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Councils Judgement
Why should this card be on our radar? Well, this card is going to be picked up by D&T and Maverick. What is one of those decks worst match ups? Elves. Now, why is the matchup so bad for them post board after they get to access their white disruption? Progenitus.
I think it will replace O ring in their side boards as a way to deal with TNN, and more relevant to us, the soul of the world. Something to keep in mind for the post board plan versus these decks. We can no longer blindly win through NO-PRO, and must plan for the possible out they now possess besides low CMC artifact hate.
This is WAY too early to call and I think it's very likely things won't end up that way, but with Toxic Deluge and that new Über-Vindicate, I keep growing less of Progenitus lately. If only Aetherling was green.
On another note, had great success with Packmaster maindeck in the Legacy Daily Events today. Also Bitterblossoms, Meekstones, Surgicals and 1 Sylvan Library in the sideboard. Trying to get out of the "old" flow to get a feel for the new stuff. Needless to say, I'm super soft to combo with the current configuration but I don't mind right now.
/edit: went 3-1 twice in today's Legacy DEs only losing to Elves (twice!).
Do you guys think packmaster would be better than imperious perfect? Packmaster can store a guy pre-sweeper but imperious perfect is better post-sweeper.
I really think tat we need a decay/bolt-proof elf with a +1/+1 effect in SB. So, not imperious perfect, or as an addition to Wilt-Leaf Liege/Wren Run's Packmaster.
If we had enough SB slots, we could have more than one target, but SB slots are quite hard to have if you don't want to be soft vs combo.
Wilt-Leaf Liege vs Wren Run's Packmaster
WRP is better once in play, and very strong in some MUs. It's even playable in some MUs where WLL is not (or at least bad).
However the need for an elf has been an issue for me against jund, which is one of the MUs this target is included for. So unless there is more fair decks and I could include a second GSZ-target against fair decks, I will stick with WLL (if I put a second it would be WRP over imperious/archdruid/2nd WLL).
So.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...0224&type=card
Sigarda is probably just better, though.
EDIT: Asd, Deluge/ûber-vindicate. Should be ok for big-midsize beater slot though.
How's Bitterblossom been for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Or you just NO-Hoof for the win... Seriously, there isn't all that much to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerS
Facing a lot of dredge? Try Dryad Millitant! GSZ-ing that T2 is often quick enough, the only exception being when they already have a Dread Return in their graveyard. You instantly shoot down all their flashback cards. Sure, it doesn't instantly win you the game, but often will give you the time you need to get the kill. I know most people here are against running one, but this little bugger has done quite some good work for me so far in my meta (I tend to face quite a bit of Dredge, and it also buys me a little bit more time vs. ANT). Regardless, also keep running some non-GSZ'able graveyard sweepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I use one Tormod's Crypt in my sideboard to fight dredge since you can land it on turn 1 but the Dryad Militant idea isn't so bad. I'm more afraid of Dread Return than any of their spells. Last time, I was on the draw and my dredge opponent unfortunately used a Dread Return to reanimate an Elesh Norn. Rough beats..
And landing a Millitant before they have a DR in their graveyard prevents that from happening :)
The last dredge-opponent I faced knew of my Millitant-shenanigans and opened with a T1 Carefull Study, dropping a Dread Return in his graveyard. On my T1, I dropped Millitant but unfortunately Elesh Norn hit his graveyard soon after. Oh well :P
4-0'ed today's Legacy Daily Event as well, #boom, I'm back! Still only at 1800 Constructed Rating but after losing so hard last week, it feels really good to 10-2 over the last three DEs with the two losses only from the mirror match. :smile::smile:
Here's what I was using. It's probably super bad but the heavy hitting sideboard cards such as Meekstone were a lot of fun. It's like taking hardcore revenge on RUG for all the crimes it committed to me in the past. #Booyakasha!!!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bol6mTsCIAAhy01.png:large
How many combo decks did u face where you would want ruric md? Im also thinking of running the packmaster main.
New, crazy idea for SB
Crazy Board (aka Blame Lejay):
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
Probably needs an 8 fetch manabase with only 1 basic or 1 Arbor. (In my 19 land version, anyway)
Is nuts, but hey :D
Not like the combo matchups put much, if any, pressure on your manabase. Just play a trop and a Savannah, everything else is green already and you have 4 DRS 2 Birchlore as bonus.
Too crazy I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Meddling Mage is not better than seize/cabal vs combo, especially in our deck and with your SB which had no other blue or white card than Meddling.
Combo will enter bounce/decay for ScOoze/Gaddock/value (slowing us down)
Meddling is already not so great in white/blue decks, but it's terrible in elves: hard to cast, to protect, not tutorable...
Play at least one gaddock before this!
And bitterblossom, which is here almost only for miracle, is I think worst than Needle/Choke/Garruck/Xenagos in this MU, and not playable in others.
Otherwise,
What's the logic behind WRP MD?
Better MU vs Miracle/Jund/BUG/D&T?
I think the WRP is there for the fair matchups or against decks wit Bolts and Decays. I could see it's application against Miracles but it doesn't seem that strong vs Swords to Plowshares. I could be wrong. I have one coming in the mail and I should be able to test it out this weekend at one of our larger local events.
In other news, the thread hasn't seen much action lately. I was gold fishing and thought this was an interesting dilemma. I have started my second turn after playing DRS off a fetchland. How would you play out the rest of this hand and why? For those who can't make out the pictures, there is a DRS and Forest in play with a land in the graveyard. Your hand consists of GSZ, 2 Elvish Visionary, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Gaea's Cradle, and 1 fetchland. I'm just curious to see other people's thought processes. There are quite a few ways to play out this hand.
http://i.imgur.com/8HfNadIl.jpg
I might go with a GSZ for Heritage off of Forest+DRS, tapping Cradle for 2 to play Quirion Ranger, returning the forest to untap the Deathrite into Visionary+Visionary or something (depending on the draws).Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
If you have some idea of what your opponent is playing then maybe you need to save the GSZ for a Viridian Shaman or something later, in which case I'd be satisfied with Visionary, Cradle for 2, Visionary then having 6 mana available on turn three with a GSZ and a Quirion + 2 cards.
So the two board states could be
Cradle, DRS, Quirion, Heritage, Visionary x2
(Verdant, Forest, 2 cards in hand)
Forest, Cradle, DRS, Visionary x2
(Verdant, 2 cards, Quirion, GSZ in hand)
And I personally think it really depends on what the first visionary draws and if you know what you're playing against.
I'm partial to the more conservative second line though since it leaves your GSZ open and provides a sufficient amount of mana on turn three.
Interesting. I actually wanted to just play Q.Ranger, fetch (into D.Arbor on opponent's EOT), pass. I'm perhaps over-valuing having an active Dryad Arbor in play on the next turn. Then I can play Visionaryx2 and have a superpowered Cradle to try and push that GSZ into a Hoof, depending on what I draw off the Visionaries+draw step.
Your second line provides a nice compromise though. The more I think about it, the more I like that.
I think the active Dryad is probably a bit less relevant when you already have a Deathrite in play, but that's more of a preference thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
That said I might be overvaluing the two cards you draw off Visionary.
Well the nice thing about leaving the GSZ in your hand is that you have access to Symbiote on turn three if your draws were subpar.
You're right on both fronts. I guess I mostly wanted to keep the GSZ in hand and play the Cradle at the last possible moment for fear of Wasteland. Of course, having a live opponent would change everything. That's just another reason why over-goldfishing with this deck can actually make you dumber sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by haganbmj
T1 Fetch to Forest and GSZ=0 for Dryad (I have 2 Visionary and quirion to play next turn. I dont like the DSR on this T1 because y I want 2 extra mana of my T1 mana generator in T2 and if my opponent doesnt fetch i doesnt have it)
T2 Quirion, DRS, Cradle for 3 mana, Visionary.
Depending on the Visionary draw there are multiples plays of the turn but at least you could play the other visionary and pass turn with the forest and 2 new cards.
Sorry for my terrible english.
I would tap DRS and forest to play visionary first. This allows you to potentially draw into a heritage druid, wirewood symbiote, gsz, etc. that would alter your lines of play. Assuming that the drawn card is a land or another irrelevant card. I would probably play cradle and gsz for 1 to bring wirewood symbiote into play. Against certain decks, this opens you up to wasteland but already provides you a card back in the form of bouncing visionary. If your opponent doesn't have wasteland, you probably win. Even if they do, you have the visionary recursion engine up and running.
I would definitely sandbag the GSZ in case the Visionaries draw dead and would not waste it immediately to setup the BFF combo just to see it fall victim to removal against an (still) unknown opponent. Neither would I burn the second Fetch for another Forest or Dual here as it would devalue the Quirion Ranger in case your opponent is on fast beatdown (Arbor-lock). Unless you can identify a combo deck on the other side of the table, I would drop the fetch, play a Visionary and pass. This way you have all the options in turn 3 there you have better knowledge of your opponents plan.
If you are running WRP in your maindeck, you can fetch it turn 3 with GSZ. I don't have to mention how absurd WRP + Cradle is...
I'd start with Visionary tapping forest + DrS (no land drop yet)
If you draw an heritage, then land the cradle, tap for GG and play Heritage + Quirion.
Tap the 3 untapped dudes for GGG, cast 2nd Visionary, floating G.
If you draw Wirewood, cast it and use the ability to untap DrS (bouncing one Visionary. Untapped DrS gives you some potential action during opponent turn).
If you draw something else and your opponent have a fetch in graveyard, use Quirion to untap DrS, then use floating G + DrS to GsZ for Wirewood.
If you don't draw heritage, just land the fetch and get Dryad eot. Next turn you can start the BFF engine.
BFF combo is crap against decks running a shitload of spot removal especially if you can have a real threat like WRP or the Behemoth itself if you sandbag the GSZ. Running out all your creatures just because you can is nonsense as long as you can draw one of your 4 Glimpse and the metagame is full of sweepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by B4L4
For me, some of the scenarios described have too many "ifs" like drawing Hertiage, Symbiote, asuming opponent is a goldfish (no counter, no combo, no removal), etc.
Alright.
Let's say I'm going all in (opponent plays no counter magic and has 1 fetch in GY)
Tap Forest (G)
Exile Fetch (GG)
Cast Visionary (Draw 1)
Play+Tap Cradle (GG)
Play Quirion (G) / Bounce Forest+Untap DRS
Exile Fetch (GG)
Play Visionary (Draw 1)
Kill next turn?
Erm ... how? I can't see it, pal. There are 2 visionary, a quirion, a drs and a cradle in play, a forest, a fetch and a GSZ in hand. Atm I can only see 6 mana :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
Funny... for me the line of play is really different t from what I read:
Not knowing what your opponent is on, I will:
tap DRS and forest for visionnary, then play cradle and second visionary, keeping gsz to fetch symbiot next turn if I didn't draw anything relevant of the 3-cards drawn (second cradle, second GSZ, NO, heritage, birchlore => 15 out of 52 => 64.8% chances on three draws) in which case I will probably tutor for regal/Hoof next turn or a symbiot and started a BFF engine, or a glimpse and another 1 drop...
Drawing neither glimpse, NO, GSZ, heritage, cradle, symbiot, glimpse or birchlore is 1- (proba of one of these 23 out of 52) => 1-0.835= 16.5% only.
Of course normally at this point you know what your opponent is on, and that should change things => not playing NO vs fow.deck,...
So basically I play the craddle and two visionnary. I do not share the vision of a meta full of sweepers (in which case putting visionary into play is fine anyway, as it helps you building pressure while adding power), and I'm not afraid of waste: against any waste.deck, I'm quite happy with DRS, quirion, 2 visio and forest while they spend one of their 2 land drops on a waste and I still have fetch + GSZ + 3 cards in hand. I will even almost consider that I won the game if I see waste => cradle.
Just a precision: against unknown opponent, I fear miracle and combo.
Playing cradle and 2*visionnary is the fastest if we're against combo.
Against miracle, I will like this configuration too, even if fetch (to grab dryad EoOT) + quirion is maybe better.
against other decks, first they let us have an active DRS, so they're not overloading with cheap removal. I will consider that I'm clearly ahead with this configuration and my GSZ+fetch+3 cards hand + DRS & loaded cradle in play.
Of course there is a lot of "ifs", we talk goldfish vs unknown opponent..Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And i should add more if, because of course if you happen to draw a glimpse / NO on your first visionary, it changes everything.
I think it's safe to deploy BFF if you naturally draw into the 2nd piece and/or if you can replay the bounced Visionary the same turn with Wirewood. And i would still be quite happy to see my opponent tapping out on his turn to break the BFF, gaining cards advantage & shields down for your next turn.
Otherwise, fetch -> go + eot Arbor into tons of mana + GsZ on your next turn is a good line of play.
Interesting. Thanks for all the replies. It's helpful to see how all of you think this stuff through. And it's especially interesting to see which cards people are valuing over others. Perhaps if I had presented a real game state with an opponent, our plays might be more in line with each other. Or they might still be just as different!
Yeah, I agree it's useful to see how others would play out certain scenarios. For those interested, here are the assumptions I made when evaluating the hand:Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
1. You're on the play since there are 8 cards (excluding fetch in gy).
2. Because we're goldfishing, your opponent played a card on turn 1 (tapped out) that doesn't impact your turn 2.
3. Due to the card played on turn 1, we know we're not up against combo.
I also grouped the opposing deck in one of 3 categories: blue-based disruption, black-based disruption, and LD-based disruption.
Blue-based disruption: miracles, stone-blade, RUG, UWR
Black-based disruption: team america, shardless, jund, junk, dead-guy ale
LD-based disruption: d&t, maverick, goblins
Against blue-based disruption, I preferred to follow up visionary with gsz->symbiote because I don't want their spell pierces or non-FoW countermagic to be live next turn. Moreover, I am speculating that they don't have removal since they would probably StP or bolt our turn 1 DRS.
Against black-based disruption, I speculate that they may have a turn 2 hymn coming since they didn't discard us on turn 1. For this reason, I want to play gsz earlier to mitigate against this. Abrupt decay is also possible but I believe it's better to lose our symbiote than the DRS since that would set us back on mana.
Against LD-based disruption, the only cards I really care about are gaddock teeg, aven mindcensor, phyrexian revoker, and thalia to a certain extent. All 4 are capable of coming down on turn 2. We're heavily favored in these match-ups so I don't want to give them a reason to get back in the game. I realize that spirit of the labyrinth would be pretty good against this play but I think I would hedge towards the other cards.
But there are scenarios that you have to guess or be lucky...
One thing is the other player drop Mountain -> Lackey (an obvious match). Other is Wasteland -> Vial (possible D&T, Goblins, Merfolk) or Fetch -> Bayou -> DRS (possible mirror match, BUG, Junk). Sure, it's some kind of information... But all decks cited before have different lines of play against/around, and sometimes you just have to guess/read minds.
You have a lot of interesting decisions contained in that image. Would you recommend any of them? I'm expecting a heavy delver presenceQuote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
About this specific Julian's SB:
I've played meekstone, the best card ever when RUG was THE DTB. BUGs have decay, so it's less reliable, and I will always favour 4th decay over meekstone vs BUG, at it doubles as a very good cards in fair, non-delver MUs
Otherwise I do not understand why dropping all hope vs combo while it's still very playable with some dedicated slots.
About the situation, it's indeed very interesting. None of the posters have posted two similar plays.. So to continue a bit further the game, what if the opponent played:
1) Misty Rainforest => Bayou => DRS;
2) Verdant catacomb, go;
3) waste, vial;
4) island, go;
5) island, ponder;
After a long break, i sleeved my elves back and play the forst-dudes the first time this year. Today i enjoyed a small tournament at an LGS.
Afterall 3:1 which leads to a 4th place (top was full with 9 points, first place included, so we need the Opp-Score)
Matchups:
2:0 vs Infect
2:1 vs Burn
1:2 vs Esperblade
2:1 vs Merfolk
Played the "basic" build, but without 2nd Hoof - I decided to go with the following flexslots: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Wrench's Run Packmaster
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
I created it for an unknown meta and to try something out. Sadly i never saw the Packmaster (tried to zenith him once vs merfolk but was disrupted with force), so no details here. On the other side, WLL was very good (even i don't see any "Liliana, Hymn, Bolts or Charms - Matchups"). WLL Boost won me a critical game vs Burn (and i hate the new Eidolon, matchups can get very tricky if it is maindeck) and it also worked good enough vs Merfolk.
Match vs Esperblade he get early Cage game 2 and 3 and i can't find an answer... (draw 3 Zenith and 1 NO a game...), but even the game i faced 1 Cage, 1 Needle (WS) and 1 Jitte i got enough turns to find Decay, VShaman, Glimpse, WLL or Packmaster, because both players get into topdeck mode. Cage is good vs us, but i think WRP and/or WLL is a good answer if you suspect Cage (which also blanks NO+Progenitus). Overall i was unlucky vs Esperblade, but felt comfortable enough with enough outs in the deck to turn the game in my favour.
After my break with this deck, Hoofing some players into dust was great and i enjoyed the elvish playstyle once again.
Anyone see Josh Ravitz's latest article on SCG yet?
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...At-Legacy.html
"Reid Duke disagrees with me vehemently, but I think Elves is maybe the worst playable deck in the entire format, boasting what I consider to be almost no good matchups--it's quite good against Death and Taxes--and as a combo deck failing to dodge creature hate, it really is something remarkable."
Yeah, I saw it. And let there be many believers of that perspective, please. Let there be an entire wave of Elves-as-meh conformists. Perhaps this way, WoTC will print us up a few more goodies to improve the wonderful challenge that is Elves. Elves is as hard a deck to play well as there has been, especially in the legacy format. It has a decent shot against any deck and is not a shoe in against most because it is so pilot dependent. Other than Hoof, it's hard to say that the deck plays unfair, and even hoof is dependent on creating a robust board state. All this said, I am happy to let the naysayers harp on and on. Llampoon the Llanowars and besmirch the Birchlores all you like, says I. In the end, it is what our best pilots do on the battlefield that counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kl'rt
Hear Hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_of_Rivendell
I just thought it was funny that Elves won the Open the night that article went up. ><
Ravitz :Yeah that's pretty unfortunate since (Elves)Quote:
Unfortunately, I don't have advanced copies of the T8 decklists from the SCG Open that takes place this and next weekend (at the time of writing), but it would be nice to have an even more complete picture heading into the tournament.
won that last SCG open defeating (Stoneblade)Quote:
the the worst playable deck in the entire format
Quote:
a deck people are not playing right now