[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

So I played a few 2mans last night. Ran over Grixis delver in an easy 2(at some point it was like b8tin it)
then I played against shardless. I went t1 therapy, turn 2 gsz for vet and sac the vet(FYQ, FYP). He conceded the match. Feels good, man.
Then I played against what I can only describe as a sweet UB deck. He went t1 island ponder. t2 ancient tomb skill borrower revealing griselbrand. He drew 7 and SnT in emrakul. Once I finished picking my brain up off the ground, I sideboarded and somehow become this weird artifact deck after. t1 duress, t2 chalice 1, t3 snt wurmcoil. forced my rhino.

Anyways, I have changes im going to make to my abzan list because it seems loose atm(playing 1 sfm/1 batterskull mb and 1 sofi sb)

No offense but I am more interested in skill borrower.dec than another abzan list haha. That list sounds pretty sweet with the transformational SB (which has always been quirk of some decks that I love).

This thread is now like a page past the comment but someone mentioned running probe. I recommend probe but only with access to blue. Probe makes turning therapy against combo very very dangerous because you no longer have to take high percentage plays but get to be much more targeted. It also does help upping the consistency. Does seem worse when you only have the option of paying life to cast it though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

You're missing the point, but that's fine.

@Ralf: In each and every manabase you present you can switch a Forest for another fetchland, upping the initial black count +1 so @10 mountains you could reach 14/14/15 G/B/R. For 11 mountains you can get to 14/13/16 G/B/R.

In case you didn't notice, I'm perfectly fine with having 14 initial green sources :tongue:. I think it's more import to aim for at least 14 across the board rather than >14 green and then whatever you can get.

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I'll try the +1 fetch -1 Forest config and I'll cobble between 13 and 14B.

In case you didn't notice, I said the 14G config is perfectly viable, mathematically wise.

The issue I am having is that unlike other Nic Fit version, Scape is very specific.
In Junk, you might be able to dig your way out with an opening hand that does not contain any green source but from experience, in Scape, this is rather a suicide. We don't have a lot of T1 play, save Veteran or discard.

Should I have met too much variance or what, but I do like the extra bit of insurance by playing 15G.

Anyway, this is just a personal "feeling" and it should not prevent anyone from playing the best theorical mana base:

14G 14B 15R (not counting valakut)

3 Taiga
4 Badland
3 Bayou
1 Stomping ground
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

or

15G 13B 15R (not counting valakut)

3/4 Taiga
3 Badland
3 Bayou
1/2 Stomping ground
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

For the 10 or 11 mountain debate, I still need to gather some data.
But after 100+ games, I didn't face the issue, once...
I have killed with a Scape for 12, 15 or 24 & 30 a good bunch of games, but I've never met the issue where I could not Scape at all.

Since the Dryad Arbor and Diabolic Intent are going - that makes Meren a lot less appealing. However there aren't that many other 4-drops that actually look relevant (resistant to bolt/decay, give some amount of value). Possible choices:

Huntmaster - Already have one. Might be good anyway though.

Mina and Denn, Wildborn - actually look alright. Can save lands from Wasteland (heh) and give me some Valakut lategame.

Thrun - much better with equipment or Wolf-run. I don't think I have the space for either of those, though.

Giant Solifuge - Great against control. Okay against all the combo decks. Not much in the way of synergy, though. Not great against anyone with creatures.

Chameleon Colossus - also really wants Wolf-Run.


I might try out Mina and Denn instead of Meren, with Primeval Titan in the Diabolic Intent slot.

Mina and Denn. Most of the time is was a worst version of Thrun. Never used the additional landdrop, because at the point where you can use 4/5 mana to get it on the floor your probably not holding multiple lands or arent getting multiple's soon. Also never used the activited ability. But then again, i never tried it in Scape.

It might be strong next to Courser (and SDT), but for what you want it to do Oracle of Mul Daya is better at it (except that one dies to everything).

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Read the Bones
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Warping Wail

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin

//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize

For reference, this is where we were at the last time.

The matches:

2-0 vs BUG Nic Fit
2-0 vs Shardless BUG
2-1 vs RUG Delver

The one game I dropped vs RUG was game 1 -- I mulled to 5, and he had t1 blindflip Delver into 3x Stifle + FoW + 2x Wasteland.

...K.

I crushed him fairly effortlessly games 2 and 3, although g3 was a little tricky just by virtue of his having planeswalkers out of nowhere (Jace VP and Dack Fayden). I also had ye olde 1-lander with Carpet of Flowers, which put me into 2x Vet and a Matter Reshaper, so we ended up in this obnoxious stall of my "punish you if you kill this" board vs his Goyf and planeswalkers.

One of the more interesting games on the day was g1 vs Shardless. I kept a probably bad idea / punishing hand of multiple colorless sources (Cloud, Glimmer, Phyrexian Tower), a Sensei's Top, and green cards including a Vet. He made a couple Shardless Agents and was beating me down fairly anemically while I sat there spinning Top every turn looking for a green source. By the time I got said green source, I had 2x Vet and a Therapy in hand, along with the Tower that was in play. When I finally got the green to start things off, I went NUCLEAR. It was actually a lot of fun, although I'm lucky he never saw a real clock.

I also got to win g2 by taking infinite turns with Phyrexian Tower and Eye of Ugin :D

So, what worked?

-) Matter Reshaper. The card is as good as advertised. I never went nuts with it with Nightmare or any of that garbage, but just as a 3/2 for 3 with upside he was great. He got me an uncounterable Pernicious Deed via a Sensei's Top in g2 vs RUG, which felt great. Most of the rest of the time he was either a land drop or a card in hand, which is fine.

-) Nissa. Nissa is bae. She actually feels even more important in this list because she can get you to GG off of one green source -- as in, her creature side isn't approaching useless like it is in some other versions (looking at you, Abzan rhinos). Due to the importance of the land ramping in this version, similar to Scape, she flips super easily and super quickly.

-) Eternal Witness. This is very important. E.Wit rarely makes the list of notables because, while solid, it never feels like it's doing anything broken. The difference here is that this version, courtesy of the cloudpost engine, makes GOBS of mana. This deck is built to loop Emrakul for infinite turns. It doesn't care about adding 3 to the cost of anything. In g3 vs RUG I was one mana short from being able to Zenith E.Wit, re-play and crack Pernicious Deed, and then cast Kozilek. The fact that I was /only/ one mana short of that play is retarded.

-) Kozilek's cast trigger. I don't even care about the rest of him....the rest of him probably goes down yonder in the "what didn't work" part. His cast trigger was insane for me -- I always drew at least 4-5 cards, getting the nut draw 7 once.

-) Read the Bones felt great. It wasn't quite as good as Painful Truths, perhaps (I'm still undecided on the scry 2 vs draw 1), but for a 2-color deck, Bones did the job just fine. I had to board them out vs RUG, which made my deck feel a lot worse...and even vs Shardless I was still running out of cards because of the raw amount of mana I was making. But, we'll get more into that later.

What didn't work?

-) Warping Wail. As much as I hate to say this. I will note that I was frequently happy to have Wail in my deck, but I rarely drew them. I got to exile a Vet when my Nic Fit opponent r1 was mana screwed with 5-drops in hand, and I got to counter a Hymn to Tourach vs Shardless. That was about it. I was sitting there at the time actually thinking to myself that it would be great to have a Wail in my hand -- Zenith from Nic Fit, Visions from Shardless, exile an unflipped Delver or Jace VP from RUG, etc....but I didn't have them at the time. Whenever I drew it, it was always the wrong time. Realistically, Wail might move to the sideboard in accordance with a realization that I'll get into in the next section.

-) Kozilek's body. A 12/12 menace is fine and all, but the real irritation with Kozilek was that he didn't shuffle back into my deck. Sure, he can be reanimated with Nightmare, but like, Nic Fit Therapied him out g1 and I was like, well, that sucks. Just lost my draw 7. His trigger and existence is still powerful enough that it justifies his presence in the deck, but I was very annoyed that he didn't shuffle back in like Big Mommy.

-) Maindeck Deluges, actually. Some of this might be matchup-driven -- I didn't play vs Grixis Delver, DnT, or Elves, obviously, which are the three things that the maindeck Deluges would especially shine vs. But even then, they felt like they were kind of unnecessary answers.

-) Nightmare. Something I've never actually said before, but Nightmare did underperform for me. I never got to hook it up to Matter Reshaper, and the biggest thing I threatened was to loop Vet -> Primeval Titan vs RUG, which is admittedly pretty scary. The real problem with Nightmare, I feel, is that this deck is akin to Scapewish (which you'll hear me say a lot about soon). It has a sufficiently big enough/powerful enough/consistent enough endgame that it doesn't care about Nightmare. Nightmare is /The End/ for things like Abzan because looping Rhinos is the closest that version gets to going broken. Scapewish and this version both go absolutely busted. They don't need or want Nightmare to get in the way.

Special category: sideboard?

Unfortunately, I didn't really sideboard much for this event. I ran with the prescribed sideboard, but I only brought in 2 cards vs Nic Fit, 2 cards vs Shardless, and 6 vs RUG (which, in retrospect, Pulse was probably incorrect). Disfigures overperformed vs RUG, and Carpet was as great as it always is. Didn't play against any combo on the night, so I can't say how good the other stuff is. I don't think that what I have in the board is bad, but I also don't know if it's good. Awkward place to be.

Okay, so where now?

First of all, let's compare this deck to Scapewish real quick.

-) They both have insane endgames involving 1-card combos.
-) Said endgame is extremely consistent and some degree of inevitable.
-) They both want to ramp rapidly and both take advantage of card draw better than most decks as a result.
-) They both have stringent manabase concerns.
-) They both have a lot more lifegain built in than most versions, as a way to buy time to get to the endgame.

Fundamentally, colorless and scapewish are both doing roughly the same thing. They're just different flavors of it....Scape goes a little faster, but colorless goes way bigger and isn't THAT much slower.

The Eternal Witness point in the "what worked" bit above is probably the keystone here. I think that this deck wants to join Scapewish as a "wish" deck. I want to experiment with Living Wish for this deck. Wishes increase the threat density and stability of the deck at the costs of both sideboard options and speed: you're paying 2 more for anything that you wish for, which tends to make wishes not as exciting. If Eternal Witness is busted in this deck because of the raw amount of mana it produces, then it logically follows that Living Wish is also going to be very good here. The biggest problem with a Living Wishboard is that most of the truly great targets are in white. If there aren't enough targets in BGC, then I'll find another option...I'm not going to add a color just to satisfy Wish.

Cards of note for wishboard:

Llanowar Wastes is the best land for the deck if you can only have 1 land, due to its tri-land nature.
Eye of Ugin is fragile maindeck, and while getting it with Titan is easy access, it does open you up to Wasteland. I think that one still needs to exist maindeck, but it's an option to add a 2nd sideboard.
Eldrazi of some kind. Ulamog is a good universal answer while also being a tentacular spectacular, but might be worse than sideboarding Kozilek 2.0 and maindecking a different monster.
Wurmcoil and Primeval Titan are both reasonable midgame trumps. Having a second Primeval in the board actually sounds pretty great, since that gives you an effective 8 Primeval Titans instead of 4.
Having access to a sac outlet is usually good -- Viscera Seer is probably the best option for this since it costs one mana and has a relevant payoff.
Thought-Knot Seer is good vs combo, and something we were sideboarding anyway.
Eternal Witness and Reclamation Sage are both good options, as are Bojuka Bog and Karakas.

This leaves two primary holes that need filled: a mini/full sweeper, and a faster combo option...something that's not 4 mana.

Looking through the sweeper options, there basically aren't any. The only wishable sweepers are a million mana, most of it black, which is unrealistic. Kagemaro, First to Suffer is probably the best option, which is 8 mana, including triple black, for a -X/-X = # cards in hand. Nowhere near good enough. Tabernacle is realistically the only option, and I'm actually not that high on Tabby, because the deck that you really want to hit with this is Elves, and they have Gaea's Cradle, which completely counters Tabby.

Here's a sample thought:

2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Primeval Titan
1 Viscera Seer

This operates under the assumption that Kozilek gets moved to the board with a different Old God going maindeck, as well possibly a maindeck RecSage (or just not caring because other ways of dealing with that stuff). There's only 6 targets here, but realistically 4 of them are wishable vs every matchup (T-KS, E.Wit, Primeval, and Kozi). Seer and Bog are very specific and narrow, they won't come up much, but will be great when they do. Of note: there's no room in this sideboard for Warping Wail, and there's no room for any sweepers. This means that Elves and Death and Taxes will probably be problems. There's also only five dedicated combo cards, which is light...although the ones that are present are VERY strong.

Worth noting that Scape also tends to only have ~5ish cards for combo as well, although the speed of its endgame factors in. At the same time, this version has a much less anemic beatdown than Scape does...Matter Reshapers are serious clocks to combo decks, especially if there is a 3-ball in play. It's possible that the Disfigures could be 2 more T-KS, which would allow for 2 to be boarded in with 1 still open to Wish for. Wishing for Bog is relevant vs Storm, though, as well. Not sure.

As far as the maindeck is concerned, this is where I'm looking for now:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Read the Bones
4 Living Wish

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin

Notes on maindeck changes:

4 Living Wish because as noted, I think the deck wants to be a lot more proactive and a lot less reactive. The first sketch tried to be too reactive -- too many counterspells, spot removal, and durdling. It's possible the Wishes end up being too far on the other end of the spectrum, and they get cut to allow for a modest maindeck removal suite. If they do, Kozilek likely returns to the maindeck over the Ulamog.

Oracle of Mul Daya allows for Zenith to grab card advantage. I'm not certain about this, but I want to at least test the option.

Wurmcoil joins the deck because there were two specific occasions on the night where I wanted to Eye of Ugin for something in the 6-8 mana range. I didn't have enough to get Kozilek, but I wanted to get something higher impact than a Matter Reshaper on turn 6ish. I also put in a 2nd Thragtusk in hopes that I never have to board out Read the Bones again. The draw engine was actually very important to the deck due to the rate at which it chews through its cards. Having to remove that because of an aggressive matchup made the rest of my deck feel worse, and I want to hedge against that.

Final Thoughts

Obviously, adding the Wishes is a pretty huge change. There's a lot of things in both the maindeck and the sideboard that are affected by this, and I'm unsure of a lot of card choices as a result at the moment. After a couple days (and probably some input from everyone here), I should have a much clearer idea of what's going on here. All I really know with certainty right now is that there is 100% a very competitive deck here. I hold to that Scapewish was probably my best brew in the competitive sense, and even though I ended up getting rid of it because I preferred to play other versions more than it, I can't really argue with the success its had. I strongly believe that there is a Scapewish-level deck here. The trick is just finding the right card selections for it.

Wishes or not is probably the biggest question right now, followed by the chain of: If Wishes, then how much removal vs If Not Wishes, then how much removal, as tempered by how much removal is actually necessary.

As far as matchups go, I can't really speak to that yet as it's way too early in this version's life to know much. I'm sure Elves is going to be miserable with the changes I just made -- before them, Elves was probably actually fine to positive. Elves was one of the matchups that Warping Wail and Toxic Deluge maindeck were best against. Storm is probably about the same as other matchups (highly unfavorable but winnable g1, 50/50-60/40 g2). Sneak/Show gains a little % just by virtue of having space monsters in the deck to blow out their Show and Tells, but then also loses a lot of % because there's no ability to splash red for Slaughter Games. DnT probably revolves completely around Pernicious Deed vs Revoker, as usual. At the same time, DnT has to worry about our very real beatdown plan and their anemic clock vs our endgame. Cataclysm is probably ungodly terrifying, even more than usual.

RUG is highly positive, as always; Shardless BUG seemed perfectly fine; Miracles has to be a shitstomp in our favor -- I can't see that going well for them at all, since we have 12post's endgame paired with Nic Fit's sweepers and midgame to deal with the Mentors. Lands is probably a nightmare, as always, as is Reanimator, I'm sure. Grixis Delver was something like 65-35 our favor with the Wails and Deluges, will need to retest with changes. We're probably still highly disadvantaged vs actual 12-post, since Cloudposts count ALL Loci, and they play 4 Clouds + Maps + more Titans to search them up vs our 3 Clouds + 1 Titan/3 Zenith/4 Wish. If we untap with the first Cloudpost, there's a chance we can race them to the space age. I haven't seen a BUG Delver in forever, despite Source's DTB assuring me that it still exists. That matchup has always been kind of a crapshoot because it depends on which half of their deck they draw. I don't know that this has really changed too much, but I do know that BUG Delver CANNOT beat a resolved Wurmcoil Engine, so we do have that going for us. ObBaloth is good vs their discard and Lilianas, too.

That's my brief thoughts on matchups for this thing. I will note, in closing, that a lot of these matchups will likely improve as the deck gets refined and tuned.

So yeah. Two hours of typing later, there's my thoughts on the colorless version.

If you scrolled past all of that, I hate you, but here's the TL;DR: Gobs of potential, currently unrefined.

Thanks for the writeup! crazy detailed and love the idea of this list. nice work!

@Arianrhod

Some debate about chooses:
Viscera Seer - I think it's garbage compared to Crop Rotation which gives you access to functional lands which one is Phyrexian Tower.

1 Oracle of Mul Daya - anything which ramp you for one more land is mostly enough to cast Titan, it's a waste of slot, but try it yourself.

2 Obstinate Baloth - not sure why Baloths are MD - it's useful only vs Discard, you don't have enough clock to end game enough fast vs Combo, I would rather more focus on ramp which would give you speed.

2 Thragtusk - 1 is fairly enough I would rather bump Titans count which ramps, open way to Emrakul loop you and give life if needed.


3 Read the Bones - that's interesting but I found I have no time to pure card advantage spells, most time you use all your mana to ramp, or removal - but it's interesting approach. Anyway not running 4 Green Sun's Zenith is wrong.


4 Living Wish - that's very interesting one it opens a lot of options, but before you jam 4 Wishes propose SB - it's really tiny.

I think with more focusing on ending game bombs (Titans) like titans is better then some narrow creatures which mostly get removal. I also get surprised you didnt fit Abrupt Decay which is very good answer vs early threads.

I agree to compare Nic feat 8Post to Scapeshift version, both decks has similar aims, but one of them works on lands only and it's uncounterable.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

@Arianrhod

Some debate about chooses:
Viscera Seer - I think it's garbage compared to Crop Rotation which gives you access to functional lands which one is Phyrexian Tower.

1 Oracle of Mul Daya - anything which ramp you for one more land is mostly enough to cast Titan, it's a waste of slot, but try it yourself.

2 Obstinate Baloth - not sure why Baloths are MD - it's useful only vs Discard, you don't have enough clock to end game enough fast vs Combo, I would rather more focus on ramp which would give you speed.

2 Thragtusk - 1 is fairly enough I would rather bump Titans count which ramps, open way to Emrakul loop you and give life if needed.


3 Read the Bones - that's interesting but I found I have no time to pure card advantage spells, most time you use all your mana to ramp, or removal - but it's interesting approach. Anyway not running 4 Green Sun's Zenith is wrong.


4 Living Wish - that's very interesting one it opens a lot of options, but before you jam 4 Wishes propose SB - it's really tiny.

I think with more focusing on ending game bombs (Titans) like titans is better then some narrow creatures which mostly get removal. I also get surprised you didnt fit Abrupt Decay which is very good answer vs early threads.

I agree to compare Nic feat 8Post to Scapeshift version, both decks has similar aims, but one of them works on lands only and it's uncounterable.

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The Viscera Seer is to Wish for, not anything on its own rights at all. It's just a way to make Living Wish into a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer.

The Baloths and Thrags are to help stabilize the midgame. It might be that just flat ignoring the midgame is more correct -- just racing into Primeval/Wurmcoil/space monsters...but I've been disappointed by that approach in the past just due to situations where your ramp is either disrupted or you just don't hit any of it. I still want to be able to play a fair...well, "nic fit fair," game of magic while simultaneously slowing building to crescendo.

Oracle, as noted, is experimental and may very well get removed.

4th Zenith is probably correct as the deck moved more green than it originally was. The very first draft, which had the maindeck Thought-Knots, didn't really want 4 Zeniths...but things have moved around enough now that it probably does. Good call on that. Read the Bones was actually fantastic for me -- I always had plenty of time / mana for it...might be a playstyle difference, or just because the deck is built differently / more midrange.

The Decays will doubtless go in (probably as a 2-of, with 1 Pulse and 1 something else) if the Living Wishes prove to not be worth it, which, without access to white, they very well might not be good enough. I do want to at least try them before declaring that to be the case, though, because if they DO work out, the upside is huge, I think. That's why the Wishes are the main question that needs asked right now...their presence, or lack thereof, determines a lot of other factors.

For a Living Wish sweeper target:

Massacre Wurm maybe? I know -2/-2 isn't amazing, but he is pretty strong and he does hilarious things against Empty the Warrens. He's the same mana as Kagemaro and less awkward if you don't have anything in hand.

Also, Crypt Rats? They're pretty B intensive though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

For a Living Wish sweeper target:

Massacre Wurm maybe? I know -2/-2 isn't amazing, but he is pretty strong and he does hilarious things against Empty the Warrens. He's the same mana as Kagemaro and less awkward if you don't have anything in hand.

Also, Crypt Rats? They're pretty B intensive though.

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That's a good one (Rats). Minister of Pain is likely the best, actually.

@Arianrhod: You so want a Meren in that list. Combined with Matter Reshaper and Eternal Witness it can provide you with so much CA and additional mana (looping Explorers). Just run one instead of a Baloth (or Thragtusk). CA engines you can Zenith for are never bad :wink:. When doing that you might also want to include a Diabolic Intent.

Building further on that: Eye of Ugin doesn't make any mana, so it doesn't help you cast anything. If you want to find your big bombs (b/c I don't think you'll be paying 7 mana to find a Matter Reshaper any time soon) you could just as well run Fierce Empath (just throw out Nissa). It allows you to find your Wurmcoil Engine, can't be Wastelanded and cracks you up when your opponent deliberately wastes spotremoval on it. That would also allow you to run another Llanowar Wastes, bringing you up to 14 initial green sources (and an additional B an C).

Maybe you can also swap a Bayou for another Llanowar Wastes.

And I'd run Courser of Kruphix over Oracle (you don't play enough lands to want Exploration after you've reached the 4-6 mana necessary to cast/GSZ through Daze Oracle, meaning Courser does the same job for less mana whilst also gaining you some life and having 4 toughness instead of 2).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

@JBone, A big question i have is what makes it about this version of NicFit that you like it beyond straight JUNK or JUND?

On what threat to include it depends on where you find that your current creatures falls short.

If your suggesting Olivia, a 5 CMC BR creature then my first shout would be is Master of Cruelties. No kidding, the card
is unfair. Deathouch + First Strike is one thing, but he puts your opponent in immediate PFire range. Even if you have to Grove one back
to your hand. BUT it is not GSZ'able.

The following has more to do with me playing junk then you playing 4c, so be warned.

When looking at your list i am actually finding myself comparing cards from both jund/junk:

Punishing Fire vs Path to Exile
Recurring vs reach

Huntmaster of the Fells vs Siege Rhino
control vs robust

Slaughter Games vs Ethersworn Cannonist
Shutting down vs slowing down

Pyroblast vs more discard/extract
Reactive vs proactive

Stormbreath Dragon vs Sigarda, Host of Herons
Haste, pro white vs GSZ'able and Hexproof/Liliana proof


There is more to this this then a summed up comparison, but i like to make things simple. KISS, is what they say in the army. The
differences are in my opinion just nuances, but nuances (or details) are often very important on actual combat. In that regard i often
like more tech in my builds. But one-offs or to much variance leads to clunkiness.
Currently i feel that the added reach of Path to Exiles and that Sigarda is THE endgame you want make Junk better against decks where
NicFit falls short, see my quote from Pettdan. Our weak spot has always been combo AND anything that gets bigger. Playing combo between
Junk and Jund is somewhat similar. Playing Teeg + Hatebears have an somewhat equal effect as grinding with discard/Liliana into Slaughter
Games. Being able to play 4 Siege Rhino, which has taken a while for me to open my eyes to, means you can consistently put pressure on
your opponent, something that i missing a bit in Jund lists, where you often start to pressure after taking full control and still need
to ping away 15 life points or more. Anyway, the big sellingpoint on junk is that Path to Exiles (a full playset) makes games against MUD,
Eldrazi, Reanimator, etc doable, while not being weaker to our regular good matchup's. Ofcourse i am now promoting my signature list,
but after weeks of tweaking and testing the list has become very streamlined. It plays very fluent. 4 VetEx+Courser+Nissa makes you ramp
like crazy, Courser+Nissa+SDT+PTruths gives you lot advantage/quality, 4 Rhino+Nissa+Sigarda+Meren punch hard, Meren+Dryad Arbor gives a
lot of maneuverability, while all removal keeps the shit clear. Somehow, while not being something new, there is a really good cohesion.
More then the variants i've played so far. Jund also has a very solid cohesion, but the overall power of the deck is lower.

btw, Liliana would fit JUND better then JUNK, but having played the Junk list for some more serious games i am actually feeling i am
missing her. I am not missing Deathrite Shaman on the other hand. I did board him in vs Miracles and Reanimator, but without DRS my
manabase development was more reliable.

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I played Junk for a longtime before switching over (living wish/SFM/rector versions of some degree). Those versions seemed to play more of a mid-range deck or combo (for Thune/Feeder).
This version (P. Rhinos) feels much more controlling and slaps your opponent upside the head with the rhinos. My elves opponent just looked miserable after a while and just decided to move on to next game.
I was one life at least 3 different times on Sunday (twice against RUG which is scary). It feels like we are the not-miracles miracles deck. That being said......I think I want a bonfire in the deck.
I think I want one more threat at 5 or above. Stormbreath fits this well but may strain the manabase a little bit more.

Note from yesterday testing vs Combo Lands R/G:

Actually best answer which is wasteproof (longterm solution, Karakas dies from wasteland or it's tapped by port), Krosan Grip proof, and punishing proof is own Thespian's Stage (running 4 crop rotation SB).

Answering which own token vs his one, is probably best to stall this route, they can't have more tokens, they can't kill it, so it's gives enough time to win. It's not permanent, Combo lands player still have an out - Karakas if they don't side it out. Most time enough to assamble Titan win.

@Arianrhod looking for feedback from Wish build, also I agree that's you more focused on midrange fair game instead bomb wins, probably best will be mix, deck which can fast unfair win, and also can play as solid midrange :-).

To those of you who play SFM: in the end how many do tou play? Which equipment?
Currently I'm running 2, because 1 is too few and I can't find space for three. I have to agree with the guy that said that the number of sfms should be lower than the number of equipments, we are no stoneblade deck but a swordsman rhino deck. Playing with batterskull (which replaces tusk) sofi AND a third equipment. I am trying to figure out if the third equipment is really necessary, currently playing sobam over sofaf because pro black is less relevant and sobam is a nightmare for control decks, pooping wolves is also nice. Sofaf is also too slow for storm so I don't wanna play it only for that mu. Your final impressions?

What about Jitte? It's cheap, and wins games against creature matchups pretty much on its own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

What about Jitte? It's cheap, and wins games against creature matchups pretty much on its own.

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We have plenty of removal already, and jitte it's more likely to die to deed (while other equipments aren't). Plus it needs to connect to bring value, while swords give an immediate boost AND protection. And I don't have any free slots left.

I don't get the appeal of SFM and equipment for Nic Fit in its entirety. You can't GSZ for SFM and your standard equipment demands just as much mana as GSZ for Rhino (and to improve your case, I'm ignoring the casting of SFM which would up the mana consumption to 7) while non of your equipments can compete with Rhino or you spend 3 turns to cast SFM, drop your equipment and equip it which is also 3 turns of not killing your opponent.

Furthermore, equipment in itself does not pose a threat. I can't count the number of times where I was piloting Elves! and chumpblocked my opponents' only creature when he sent it in wielding a Jitte. Sure, I lost some critters after combat but after that the Jitte just sat on the board with noone to carry it for several turns in a row. The same holds true for every other equipment sans Batterskull (which is even more mana intensive and is worse in combat then Siege Rhino).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I don't get the appeal of SFM and equipment for Nic Fit in its entirety. You can't GSZ for SFM and your standard equipment demands just as much mana as GSZ for Rhino (and to improve your case, I'm ignoring the casting of SFM which would up the mana consumption to 7) while non of your equipments can compete with Rhino or you spend 3 turns to cast SFM, drop your equipment and equip it which is also 3 turns of not killing your opponent.

Furthermore, equipment in itself does not pose a threat. I can't count the number of times where I was piloting Elves! and chumpblocked my opponents' only creature when he sent it in wielding a Jitte. Sure, I lost some critters after combat but after that the Jitte just sat on the board with noone to carry it for several turns in a row.

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A single example such as the elves mu doesn't demonstrate anything mate. I have yet to decide if I like the sfm better, I want this to be clear, but it really seems ingenuous to bash the build with the "mana consumption" point. Sfm is here to support rhino, not replace it, and with all the mana we have we can just cast swords from our hand; let's not forget that she eats removal like a champ, removal otherwise directed towards drs (bolt) or rhino and meren (stp). AND she gives us something proactive we can decide to do on turn 2 if we don't have the vet+ct interaction available.

This build gives us more utility and opens up new branches of decisions we can take (is this even grammatically correct?); more than anything gives inevitability: countless times I have managed to "get there" with a late game veteran/squire/Drs carrying a piece of equipment, after all the big guys have been killed/countered/discarded etc. With an equipment in play every top decked little guy becomes potentially a win con.
We DONT necessarily have to think of sfm as our "new plan", but as a tool that's beneficial to our already existing one (rhino).

Not to mention that any equipment on the field transforms any squirrel into a threat that has to be dealt with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Not to mention that any equipment on the field transforms any squirrel into a threat that has to be dealt with.

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I have just edited in this same exact statement :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

A single example such as the elves mu doesn't demonstrate anything mate.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Not to mention that any equipment on the field transforms any squirrel into a threat that has to be dealt with.

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Replace "chumpblocked with Elves!" with "I cast a random piece of spotremoval" and reread the bit.

The branches it offers you are slower and less powerful than those already available to you, so why bother?

And yes, things like how mana hungry something is are important. Otherwise we'd just be jamming 4 Emrakul & 4 Kozilek and call it a day. But hey, you're The Guy so you know this stuff, right? Things like opportunity cost are made up bullshit people use to sound interesting :wink:.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Replaces "chumpblocked with Elves!" with "I cast a random piece of spotremoval" and reread the bit.

The branches it offers you are slower and less powerful than those already available to you, so why bother?

And yes, things like how mana hungry something is are important. Otherwise we'd just be jamming 4 Emrakul & 4 Kozilek and call it a day. But hey, you're The Guy so you know this stuff, right? Things like opportunity cost are made up bullshit people use to sound interesting :wink:.

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Nice from a turn 2 play to a 15 mana dude, nice reasoning. And let's just ignore the rest of the post, why not.
I have never said to be The Guy, but if you want I may be Your guy ok?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I have never said to be The Guy, but if you want I may be Your guy ok?

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May I direct you to one of your posts on page 152, good sir?

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I will be that guy now.

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And on that same page you adressed the following concern:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Because otherwise I'd be repeating the things I have always been saying: mana efficiency - resiliency of our threats.

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So it seems that what you're suggesting is something you yourself are against. What's up with that? Some pages ago mana efficiency is a thing but as soon as it conflicts with what you're suggesting it isn't? Could you explain how that works?

What is going on here. Let's drop the d.size competetion and get back to the most play-friendly enviroment this deck usually creates.

@PFire Rhino;

Since your running a build that really pushes your manabase i might think that Primeval Titan is your best game ending bomb. When your able to land PrimeTime you can dig up more lands and go out of control from there. Multiples PFire per turn plus landing everything you draw from there on out.

As for Stormbreath Dragon... It is a monster. But you are right that it would ask to much of your manabase. A while back i played it and found that running SBD effectivly it will demand running at least 2 copies, plus you have to make room for 2 basic mountains so you can make sure you are able to land a SBD after you trigger a Veteran Explorer. And if you do so, then the question is; do you still need/want Siege Rhino?



@Stoneforge Mystic;

Following the logic about Swordsmen Rhino it makes perfect sense to go i.e. 2 SFM and 3 Equip.

As for equip, i would suggest playing Jitte, SoFaI and SoLaS. The last one due to giving your creature protection from white. This is pretty big against plow decks. Next to this, recycling creatures back from your graveyard will overload your opponent, granted your not getting hosed by RiP. And lifegain will pull you the distance.

Playing 3 equipment with CMC =< 3 means you can have added value out of Sun Titan. As a one of it shows up in your lategame where it will take over the game. As said, this will make you weaker vs gravehate, but you gotta try and play thru/around that. But running S.Titan also shouls reduce the fear of Deeding your own board.



That said, my playstyle with SFM is more to force pressure early. I was running 3 SFM plus BS/Jitte. I must add that most of it was around that time UR Treasure Cruise and Burn where all over the place, so landing a BS ASAP was often what you'd want/need. But still being able to pressure with a quick BS/Jitte can be problematic for any matchup outside of combo. If this does not win you the game, then it will provide a smooth transition to the mid-/lategame for Rhino/Sigarda to take over (especially if you still have the equipment on the board).



Playing Jitte into a trap like Elves is something to consider, but is not a reason not to run Jitte. One should know how to dodge the Quiron Range/Wirewood Symbiote tricks and Fetch into Arbor nonsense :-)

The thing i like about SFM is it's ability to pressure early, and become a threat later on. But sometimes it indeed leaves you swords swords and no creatures, or clunky openers or draws.
For now i am not playing SFM and choose a more streamlined version.


@Toxic Waste NicFit (Eldrazi)

Centering the deck more into the game ending bombs seems like the way to go. Personally i think that Fatal's original build is closest to what it should be. At least, it is a very compact build. The suggestion of Echelon to use Fierce Empath is pretty solid as it enables to dig for bombs more easy then with Eye of Ugin alone. Also PrimeTime could be run as a one-off rather then play a full set. Fatal's list also runs Karn Liberated, which is really sweet. That card is basically a better version of Liliana of the Veil. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is optional to. With those cards, do we require to run Diabolic Intent? In the long shot, with Meren and E.Witness one could loop Diabolic Intent, but i guess that's cornercase. The benefit of Fatal's list is that it doesn't actually need to run Wastes mana. And i do not think that the list becomes better with Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper and/or Warping Wail, unless maybe it focusses more on a midrange/aggro plan and drop the comboesque Emrakul finish.

SFM in Nic Fit works. Period.

I won a tourny with it.

http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=12315 (scroll to mid page)


The real question might be:

"what equipment should you play?"

Here is my reasoning:

1) If you have access to some sweeper MD (Pernicious to name it), Jitte might not be mandatory

2) If you don't have access to sweeper MD, Jitte IS mandatory.

3) From there I would always play at least Batterskull. The raw power of this equipment is too high to not play it:
- a few deck will lose to it, eventually. It has a super super endgame power.
- you CAN race goblin tokens (T2 SFM -> BSK) if you have started

4) If you don't play Jitte, I would certainly test these 2 swords before the others:
- SOFI because on paper it is a true clock + CA (and a spot removal, somehow)
- SOFAF because Nic Fit is by nature weak to combo.

And if you ask me, in a vacuum, Jitte > All.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

May I direct you to one of your posts on page 152, good sir?



And on that same page you adressed the following concern:



So it seems that what you're suggesting is something you yourself are against. What's up with that? Some pages ago mana efficiency is a thing but as soon as it conflicts with what you're suggesting it isn't? Could you explain how that works?

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You are the guy that plays edh trash like Karador and starved rusalka, and you talk about mana consumption of the best white 2 drop in the history of this game. Cool.
I agree with Bob and from now on I'll just ignore you, this is a very friendly thread and I don't think there is space for "you are The Guy" kind of drama. Good bye sir.

I agree with you Ralf, but what about a third equipment? And sobam? Have you personally tested it?

@Bob: solas I don't like, I think it's a weaker sword. Against plow we have thrun, which I now ONLY play in the equipment version. Thrun lets us have protection vs plow and lets us play stronger equipment imo.

And as usual he dodges the question with a smokescreen. GG.

Also, a one time result in a 5 round tournament with a completely different build over 14 months ago equals good in any build? Cool.

On topic: Hurray, Nic Fit. Sparkles, rainbows & unicorns. Let's hope the new set we get gives us some more goodies. Or Veteran Explorers with Dora the Explorer artwork. I would so run that shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

And as usual he dodges the question with a smokescreen. GG.

Also, a one time result in a 5 round tournament with a completely different build over 14 months ago equals good in any build? Cool.

On topic: Hurray, Nic Fit. Sparkles, rainbows & unicorns. Let's hope the new set we get gives us some more goodies. Or Veteran Explorers with Dora the Explorer artwork. I would so run that shit.

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http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php...48#post3997848

Hmmm.

Put your mouth where your money is...

Take a break. Have a cig, or whatever.
We are "all" gentleman, here.

The build in that forum also is a Birthing Pod list where the list being discussed is a "regular" list without Pod. They're still not comparable. Apples and oranges, no matter how many oranges you throw at it.

But yeah, I'm working on it. Your words apply to all builds discussed here, by the way.

I think the biggest benefit to running equips is that Nic fit is filled with creatures with meaningless bodies. 4 vet, some amount of drs, witness, and any number of gsz targets. Equips mean that those creatures need removal. Your point of point kill spells at the creature and now the equipment is worthless doesnt exactly mean anything if the bros they are shooting down are vets and witnesses and such. Those are creatures that would not normally need to be killed but with a jitte or Sofi they do.

Also, equipment was used in the context of rhino. Here it absolutely makes sense. While rhino is certainly a big body at 4/5 it is not always larger than goyf. It also is smaller than angler. Those are 2 fairly played cards.

Sfm itself also lends itself very well to the attrition nature of the deck. You are up a 1/2 while also tutoring for a specific equipment. That 1/2 can be sac fodder for therapy or a body for that equipment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I think the biggest benefit to running equips is that Nic fit is filled with creatures with meaningless bodies. 4 vet, some amount of drs, witness, and any number of gsz targets. Equips mean that those creatures need removal. Your point of point kill spells at the creature and now the equipment is worthless doesnt exactly mean anything if the bros they are shooting down are vets and witnesses and such. Those are creatures that would not normally need to be killed but with a jitte or Sofi they do.

Also, equipment was used in the context of rhino. Here it absolutely makes sense. While rhino is certainly a big body at 4/5 it is not always larger than goyf. It also is smaller than angler. Those are 2 fairly played cards.

Sfm itself also lends itself very well to the attrition nature of the deck. You are up a 1/2 while also tutoring for a specific equipment. That 1/2 can be sac fodder for therapy or a body for that equipment.

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Agreed with all of these. I think in the sfm dedicated builds, that some number of lingering souls need to be played. that card was printed to play alongside of equipment.

Don't forget that we are one of the only decks that can reliably pay 5 to equip a batterskull. 8/9 trample vigil lifelink Skillerhino. #justmagicalchristmaslandthings

But by playing sfm and molding the deck in such a way, you change from a board control deck into a weird ramp midrange deck. the value is obvious in all builds of nic fit.

Quote:

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@Toxic Waste NicFit (Eldrazi)

Centering the deck more into the game ending bombs seems like the way to go. Personally i think that Fatal's original build is closest to what it should be. At least, it is a very compact build. The suggestion of Echelon to use Fierce Empath is pretty solid as it enables to dig for bombs more easy then with Eye of Ugin alone. Also PrimeTime could be run as a one-off rather then play a full set. Fatal's list also runs Karn Liberated, which is really sweet. That card is basically a better version of Liliana of the Veil. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is optional to. With those cards, do we require to run Diabolic Intent? In the long shot, with Meren and E.Witness one could loop Diabolic Intent, but i guess that's cornercase. The benefit of Fatal's list is that it doesn't actually need to run Wastes mana. And i do not think that the list becomes better with Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper and/or Warping Wail, unless maybe it focusses more on a midrange/aggro plan and drop the comboesque Emrakul finish.

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Not sure what we want to achieve replacing one of the titans with Fierce Empath - from my point of view Titan is just better in this slot. Let's look closer on few scenerios.

Q: When we want resolve Fierce Empath ?
A: When we have enough mana for bomb which we find from it, without mana we can't cast it.

Q: What targets to find from Fierce Empath ?
A: Primeval Titan and Eldrazi, depends on available mana. Titan gives mana and option with Eye to cast Eldrazi, so in 99% it will be Titan.

Cutting target which we gonna find is just making it slower. For example:

I have mana to cast Titan, I drew Fierce Empath, so I need to wait one turn. to cast it's target. In that turn opponent can additional discard my searched Titan.

Only advantage with running Fierce Empathy is when it's additional to 4 Titans (I think it's enough really with 4 GSZ, it's virtual 4 Titans) is to dodge wasteland, which is quite nice. Let me describe scenerio:

Opponent has wasteland in hand and waiting for our Eye of Ugin, we cast Titan, its etb trigger, we found Clodpost and Eye. Opponent answer with wasteland vs Eye, but he still need to handle 6/6 Trample Titan which will gives a lot of CA, CQ and life. Let's assume that he also has swords to plowshares and kill Titan. Then we have empty board, a lot of mana and Eye of Ugin in graveyard. In this case when we draw GSZ - we already have Eternal Witness to bring back Eye from gaveyard which would be my target from GSZ, even if I would run Fierce Empath I would like to have uncounterable, repeatable way to find Eldrazi's, not just one shot which can be discarded or Stifled.

Conclusion - it's worth only if we want more Titans then 4 MD, cutting Titan to add Firce Empath is not worth, makes deck slower and more vulnerable to discard.

On the other hand I like idea of having more then 4 Titans, 4 GSZ adding Fierce Empath gives us 1 more :-) but finding spot for it will be really hard.

Fatal, it might be, but i am not fully convinced. Running 4 PrimeTime clogs up deckspace. Feels that if you go nore into the NicFit way of treathing creatures rather then the Turbo approach you might just have a smoother play. Empath turns your late game GSZ into Eldrazi. Shouldn't be to hard getting 15-20 mana on the lategame. Testing should be conclusive. I will throw together your list with the empath tweaks in paper for coming weekend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbone2016

It feels like we are the not-miracles miracles deck. That being said......I think I want a bonfire in the deck.

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This. Bonfire does feel right for the deck, except that this does not run Brainstorm/Jacestorm to put the Miracle card back. Maybe a bit to random.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

This. Bonfire does feel right for the deck, except that this does not run Brainstorm/Jacestorm to put the Miracle card back. Maybe a bit to random.

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Annnnnnnddddd we are back to 4 color Franken-Fit. Lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

Annnnnnnddddd we are back to 4 color Franken-Fit. Lol

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So?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

Annnnnnnddddd we are back to 4 color Franken-Fit. Lol

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I actually love that name, lol.

Also, getting hit by a topdeck/sandbagged Eye of Ugin is a worthwhile risk to the power it provides, I think. You can always opt to not search for the Eye if you're worried about it (or if they have a wasteland just sitting in play waiting for you). They still have to deal with the Primeval Titan and the lands its getting out of your deck. I don't think that Empath is a bad idea per se, but I do think that it suffers (as it usually does) from being a chronically 63rd card or so. It's something that we wouldn't mind, but there's just usually better options than.

From my initial results, Primeval Titan is the best card in the deck, by a lot -- but I don't think that the deck actually wants to run more than 1 copy of him...maybe one more in the board with Wishes, but the more I've thought about them, the more I've started to think that while the deck would like to have the Wishes, the space constraints (both main and side) might just be too much.

I'll cast my lot on the stoneforge discussion and reiterate that stoneforge is a very viable option to ensure your rhino is king of the board. I also still believe that playing more then a 3-4 card sfm package dilutes the rhino plan too much. I've traditionally played 1-2 sfm and always a sofi. solas and jitte switched frequently between main and side always playing more swords the squires. it's worth noting that evan with the 3 card package some percentage of the time a turn 2 stoneforge will snowball into a win with this deck vs a large percentage of the feild.

As a side note I have never placed any priority on sfm. For me its always been the thing floating three cards down with top waiting till ive cleaned the board and deployed a rhino to ensure he closes the door. I currently have 2 truths and a nightmare in these flex slots.

That being said I have little past experience and no experience in the current metagame playing a true blade varient with 3-4 sfm bskull and 1-2 sticks. I feel there are better shells then rhino to run it in if thats your game plan(i.e. pod or esper).

I think playing 2 SFM and 2 Equips, similar to Maverick, is a viable option, but you have to cut slots from somewhere, and they're already tight.

I think Junk is a very good option right now, not only because of your disruption, but the life gain on Rhino swings many midrangey games in your favour, not only the 4/5 trampling. The life gain allows you to Truth or Sylvan and not be red-lining so hard with your life total. Sigards is your go-to gameplan when you can, though. I've found Nightmare to be clunky lately, so I'm back on Intent and Meren to give them a go again.

This isn't to say Jund is bad at all, but I think you really have to lean on higher drops, which makes your builds a tad more clunky. Nothing wrong with Fires, for sure. I really like Stormbreath as a 2-of, but you're likely still having to run Thrun, and likely multiple Tusk to have the same life-gain width.

I'm not an expert on BUG or Eldrazi, so I'm not going to comment on it.

I also don't think 4C is bad, either. I'm splashing red for Slaughter Games, and you could easily splash white in Jund for Teeg/Canonist. I don't think I'd want Rhino since you have few ways to cast it, at least maindeck, and I don't really think it's a SB card either.

If I were on Jund, I'd try:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 DRS
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Thragtusk
15

3 Punishing Fires
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Top
2 Truth
2 Liliana
4 GSZ
4 Therapy
24

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
22

2 Slaughter Games
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reclamation Sage
+4 Flex


Where to fit Meren? No idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Where to fit Meren? No idea.

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-1 Tragtusk should do it.