 and tapped blockers don’t deal damage. If you think that’s bad you should hear me bitch about wanting damage to stack so I can 2-for-1 people with Qasali Pridemage...
G2 he sticks an Elspeth and I respond with my best impersonation of this right here.
Super nice opponent, and also mega humble when I asked about life as an alléged professional.
4-1-1.
R7
Adam is playing Zoo and forgets to attack me with his T2 Pridemage, then taps out without using it, affording me a window to actually STP it and thereby keep some equipment out. This all proves costly for him, as at one point this game I am on three life, meaning if he’d remembered to swing he would’ve taken it. Instead I eventually stabilize my life with Batterskull and win.
Game two takes too long and I also lose. I encourage Adam to play faster and more sloppily because our two decks should really really not be starting game three with less than ten minutes remaining, but there we are. Looking back I was probably brusque over not wanting to wind up drawing in extra turns; I hope this did not hurt old Adam’s feelings, as I have known him since about 2006.
Anyway game three he forgets I have Mother of Runes on the board a couple of times and loses a couple of burn spells this way. I manage to find a Mirran Crusader and smash all in during extra turns #2 and 4 with like Mom and Stoneforge and stuff to squeak enough damage through. I was at enough life to happily not use Swords to Plowshares on his Knight of the Big/Big, as doing so would’ve given him waaay too much life to get there with my last possible attack.
5-1-1.
R8
Win and in. Drew is a nice guy who ends up 16th with Imperial Aluren, list here.
I have the discard and the dudes to keep him from ever seeming too close to combo-ing out. I'm definitely just smashing in with Moms as I'm confident removal isn't my main concern from him. But I can’t remember quite what his kill-mech is so I let a Revoker sit in my hand about four turns while grinding him out. Answer: should’ve named Cavern Harpy and ground him out faster, but I got there.
G2 he mulls to four. To salt the wound I have E.Tutor for Canonist and Sculler his Repeal. Sorry dude.
6-1-1.
In the top eight I vote to split, because betting double-or-nothing $325 on the assumption you won’t get screwed is like surfing in trunks made of steak: just asking to get bit. Anyway I believe my opponent declined, and you can read about that costing him here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...raves_vs_.html
When reviewing my decklist he asked what Retribution of the Meek does. I told him it kills Tombstalkers and leaves Mirran Crusader intact. Sorry, is that rude?
7-1-1.
In the top four we agree to split and I am suddenly able to Vial in three car payments ahead of curve. $_$
Then Todd Anderson rolls me 2-0; his list here. If you caught it live and thought I played sloppy as hell, you’re right.
I guess Revoker could name Pernicious Deed against his board but whatever, Todd is definitely a tighter player than me and good for him; he was a very nice and fun opponent and maaad patient even when I was busy making illegal plays and getting warned. So good for him and Chris.
Thoughts on my 75:
My manabase needs tuning. Urborg is cute but rarely relevant. The fishy dudes are all awesome. I’m not in love with Batterskull but sometimes it just batters a bunch of skull while gaining you like 8 life and making racing seem miserable for the opponent. I often boarded out whatever piece of gear seemed least relevant and the fourth Mystic, and often boarded in Vindicates. Not having at least one Engineered Plague to tutor-up post-board feels like a mistake in retrospect. It’s tempting to say a Thoughtseize or three could be replaced with Inquisition because the lifeloss gets scary and Sculler also hits whatever else you’re scared of, but how that split skews someone else has to figure out. I NEVER WISHED I HAD AETHER VIAL OR CHROME MOX OR BITTERBLOSSOM.
Props: everyone from Murfreesboro who reminded me not to have too much fun and instead win. Sterling for retrieving pizza. This: ! <---This list right here. I knew I hadn’t been smart enough to figure this approach out on my own.
Slops: I'm trying to talk less shit these days, friends. Play a bunch of Magic and freak out, okay?
Nice report.Quote:
Originally Posted by danpo
You say you never missed having Vial and then link a list with four of them? Are you planning to change to that next or saying that is what you based your list on?
Nice report.Quote:
Originally Posted by danpo
You say you never missed having Vial and then link a list with four of them? Are you planning to change to that next or saying that is what you based your list on?
I linked to the list from SCG Charlotte that played E.Tutor and Vial because I was a bigger fan of that 60 in May and June than seemingly clunkier lists packing weird numbers of Rituals and Chrome Moxes in hopes of resolving everything from Mirran Crusader to Phyrexian Obliterator. Awk-ward.
At the time playing Tidehollow Sculler seemed like an offbeat choice over Hymn to Tourach, and maindeck Revoker struck me as strange, but I built that list and had grand fun with it for awhile, then put it on the back burner to focus on G/W Maverick for a couple months, and still had it in mind when I came back to W/B. So! Credit where credit's due, hence that link.
(G/W is what convinced me to switch from Serra Avengers to the Mindcensor/Crusader team btw.)
Anyway yeah I like the idea of being able to name Vial with Revoker, and mana issues aside I like the way my list top-decked, and I think it's plenty susceptible to Pernicious Deed already, so I guess my bottom line is no, I'm not planning on reverting to Vial this minute.
Since I can't get to the linked site at work I'm goin to assume that the list you linked is my T8 list from Charlotte. I'm glad it was an inspiration and led you to good things. Obviously it wasn't perfect since there were very few people that took the list seriously until I did well with it, and even then it seemd to be plagued by naysayers and bad pilots.
If I start playing Magic again I'll definitely be looking closely at the differences between the two lists. I do like Mindcensor quite a bit and think he's really good for this style deck.
Thanks for the credit.
So My question is. How is the matchup against control decks like bugstill, ub control, and uw control with snapcaster? Next question If the matchup is poor what can be used in the board to improve the matchup? For instance would vial improve the matchup against control. I know I have a lot of different questions but I am a maverick player and am looking to be able to play a creature based version of this deck.
Im playing an Vialless Version of this deck with 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn etc. and as creatures 4 SFM 4 Bob 4 Nighthawk 2 Jotun Grunt and rest some removal und equipment stuff and Bitterblossom.
I didnt have any problems with any Controlmatches before Snapcaster came, didnt play DeadguyAle since the release. I dont know if it changed much but they were all somewhat favourable.
we have a bit of a bad matchup with control decks because we play a 1 for 1 game, as do they but we have nothing as high impact as jace. there are three ways I have liked in testing to deal with this problem but none of them involve staying strictly B/w
1. Red splash (a single plateau will do if money is tight) gives you access to pyroblast which is amazing.
2. blue splash, as discussed above a blue splash for snapcaster, brainstorm and if you really want mana leak is quite powerful as our snapcasters are better than theirs (snappy + force = bad snappy + hymn = amazing)
3. green splash. The addition of 1-2 green sources to play 3-4 copies of knight of the reliquary (NOT GOYF) can allow us to have more high impact spells so as to end the game much faster. do not use tarmogoyf! a big dumb beater is the last thing we need! the difference between 2 and 3 cmc shouldn't be too relevant in the control matchups anyways.
As for fighting it in just straight black white it can be done but is very hard. you need to go ultra aggressive with targeted discard getting rid of their powerful control elements (free spells, board wipe, jace) and then use one or two high impact creatures (SfM, bob) to gain a ton of advantage. we beat these deck by beating them at their own game. card advantage is king and we can make tons of it
Control decks are not a bad matchup, unless they're Counterbalance-based and can get the engine running before you stick a Vial :)
Seriously, in Nashville I lost to Todd playing BUG because I wasn't really awake yet and because I'd been expecting him to be on NO RUG. Otherwise... well, the following round I basically obliterated a Stoneblade opponent.
If you're running the Vial build, obviously that's your strongest card against them, but really the whole deck's good. You're putting them in a Zoo-ish sort of dilemma where they don't have enough counterspells and removal to deal with everything you cast, and your creatures do much more disruptive things to their game plan. Zoo doesn't Revoker their Jaces and Mystics, or run Mom to protect from spot removal and keep those bears hating. Plus, Jace dies to Vindicate, just like practically every other permanent in the game.
And, honestly, the control decks just aren't running enough board sweeps nowadays to make a dent; even as little "discard" as Sculler can get there.
Hey all
I recently picked up three sweet altered Bitterblossoms and I thought of Deadguy Ale as a deck that I've always wanted to play. I'm reading through most of this thread (still on Page 123) but I just wanted to put this list up for your critiquing:
Lands (22)
4x Swamp
4x Scrubland
2x Plains
4x Marsh Flats
2x Arid Mesa
2x Verdant Catacombs
Creatures (12): - Is this too little?
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
Planeswalkers (3):
2x Liliana of the Veil - Don't see why this doesn't fit in Deadguy Ale, she provides both removal and discard
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Late game card, shores up Zoo matchup
Enchantments (3):
3x Bitterblossom - I really want these in the deck
Artifacts (3):
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Body and Mind
Discard (10):
2x Cabal Therapy - Goes well with Bitterblossoms
4x Inquisition of Kozilek - No Thoughtseize due to 1) Budget reasons and 2) Better against Zoo which we struggle against
4x Hymn to Tourach - Is this outdated? However, my meta is quite blue
Removal (7):
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
Sideboard:
3x Perish (Zoo, GW Maverick)
1x Sword of Fire/Ice (Tribal)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Planar Void
1x Warmth (Burn)
2x Engineered Plague (Tribal)
1x Cursed Totem (DnT)
1x Serenity (Enchantress)
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm)
I understand that this deck's weaker matchups are Zoo and G/W Maverick. Are the Perishes enough to shore up this matchup?
Furthermore, I have seen the move towards Vial lists with hatebears - is that a better direction than the more controllish style of my deck?
2 BW decks in the top 16 scg Kansas city, 1 vial version 1 Mox version.'
The deck is fine against Maverick. Reason zoo is bad mu is cos of their reach and loads of removal all the reach gives.
I hate to burst your bubble, but I just switched from Bitterblossom to Elspeth in my build. It's much better, especially after the banning of Misstep. I'd go -3 BB, +2 Elspeth. I'd also go -2 Liliana. Her removal effect is so-so, and her first ability is only good when you have some way to break the symmetry of the effect (like in Pox, where she seems like she'd be amazing).Quote:
Originally Posted by yutang
Without Vial, I'm not huge on Tidehollow Sculler. He's neat, but honestly I think Mother of Runes and/or Phyrexian Revoker is far better (again, in a Vial-less build; he's probably better than Revoker in a Vial build).
I've also recently lost the third Stoneforge target and put it in the SB. I have yet to come up against a situation where I regret it. For your build, I'd much rather topdeck a fourth Vindicate than the third sword in the Stoneforge package, and the situations where you're running for a situational sword like SoF&I or SoB&M first or even second, or are putting down a third Stoneforge Mystic, just don't come up that often.
Hymn is definitely not outdated. It's still probably the best 2-for-1 in Legacy. Auto 4-of in Deadguy.
Perish is amazing and is a definite 3+ in the Sideboard. It, along with Engineered Plague, really helps against Zoo (so does Mother of Runes). However, I disagree that Maverick is a bad matchup. It's about 50/50. But, like you, I do't run the Vial build, and prefer the controllish side of Deadguy. It works very well against midrange decks like Maverick.
Ill show you my list, which Ive won 3 locals in a row
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamps
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 SoBaM
1 SoLaS
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard is something like:
4 Extirpate
3 Perish
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
2 Thorn of Amethyst
Im pretty confident about EVERY choice in this deck.
Things you might NOT like:
4 Equips: I really like having enough equipments in long battles of attrition vs Maverick, Stoneblade and stuff. You do tutor up the right one via SFM and find any via the library - which is better than it sounds.
Vampire NIghthawk: He has been such a powerhouse - 4 lifeswing is good - even in Legacy. Hes the best blocker - even better than tarmogoyf
Jotun Grunt: Mainboard dredgehate + its recycling your stuff in your graveyard
3 Tops: Some would say 2 are enough, some would say we dont need them. I can just tell you its pretty impossible for me to play without them + without Vial/Mox. Id suggest 2-3
Greetings
@Phillipp802
Solid classic Deadguy list! Here is how I suggest you should improve it:
Jotun Grunt isn't a very good card by itself and fades away really fast. I suggest you try a couple of Tombstalkers instead. Since you play 3 Tops, there are no reasons to be afraid of him. Besides, with 4 VNH, Batterskull, SoLS, and Jitte, you have a lot of life gain to make up for any of the life loss already in your deck.
Speaking of swords, SoFI is much better than SoBM. I value pro red over green when all your creatures are within Bolt/Grim range. Pro white is superior to green any day of the week so I don't see the need to fetch SoBM over SoLS. Green only really offers relevant protection against Goyf and Terravore while white offers protection from StP, PtE, Crusader, and Vindicate. Not to mention that I wouldn't want to connect with a SoBM against a Terravore and that SoLS also offers protection from common black removal. In short, SoLS > SoBM vs. Aggro and SoFI > SoBM vs. Control and Small Aggro (Merfolk, Mav, Goblins, Deadguy, etc...)
Also, don't you get mana/color screwed often with only 20 lands? With 4 Wastelands I would lean towards 21-22 lands.
Jotun Grunt fades, but it has application against just about every deck in the established/tier 1-1.5 metagame. Dredge guys, Life from the Loam, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Grim Lavamancer, Snapcaster Mage, Tombstalker. Versus Tribal it often persuades them not to swing for the turn it comes into play, and then clocks in for 4 or eats a chump.
2x seems like an alright count. You don't always want to see multiples and it's better in the midgame than turn 2.
I don't think it can be counted on as a 'go the distance' win condition like SFM -> Batterskull or Tarmogoyf or w/e, but it's a solid piece of tech that is generally disruptive for a few turns. Sometimes it gets some damage through, sometimes serves as an abyss-esque effect against swarm agro, or eats a removal spell. For a 2 mana investment I'm generally pretty pleased with it's output.
Because nobody plays Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf isn't really a threat anyway... I think that unless your meta is full of RUG decks SoBM is indeed better than SoFI. Anything with a sword on it is already out of Lavamancer range, so you can't use that argument, and if it has >1 toughness it's out of bolt range too. I'm also far more concerned with staying alive against green fatties than I am with black removal in general. SoBM lets you swing past an army of Goyfs/KotR/Clique/Merfolk/Elves and gives you a blocker to replace the tapped guy. SoLS requires you to have a dude in your yard and mana open to cast him again, and nothing better to do with that mana. Obviously SoFI is better against Goblins but that's one 2%of the field on any given day versus 80%Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Sword of Fire and Ice serves a different function than the other 3 playable Swords imo. SoF&I is played first for it's triggers and the protections are the tacked on bonus, where the other swords are played more for their protections with their triggers being a tacked on bonus.
I think Stoneforge packages really want a go-to for the Jace-based control and slower/disrupted combo match ups. Sword of Fire and Ice provides the reliably fastest clock while drawing into more fuel to stay ahead. It splash buffing the Merfolk and Goblins match ups isn't too bad either.
Obviously Jitte is auto include.
I think cases can be made for SoB&M, SoF&F, SoL&S and Batterskull depending on one's list and expected meta.
SoB&M and Batterskull help in lists with less creatures, since they each provide more. And I would agree with Tim the Enchanter that versus Knight of the Reliquary SoB&M is probably the strongest. If your list doesn't have much evasion this sword is appealing because it makes one's bears able to get in for 4 through walls of Goyfs and Folk.
SoF&F is good against BUG getting around their removal and dodging Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. It plays well with more creature heavy lists, since you can swing through, untap and reequip to a blocker, and if one's deck has land tricks (Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port) or a higher curve it's aides some to that too.
SoL&S is good against Zoo putting all your guys out of Bolt range and pro-PTE, being able to get guys back from the 'yard can be good for attrition battles, probably more so than most of the other triggers. I think the pro-White is the big sell point here.
Most Stoneforge Mystic lists I run tend to have Mother of Runes, so Swords To Plowshares/Path To Exile are already mitigated to some degree and SoL&S makes my equipment wearer unable to gain Mom protections. For these reasons I tend to not be too fond of the sword, if one didn't run Mother of Runes I could see their pov being understandably different.
If you really wants a sword against zoo the sword of war and peace is alot stronger then solas. Pretty much only need 1 guy with that sword equiped to go in to unlosable mode.
TBH the creatures I fear the most atm is KotR and Thrun. Thought if you dont have any mavericks in your meta this might not be a problem.
I use only sobam as my sword equipment. SOBAM is the only sword that increases your board position without any more mana useage and makes you able to attack and still have creatures back to block. 5 Connections at most is needed, anymore and their deck is gone already.
Only reason atm I would consider SOFaI would be if goblins and merfolk where everywhere or if playing with Serra Avengers.
As of right now I use a couple of maindecked Relic of Progenitus. For the simple reasons to counter Megaman (snapcaster), dredge, reanimate and to blow out kotr and tarmogoyfs.
I definitely agree that choice of Swords becomes a meta call. Jitte should be an auto-include. Batterskull I'm not a HUGE fan of in this deck, mostly because of its high cost.
What are everyone's thoughts on running a playset of Chrome Mox in this deck? A turn 1 Bob, SFM, Hymn, Tidehollow, or Sinkhole all seem pretty devastating!
Ten, maybe 15 Pages back in this thread are all pros and cons for chrome mox listed.
I played 3 a period but dropped them cos they are dead cards later and often you don't want to play a 2drop turn one, but play discard, so you won't get the full value. Plus its CDA
Was gonna try out some new cards today... but I lost first matchup against tempotresh after 2x mul 1 fetch hands vs stifle decks, bad start. And draw the sucky neccesary evil singleton Plain. Was expecting alot more snapcaster and maverick but instead I get paired with combo elves, bant-blade/GSZ deck and countertop-stoneblade deck. 3 Hours before tournament I removed my Ethersworn Canonists from my board wich sucked they would be great against that elf deck :P
Cards I was planning to try out more further was Maindecked Bitterblossom Mortarpod, Blade Splicer without moxes / Vials. But didnt really get to test much of it sadly.
Mortarpod kills:
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster
Bob
Noble
Mom
Delver
Hoses Dredge
with more!
Theory behind Blade Splicer. With snapcaster in the format before board UWx decks got 4 swords and 4 snapcaster and after board they have up to 4 extra paths. Or the tempo decks got 4 bolts and 4 snap before board. This imo makes it pretty much impossible to play with Mirran Crusader without mother of runes and Counters. As well as 1WW mana cost is bad with Stifle waste of tempotresh is back. Blade Splicer is a solid 2 for 1 board presence when every body can carry a sword or jitte to victory. As well as it can be sacrificed to Cabal Therapy and still have a 3/3 creature left. The golem is large enought to trade with nimble mongooses or even win against it when the splicer is in play. Splicer theory is about the same as Joe Bernal's bw deck where he had 3 Spectral Processions. Thought that card having 6cc is to harsh drawback with bob imo. Much props to him for sticking to the archtype and develope it in a scg blue metagame.
Lessons learned from today:
*Relearn to play against naked Counterbalance :(
Played Bitterblossom against a naked Counterbalance while having a Gatekeeper in hand I could play the same turn to check if there was a 2cc ontop. lololol shot myself the foot. Im blaming the lack of sleep "cough" or something :P
*Add 1 more land to the deck, just not fetchlands. Probly a Ghostquarters RUG mana is very greedy. If not just an other Swamp.
*Hymn to Tourach can still steal games from nowhere!
*Anti-graveyard cards in Relic and Surgical Extractions are really strong atm, Specially against thoes pesky rug decks.
I run this list in a small tournament, 4 round swiss:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Inqusition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Batterskull
2 Liliana of the veil
2 Elspeth, knight errant
4 scrubland
1 Godhollow shrine
2 plains
2 swamp
3 wasteland
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
2 arid mesa
Had a sideboard with enlightened tutor toolbox.
I had not anticipated any burn decks, of course I ran in to two of them. Lost both (2-0, 2-1). Lost vs u/w snapcaster/stoneforge (2-1). Got a bye so no last game.
Overall I missed the last hymn against RDW and a warmth in sideboard... When I opposed the UW player I knew I needed to land a Bitterblossom to win. Got there with the tutorpackage secondgame when tutoring into the bitterblossom and slaming it turn two when he had only plains in play. Third game I managed to get it into play quite early about turn 4 but it wasnt enough. He just beat me down with a batterskull and SoFaF when my Vindicate had gone bad to a FoW.
Changes I will probably make is +1 hymn -1 Liliana. She was worthless in these games, but is great in other games. Hymn is better overall...
Looking forward to GP Indy in march, i'm trying to evolve my deck for the current meta. Try'd to make it aggresive enough to deal with RUG, but still be able to beat the combo/control decks...Been lulling over the Vial version or mox/bitterblossom version...I went with vial and here is the deck i'm starting to test...
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
3 Mother of Runes
1 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Tidehollow Sculler
I would say 18 creatures are to low for a Vial version. Phyrexian Revoker and Tidehollow are both strong in the vial versions.
Myself im considering exploring more of the token rout like Joe Bernal's list or a more planeswalker based version with couple of more lands.
I had Revoker and sculler in my old list, but with all the bolts running around its hard to keep your beater alive with mom, and keep one of those two alive. Versions I've run before have only had at most 21 creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
This is why you play the token list :P You get a lot of creatures at a low cost that says "do u have sweeper?" when u play it..Quote:
Originally Posted by conley1000000
What do you guys think about Kor Skyfisher It allows for some bouncing, turn 3 acceleration, a flyer, and some tidehollow sculler shenanigans like what Death and Taxes does with Flickerwisp. Resets Jotun Grunts counters, and reuses stoneforge if needed. Theoretically you can bounce your lands if they try to wasteland them via vial.
yeah, thats the other version i was thinking of. I like that version too, but just not sure of the build. I didnt like Bernals last list with spectral procession, but i like the idea. I just dont like the negative sides of it with the mox version with losing a card, and the life loss with bob, and bitterblossom. I do like the mox versions ability to t2 3 drops, which Aven mindcensor is onet that i'd like to try. Great tempoQuote:
Originally Posted by Narluin