[Deck] Merfolk

Ok, I'm paraphrasing these suggestions for simplicity (and to reinforce my understanding) if you want to add them to the primer. My apologies in advance if I accidently disrespected anyone's ideas by misinterpret them in my paraphrasing.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Overall Tips:
- bounce their Mox Diamonds after preventing Loams with Relic or something similar
-Countryside Crusher is possible double-edged sword for them. Vulnerable to slowing of mana production after Crusher is dropped
-Reilterate prevent you out with Chalice, it seems like we have good sideboard options against them, whether you're splashed or not.

White Splash
-Serenity,for mass and spot removal. Value of blowing up vials is good tradeoff. Vials outweighed by late Post Seismic Assault gameplay of serenity.

-Because of Reoccuring Wasteland threat, put 1x basic Plains into my splashed build. But what to cut, a tundra?
- Threads of Disloyalty = good

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DDK, you and nightmare are offically my whitesplash specialists. ^.^
Question: If you're white splashed and you put Serenity in post sideboard? Because you'll have to blow up your own sideboard hate as well, you'd still have to consider additonal sideboard artifact and enchantments that you would run. Do you think this would pose a problem for your Crypt, Relic, Absolute Law, Pithing Needle, or others? At what point would it still be worth it? What do you and Finn think about Chalice for the white splash, is opportunity cost greater with white selection to run this card? And what do you think of Absolute Law in this matchup?

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Originally Posted by Finn

Finn's Sideboard
1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
3 Misdirection

-If no Chalice in play, BEB for Assault and Crusher.
- Relics are good here.
-Submerge is evil when an opponent cycles a land to dredge up Loam (or fetches of course).
- Chalice is the real problem
- For the Chalice@1 problem, Need Echoing Truth (2 more in the main)

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Oh I like your build Finn, after some testing the sideboard plan is pretty effective. I know you're still testing Chalice, but if it's run in this build, it would counter the BEB and Relic. I like how echoing truth goes around this. What cards do you usually sideboard out for these cards? I find myself liking standstill against this build. And tried cycling out the cursecatchers,stifles (yeah I'm still runnign them in mono blue) and some daze postsideboard. If we anticipate the chalice. It's possible that they could sideboard it out for game two. the thread for aggro zombies suggests such on the draw: " Suggested Sideboarding: -4 Chalice of the Void (on the draw), +3 Firespout, +1 Devastating Dreams"
If you have Chalice and the only counter is a BEB in your hand, and we know they have have sideboarded in firesprouts, would you play the chalice, knowing that it counters your BEB? Do you think it's even worth running chalice against agro loam?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

No, Maelstrom Pulse gives you answers to decks that play nonland permanents, Echoing Truth gives you a possible 1 turn bandaid for your problems. Unless you play more counters than the average merfolk deck chances are you would have countered the problem permanent before it hit play because your chance of drawing into a FoW/Daze without cantrips + shuffling is small. Much smaller than the time you get to beat the problem enchantment/artifact.

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Are you saying that Maelstrom Pulses problem is statistically diminished for decks playing less counters because cantrips+shuffling gives you the possiblity of actually drawing into more counters than putting the counters into the decks themselves? And because you have little chance to beat the problem card, you won't have the counter in time?
I'm sorry I had a little trouble following this Phoenix Ignition, can you provide an example? I'm probably just trying to jump midway into the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Against Aggro Loam:
2 Back to Basics,
3 Echoing Truth,
4 Relics

Tips: Relic to Keeping their graveyard small keeps down Goyf, Terravore, and Seismic Assault win conditions.


Back to Basics shuts down their card advantage engine with Loam cycles, and can really screw them over if they didn't get a Mox Diamond. B2B is probably worse in decks that don't run Stifle since fetches give them the chance to get basics and other untapped lands, but I play Stifles. I have Kira maindeck and she shuts down their Terminates/Maelstrom Pulse, which can be quite helpful.

Relic makes Standstill better too. Land a Relic under a Standstill and you just turned the opponent's goyfs into 0/1s and you can now race them with a Cursecatcher. Honestly any card in the deck will "make your Standstills better" because that's how Standstill works.

Relic to Keeping their graveyard small keeps down Goyf, Terravore, and Seismic Assault win conditions.
Echoing Truth is really good against Countryside Crusher and helps against Chalice@1.

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The bolded information in this response is really helpful to me or something new. Thanks a lot Phoenix Ignition

Oh I have a general question for everyone, in terms of Aggro Loam sideboards, how do you choose to fight against the added boardsweepers for aggro loams post sideboard games. Does it change your gameplay styles against them?

Thanks a lot for the advice guys.

Hello.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

(Zoo)
The White splash with 8 Path to Plowshares is your best bet.

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I read this all the time. How many people who suggest this actually have played the white splash merfolk enough to keep suggesting it? There better be some pretty knowledgeable people who have tested the matchup quite a bit for this to keep being said. Personally I think at most 5 people in the whole thread have ever tested it, and at least half of those people not enough against zoo to see some actual evidence.

I would not be surprised if this was the same kind of "information" as saying that most people believed the Earth was flat in the olden days (they didn't: link).

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Originally Posted by luckme10

Are you saying that Maelstrom Pulses problem is statistically diminished for decks playing less counters because cantrips+shuffling gives you the possiblity of actually drawing into more counters than putting the counters into the decks themselves? And because you have little chance to beat the problem card, you won't have the counter in time?
I'm sorry I had a little trouble following this Phoenix Ignition, can you provide an example? I'm probably just trying to jump midway into the conversation.

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This quote was directed towards alderon saying the Echoing Truth is an answer to any deck that plays non-land permanents. I was saying that bouncing a card is not an "answer" to it in most situations. Bouncing is only good if you have a counter for the spell the 2nd time they play it, or can alpha strike in 1 turn. In merfolk chances are not good to draw into a counterspell when you need it because you don't have the same deck manipulation (brainstorm/Ponder + fetchlands) that most blue decks have. If they played a problem permanent and you need to get rid of it quick, either you would have countered it already or you are not in a good situation. Having a bounce spell is only good if you can draw into a FoW (chances are Daze's use has passed).

An example is something like Grim Lavamancer or Moat. For Grim Lavamancer you have a very high chance of losing if he hits the table (if you don't play Relic). If you bounce him you save 1-2 turns of him burning your guys, but zoo generally is okay through that. Echoing Truth can have a good purpose against Zoo, just to slow them down, but rarely is it going to win you a game. Moat, the other example, is a problem enchantment that you can bounce and swing through. The problem here is that the decks that play Moat have a lot of bombs (so you'll be needing to counter more things than you generally can), and if you can't kill them in one turn then you really need a counterspell to stop it from hitting play again. Therefore Echoing Truth really isn't an answer, for more than one turn.

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Oh I have a general question for everyone, in terms of Aggro Loam sideboards, how do you choose to fight against the added boardsweepers for aggro loams post sideboard games. Does it change your gameplay styles against them?

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Spell Pierce is generally very good against this. If they're playing firespout any Blue elemental blasts you have are worth putting in.

Originally Posted by Tacosnape
(Zoo)
The White splash with 8 Path to Plowshares is your best bet.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

I read this all the time. How many people who suggest this actually have played the white splash merfolk enough to keep suggesting it? There better be some pretty knowledgeable people who have tested the matchup quite a bit for this to keep being said. Personally I think at most 5 people in the whole thread have ever tested it, and at least half of those people not enough against zoo to see some actual evidence.

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I have been wondering the exact same. I am definitely one of those people who have tried it out, but not enough to actually be able to speak with any kind of authority. It worked okay I suppose, but in all I was not happy with the splash trade-off. Of course, that was after about 25 games or so against maybe 6 different decks. But I think Tacosnape actually does have significant experience with this.

Nightmare tested it. Quite a bit from memory.
Look up his posts in this thread and find out. I'm not sure if the search function is working all that well so I would suggest looking at around 1-2months after the release of M10 for the posts.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I think Tacosnape actually does have significant experience with this.

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What I said came off a bit wrong. I don't mean to blame Tacosnape of saying this without testing, I just want to make sure that "splash white against zoo-infested metas" doesn't become common logic without being true. I've tested the splash as well and didn't like it. I know Nightmare was playing it for a while, but he's left this thread (and maybe merfolk). Someone who suggests this please post some percentages on winning, as well as the increase in percentage that you think it helps you (the latter being nothing more than emotional response, but that's fine, I'd just like to see how much you think it helps).

I tried a different approach on the current merfs build and it showed success in the times i've used it. I've tried loading 6 stp effects before against zoo and i could say yes it provided a better MU against zoo but zoo players could still out CA = card advantage you by you via life gain which they get from stp by creating the CA by abusing sylvan library.

The build which i was using.

Lands [20]
3 wasteland
3 mutavault
4 flooded strand
1 misty rainforest
4 tundra
5 island

Creatures [18]
4 lord of atlantis
4 silvergil adept
4 merrow reejerey
2 merfolk soveriegn
2 seasinger
2 kira, the great glass spinner

Utilities [22]
4 aether vial
3 standstill
4 stifle
4 spreading seas
3 mana leak
4 force of will

SB
3 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
1 path to exile
2 cop:red
2 relic of progenitus
2 tormod'sc crypt
1 enlightened tutor
1 threads of disloyalty
1 mana leak

A tournament report with your favorite deck:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Split&p=430494

List is included in the report, tell me what you think.

I'm not too active here, but I'll stick around for some discussion now, I think!

I'm set on my monolist for Madrid but I tested some black splash a couple of days ago.

Just some fetches and Underground Sea. Opens up for Perish (Nacatl, Pridemage, Goyf) (Hierarch, RWM, Goyf) (all those elves) and Engineered Plague (little green men aka goblins, elves) in the sideboard. Pretty tech to board those in I think. Weakens the manabase a little but I feel those cards helps the zoo/goblins matchup better than 4+ swords. (I'm not very familiar with the w splash). What do you think?

Cool find with Seasinger erb. How useful has she been?

If she's working well, I'd suggest paying Tidal Warrior as a 2 of, and perhaps Aquetect's Will over Seas. Tidal Warrior is a card I run 2 of in the main anyways as he is another 1-drop merfolk for Reej engine shenanigans, as well as being a cheap Jitte carrier, and he also plays into the Wasteland mana disruption theme. Aquetect's Will is slightly riskier than Spreading Seas, as they can kill your dude(s) in response, meaning you don't get a card, but it is half the price, and can do cool stuff with Reej.

Also, has anyone else considered Sejiri Merfolk? I know the 2-drop slow is rough (Lord of Atlantis, Silvergill, and Standstill are NOT coming out), but if you have just 1 lord then he kills Nacatls and Kird animals while remaining alive and gaining you 3... sounds good. Sure he dies to removal, but at least that removal isn't gonig to your Lords. Just make sure you don't make a block that can get you 2 for 1ed if you smell removal.

As far as the Zoo match goes, why aren't more lists running Engineered Explosives? It seems amazing against 1-drops, and can even be set at 2 for emergency double goyf pwnery. What can they do against EE at 1? Not play spells? I guess they board in Grip/Smash, which you will suspect anyways, and then you just hold E.E. in hand and use it as soon as it resolves.

I've tested both. Thoroughly. I own six decks sleeved up and ready to play in real life. Merfolk and Zoo are two of them, and I have the physical cards to change Merfolk into UW at any time.

My opinion of the white splash is basically this. You can get the Zoo matchup to somewhere in the 50/50 range, but at some expense. And I think "Splash White in Zoo-infested metas" is less reasonable than "Don't play Merfolk in Zoo-infested metas," given that there's a lot of better choices to just steamroll Zoo.

That said, while I don't play the white splash? The strength of it is there. If I were playing in a Wasteland-light meta (I don't; My metagame is so Wasteland packed it's sick) with a couple Zoo and a generally good Merfolk field otherwise? I wouldn't hesitate to throw in my Tundras and go.

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Originally Posted by T-101

Cool find with Seasinger erb.

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I don't even know what to say...

1/ Seasinger is not cool at all. It's useless and difficult to play most of the time. How can it be better than Cold-Eyed Selkie? It's only useful against island-based decks playing creatures. Check the metagame. Merfolk already destroys those MUs thanks to Lord of Atlantis.

2/ Seasinger is not a find at all. This was one of the first motivations of playing Merfolk two years ago. By this time, we played Aquitect's Will and Tidal Warrior to make it playable. Even in such a build, even before new merfolks appeared (Wake Thrasher, Cursecatcher, Merfolk Sovereign or Cold-Eyed Selkie), it was discarded because it was too situational.

I could see Seasinger as a sideboard card for the mirror... But Llawan is probably more of a blow-out anyways.

And Cold-Eyed Selkie is easily the ugliest Merfolk that people consider "viable." Not that Seasinger is that much better, but seriously: Selkie? That card blows so much it's not even funny, if you ask me.

I was playing this at the Baltimore tourney yesterday and the one card that would have won me more games than other card... Psionic Blast.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...10/legacydecks

I got top 8 day 1 at PT-San Diego with the build listed in the link above. Basic build with +2 Jace the Mind Sculptor. Interesting to try, to say the least. The meta at the PT on day 1 was extremely strange--there were only 2 Merfolk players, 3-5 Charbeltchers, 3 Enchantress, 3-5 "Land" type decks, and only 1 Zoo (plus some weird things like a English Breakfast with lots of Three Kingdoms cards, Loyal Retainer-Iona-Bant, etc...). Incidently, Haste + Horsemanship Phage is scary. Thank god for Stifle.

Unfortunately I found the only Zoo player and got burnt out very quickly. He ran an extremely creature-heavy zoo (turn 1 Steppe Lynx; Turn 2 Ape and Nacatl; Turn 3 Goyf and another Ape). Submerge and Hydroblast just weren't enough...and Pridemage decimated the Propoganda attempts.

I had to play 4 games against Moat (2 land decks and 2 enchantress). And that's where Jace really shined. I actually got to beat someone with his ultimate--usually though he just helped me get to Echo'ing Truth or lock my opponent out of drawing game-changing cards when I'm already beating face. I never did get to use his bounce ability--by turn 4 bouncing a single creature seems pretty moot.

I am abanoning Submerge in the future in favor of Hibernation. Being able to hit Prog and Enchantments, as well as bounce more than 1 Elf/Zoo-creature just seems to push this card over the edge for me. Mind you there was lots of enchantress decks out there this weekend...but its just so tempting to go "end of your turn, bounce your 10-14 enchantments...discard down to 7 please"). It also can counter exploration/manabond in 43 land (and bounce the treetop villages).

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Originally Posted by kitsunewarlock

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...10/legacydecks
Incidently, Haste + Horsemanship Phage is scary. Thank god for Stifle.

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Could you explain how this came about please? How did he get her into play?

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Originally Posted by arebennian

Could you explain how this came about please? How did he get her into play?

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Use Volrath's Shapeshifter/Wild Mongrel/Survival of the Fittest. Discard Lu Bu before damage is dealt, making the Shapeshifter Hastey and Horsemanshippy. Then swing. Post-blockers phase, discard Phage the Untouchable. I threw down a fish every turn to block Phage but eventually I ran out...I did get the Stifle the game loss effect.

Sided in Submerge and Relic and won games 2 and 3.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7685-[Deck]-Full-English-Breakfast&highlight=phage

The deck was better when Damage used the Stack.

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Originally Posted by kitsunewarlock

I had to play 4 games against Moat (2 land decks and 2 enchantress). And that's where Jace really shined. I actually got to beat someone with his ultimate--usually though he just helped me get to Echo'ing Truth or lock my opponent out of drawing game-changing cards when I'm already beating face. I never did get to use his bounce ability--by turn 4 bouncing a single creature seems pretty moot.

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So what's your final verdict on Jace? Does this paragraph mean you used his brainstorm effect to find Echoing Truth instead of using his bounce effect? Brainstorm effect only sees 1 per turn if you don't have any shuffle effects, so how well did that work out?

Does he stay in?

Also 2 Stifles looks a bit low, are you changing anything after this aside from the sideboard?

I was looking into Misdirect or Divert but honestly I don't have another tournament to go to for like 40 days and school to do...

I was looking for Truth because I wanted to bounce enchantments. The reason I did well was because there were almost no other aggro decks at the convention. Everyone ran combo/control...or at least that's what I got paired up against. And Jace really shined there as apparently every deck with white has decided to drop the cash for a Moat or two. There were lots of Tabernacles there too...I even saw one deck sporting two Tabernacles. And they can get very annoying when coupled with land destruction and port.

Jace was...ok at best. Not amazing. He shines in metas against slow decks. Like ridiculously slow combo/control decks that won't attack him for a long time. The brain storm every turn is nice (Silvergill helps here) especially since I find myself with at least 1 dead land by turn 5-6 in drawn out games. I'm thinking of maybe porting him into the sideboard or just dropping him altogether as my meta tends to play more aggro. But in a control match-up he can come out of no where and really screw a player up.

The best use for him seems to be "Brainstorm to get excess land/vial/flak out of your hand to fish for counters or creatures, depending on the situation", then next turn use the +2 to either get rid of the flak on top of your deck or, if your scared your opponent has some killer card coming up, lock out your opponent from drawing that Moat or Engineered Plague or [insert scary card here]. Of course if your brainstorming every turn, you should be

Brainstorming into Standstill is definitely my favorite. The lack of shuffle is quite annoying but the fact you can put down cards that are better later (i.e. land to play later in the game) makes up for it.

He seems pretty good with Submerge too, but I never go to see that combo go off (Submerge then the +2 ability). Too niche. He is amazing with Standstill...but most everything in the deck is.

I'm still not 100% sold on Stifle, but this was my first time using the card so I think I need more practice with it.

I used seasingers because i was using spreading seas. Spreading seas is not as bad as you think, it disrupts your opponents lands and making your loa more effective against non island users and adds cantrip. Kira was great in my build aswell. I just gave another take on the merfs.

Low curved decks like zoo has headaches against spreading seas + stifle + wasteland in my testing

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

I used seasingers because i was using spreading seas. Spreading seas is not as bad as you think, it disrupts your opponents lands and making your loa more effective against non island users and adds cantrip. Kira was great in my build aswell. I just gave another take on the merfs.

Low curved decks like zoo has headaches against spreading seas + stifle + wasteland in my testing

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If you're really sold on this strategy, I would at least split it 2-2 with Tidal Warrior. Honestly, although Tidal Warrior doesn't cantrip, I think he's going to be better in nearly all situations. They can still play instants, yes, but he's actually a creature, and if he stays on the board for a little while, he can lay down some tribal beats.

Anyhow though, I don't really put him into lists anymore, but I just thought I'd toss in my $0.02

I very much love Spreading Seas in this deck. It cantrips, it enables your LoA, it disrupts the opponent's manabase, all in one card. The fact that it's not a creature hasn't made that much of a difference to me, and I would always run it before Tidal Warrior. I have tested both and I never like to topdeck tidal warrior, whereas a SS on top isn't too bad. The only non-lord merfolk I run is Cursecatcher and that's because it's a damn good turn one play, otherwise it's all lords for me.

I played at a (very) small tournament today and went undefeated against U/W control, Dredge, and a janky homebrewed G/W deck. Spreading seas were my all-stars. I ran a basic list with Silvergills replaced by SS and 12 lords, no stifle.

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Originally Posted by dyzzy

I was playing this at the Baltimore tourney yesterday and the one card that would have won me more games than other card... Psionic Blast.

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I kind of wanted to go back to this idea for a minute. Do y'all think it's possible that Psionic Blast might actually be more flexible in the "something for the mirror match" slot in the sideboard than, for example, Llawan (the thing that most people seem to use if they want something for the mirror...)

From how I usually see the mirror match play out, it seems like four damage at instant speed would very often be enough to win it. But Psionic Blast is pretty flexible as a card to side in on any match that you expect to get down to a race. And granted, it's probably about the worst removal spell you could possibly conceive of, but it's still a removal spell. In blue.

Anyhow, I'm not totally sold on the idea or anything, I just thought I'd bring it up again for further discussion.

I know you guys don't want the idea about spreading seas and seasinger, but seasinger is also good in mirror matches and anything that runs blue. Like what sclabman had pointed out, spreading seas is not such a bad top deck where as tidal warrior mid game is just a 1/1 vanilla body, while the sea can replace itself.

Think of it this way an early mana disruption to light mana decks is sometimes enough to give you the tempo you need to create your army. We all know merfs can't go head to head with other creatures unless they have there 2-3 lords out. Without LoA they would still find it hard to bash heads with a 5/6 tarmogoyf or 6/6 nyxathid, etc.

This might be strange but if merfs is a tier 1 deck why is that it can't perform well in a aggro and control infested meta..., im a merf user for a long time but in our meta not even a single merf deck was able to go into the top 8 be it small or big tourny.

If you say that merfs have good winning percentage against island users but why do italian thresh, supreme blue, aggro bant & bant progen crushes merfs....

I don't mind the spreading seas cards, it seems decent enough to warrent testing.

Seasinger on the other hand just seems poor, regardless. Heck I'm not even sure in what situation you would want to run that over Sower of Temptation.

Although, the combo of having a non summoning sick seasinger and the untap lord would be nice to pull off to steal more than one creature, no matter how INCREDIBILY unlikely it would be.
*edit* NM, that combo doesn't even work, so yea... no idea why one would even play seasinger....

Seasinger is nice because of its ability to take creatures, then change to another creature. Imagine having a card can steal your opponents guys, use them as blockers, then take more of their guys as blockers.
However, in a deck that runs a rather thin spread of creatures to begin with, each creature has a greater marginal utility with every fewer merfolk they run. So as we take away our creatures, in turn they become more and more valuable. A spreading seas + seasinger combination require multiples of to obtain. And are even more costly as each other creature removed becomes more valuable.

Personally, I think the decks greatest vulnerability isn't that its creatures are vastly inferior to creatures in decks like bant/ supreme blue, it's they're more dependent on eachother, and thus more vulnerable, so the need to protect the key creatures are greater. For a deck that already has this vulnerability build in, making the deck more reliant on situational combinations simply doesn't aid in their protection. The point I'm trying to make is we're at a stage in this deck where we're trying to preserve our key cards. When this deck gets to the point whern the cards around it are so good that other people aren't gunning for our lords, because we're able to protect them or there's simply better cards surrounding them, then I can see seasinger as a strong option to improve our board position.

I think Aquitect's Will is probably better than Spreading Seas, for those of y'all that seem hell-bent on trying this strategy. Yes, the draw is more conditional, but it's actually a huge deal that it costs one mana less, and also, it being a Merfolk spell will randomly trigger Reejerey. Who is the fucking boss if you know what you're doing with him.

Having said that, here are a couple points: I could never see playing Seas or Aq. Will as a four-of. Because Stifle already basically does the job of mana disruption way better than these will usually. So, in my opinion, if you're using Aquitect's Will, you're probably playing it as a two of (maybe a three if you want to push it), and mostly it's there to compliment your 3-4 Stifles that you're already running.

So, basically, if you're running a more or less standard version (besides the cards that turn shit into islands), you've basically used up all the free slots between Stifle and Aq. Will. I guess it could work. It doesn't really help out the strategy that about 3 out of 5 decks in Legacy already use Islands though. And it doesn't really do much to improve the game state past a certain early point in the game.

That's basically what I think of it. I think Stifle + Wasteland is usually enough mana disruption. And if I personally wanted more, it would probably be Back to Basics or Pithing Needle in the sideboard, rather than either Spreading Sea's or Aquitect's Will in the main.

Aquitect's Will
'Target land is an Island in ADDITION to it's other types...'

As such, it's shithouse. Sea's Claim is much better, and it is shit too.




DUKE: I also never understoof why Blast isn't played. It deals with most creatures in the format* and can be aimed at the head as well. I've never seen anyone explain exactly WHY it is bad. Someone give us the heads up.
Is it simply because anything in the format that it kills costs equal to or less and as a result your spending more mana than your opponent did plus 2 life?




*Goyf 20% of the time. Mongoose, Terravore, Crusher, Progenitus, Iona, Tombstalker are all I can think of. Yeah that's alot, but it still seems reasonable.

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Originally Posted by arebennian

Aquitect's Will
'Target land is an Island in ADDITION to it's other types...'

As such, it's shithouse. Sea's Claim is much better, and it is shit too.




DUKE: I also never understoof why Blast isn't played. It deals with most creatures in the format* and can be aimed at the head as well. I've never seen anyone explain exactly WHY it is bad. Someone give us the heads up.




*Goyf 20% of the time. Terravore, Crusher, Progenitus, Iona, Tombstalker are all I can think of. Yeah that's alot, but it still seems reasonable.

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@Aquitect's Will... D'oh!! Yes, you are correct. They both suck. And Spreading Seas is probably better, which is actually pretty sad.

@Psionic Blast: Yeah. This is what I'm saying. It deals with most creatures out there, or else it can go over the head and dome the opponent.

I tend to play Merfolk pretty aggressively, so I guess Psi Blast fits my playstyle better than some folks'. But I've noticed that very frequently when I lose with this deck, it was pretty close. I think Psionic Blast could possibly turn the tide in those types of games, since it could either get rid of one of their creatures in exchange for two damage (which is probably less than any creature that would be worth killing would deal if we couldn't counter it or kill it). Or else, we can use it as blue direct damage. Which is kind of nutty just in principle.

Has anyone actually tested it out since forever ago?

Would you run Psionic Blast over ETruth? How many would you run?

I remember Psi Blast getting shafted back (it was discussed back at the Salvation forum). Although the meta back then was way different than what it is now.

When I made my comment about Psi Blast, I was thinking specifically of two games I played that day.
1) Thopter combo. While this is a corner case, I got him down to 4 before he dropped a Moat. Never found the Echoing Truth to bounce it and Psi Blast would've won the game.
2) Zoo. Of course Zoo. Just needed one more bounce/removal to stay alive. (Although I would have put myself in almost burn range.)

I definitely wouldn't replace E. Truth with Psi Blast. I'd run it alongside it. Most likely, I would replace my Submerges in the board with Psi Blast if anything.

On the topic of replacing Submerge, has anyone thought about running Permafrost Trap in that spot? I wonder, what would be better against Zoo: Submerge, Psi Blast, or Permafrost Trap...

What about Submerge don't you like exactly?

Permafrost Trap seems pretty bad to me. It sucks that you can't just, you know, play it when you want to play it, especially since they're probably not playing out creatures before their attack anyway.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

My only problem with Llawan is that I never run enough in the sideboard to make use of her. I always ran 2 and would just never hit either of them the whole time, and after 4 tournament mirror matches without ever seeing one I decided to just drop them. It's a ridiculously good card if the opponent didn't start with a vial out, and even if they did it is still a huge tempo swing. Especially if they bumped vial up to 3, then they are just stuck with their 3 drops.

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Don't you run 2 Kira maindeck? Two of anything has the same chance of being drawn..

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Originally Posted by AcidFiend

What about Submerge don't you like exactly?

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Nothing, I haven't played with it enough to say anything. I just thought actual removal might be better.

Although I did Submerge my own LoA against Bant once to save him from StP.

Permafrost Trap is probably bad though. It just seems like it would slow them down better when it actually works though.

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Originally Posted by AcidFiend

Don't you run 2 Kira maindeck? Two of anything has the same chance of being drawn..

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I don't understand what warrants the trollish post like this. Obviously I know the percentage of drawing 2 of one card is the same as 2 of the other card. 2 is not enough to consistently hit her, and if the opponent hits the cards they board against you (Propaganda, Llawan, Jitte, even Wake Thrasher or Selkie sometimes) without you seeing the cards you boarded against them you lose without being extremely lucky. Having 2 of the card for the mirror match was not enough to break the parity of the mirror match, and if the opponent randomly had 3 Jittes and 2 Selkies sideboard I was screwed.

Kira on the other hand does not need to be drawn to win, never wants to be drawn in multiples, and does a fine job of being a 2-of, as does Echoing Truth because in long drawn out games you might have the time to wait for a bounce spell (and don't want to draw more than one).


Permafrost Trap is garbage. Submerge kills creatures if the opponent uses fetchlands, granted not right away, or at the very least loses them a turn of swinging with that creature and their next draw. It's a huge tempo boost and if you're ever lucky enough to chain submerges it buys you a ton of time. Oh and permafrost trap costs 4 if the if clause doesn't work, which is so bad it hurts. Submerge's alternate cost is incredibly easy to use.

Psionic blast costs 3. Our curve ends at 3 and is generally pretty heavy on 3 costing cards. It's ability is relevant as it takes out problem creatures in quite a few matchups, but hurting yourself and doing 4 damage for :2::u: is really pushing the boundaries of playable. I haven't tested it but I'm rather certain it's not going to be a great card. Would love to be proved wrong though, running burn would be a lot of fun.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Having 2 of the card for the mirror match was not enough to break the parity of the mirror match, and if the opponent randomly had 3 Jittes and 2 Selkies sideboard I was screwed.

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Fair enough - does this mean you've opted to spend more than 2 slots in the side for the mirror, or have instead focused on SB'ing for other decks?

Anyways on another topic, how bad is a resolved Jitte against us (by any aggro deck, not just Merfolk mirrors)? Assume you're running 10-12 Lords. I'm sure we've all read tournament reports where the writer has lost games solely due to Jitte. I understand Kira goes a way to slowing an opponents Jitte down, but if local meta was 10%-15% deck which packed Jitte in some form would you: a) not be worried, just counter/fight through it (b) pack your own Jittes to win with/blow theirs up (c) change decks.

Maybe I'm just fearing unnecessarily.

In my exprience in playing merfs, a resolved jitte is almost a win for your opponent. Especially if you can't block the creature whos holding it or have superior combat ability like 1st strike.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

I don't understand what warrants the trollish post like this. Obviously I know the percentage of drawing 2 of one card is the same as 2 of the other card. 2 is not enough to consistently hit her, and if the opponent hits the cards they board against you (Propaganda, Llawan, Jitte, even Wake Thrasher or Selkie sometimes) without you seeing the cards you boarded against them you lose without being extremely lucky. Having 2 of the card for the mirror match was not enough to break the parity of the mirror match, and if the opponent randomly had 3 Jittes and 2 Selkies sideboard I was screwed.

Kira on the other hand does not need to be drawn to win, never wants to be drawn in multiples, and does a fine job of being a 2-of, as does Echoing Truth because in long drawn out games you might have the time to wait for a bounce spell (and don't want to draw more than one).


Permafrost Trap is garbage. Submerge kills creatures if the opponent uses fetchlands, granted not right away, or at the very least loses them a turn of swinging with that creature and their next draw. It's a huge tempo boost and if you're ever lucky enough to chain submerges it buys you a ton of time. Oh and permafrost trap costs 4 if the if clause doesn't work, which is so bad it hurts. Submerge's alternate cost is incredibly easy to use.

Psionic blast costs 3. Our curve ends at 3 and is generally pretty heavy on 3 costing cards. It's ability is relevant as it takes out problem creatures in quite a few matchups, but hurting yourself and doing 4 damage for :2::u: is really pushing the boundaries of playable. I haven't tested it but I'm rather certain it's not going to be a great card. Would love to be proved wrong though, running burn would be a lot of fun.

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snip---frogboy

In fact, 1 has the most purpose, by the property of diminishing returns. What matters isn't how much total % increase you get, but the marginal bang for your buck, and the first llawan obviously increases your chance to draw a llawan by more than any other llawan. This and other reasons already mentioned demonstrate your reasoning is flawed.

EDIT: I should say *if you care about winning* then what matters is your marginal utility increase. Why? Because the way decision-making works is you decide if one card at a time. There's no reason to restrain yourself to making decisions, say, 4 cards at a time. To build a deck, you maximize utility 75 times. The only reason it "feels like" synergies have to be taken into account is because that's reflected in utility. I mean, I'll admit that the "75 times" comment is approximate. I'm not a game theorist, but I am a math major and I think I just realized that it might be order dependent. For instance, it's possible to choose the wrong card to be the first utility maximizer, only to have that lead to massive gains relative to the "maximize at every step" plan. But this is bickering among reasonable strategies. If you care to win, you should pick something that at least resembles a marginal utility maximizing plan.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Psionic blast costs 3. Our curve ends at 3 and is generally pretty heavy on 3 costing cards. It's ability is relevant as it takes out problem creatures in quite a few matchups, but hurting yourself and doing 4 damage for :2::u: is really pushing the boundaries of playable. I haven't tested it but I'm rather certain it's not going to be a great card. Would love to be proved wrong though, running burn would be a lot of fun.

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I completely plan to try it out at Richmond this Sunday. Oh shit giving away my super secret tech!