[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I was just saying the singleton trap in the board can sometimes end games with cunning wish and then removing there whole GY. like they dredge then play then you remove the entire yard right after, seems strong and just having that option is always nice game 1.

Also in Austin from what I've seen there's only two people here that ever play combo, me and my friend and I've recently given up the arch type since everyone loves counter top & force of will here. Then again everyone I know seems to own the entire card pool for legacy and could just play whatever the hell they want :/...

Feel free to step by battleforge games(http://battleforgegames.com/) at 7 PM btw after the PT for our weekly legacy, if your with Drew hes been there a couple of times.

That's awesome. I am buddies with Drew at Asgards. We'll see if we can hit a Legacy weekend there. I see that it's on a Friday, which clashes with the PT Legacy event. Maybe a Saturday/Sunday or late at night would be good? I'll probably end up doing 2 Extirpates and 1 Trap in the SB and board in the Extirpates and leave Trap in the SB.

Anyway, thanks for the insight on Austin's meta. I know the last time at Waco, there were many decks, and I remember seeing one dreadstill.

I think I'll stick with the 2 decrees and find a slot for the single Path in the MD. I'm already at a low 17 blue count for my deck so I can't really cut anything much except for Decrees or the 4th Goyf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

I think 3 Path to Exile is pretty crucial in the SB for Goblins (and aggro in general, all agree?), as increasing your chances of drawing a 1cc removal spell to answer a Lackey is huge if you can't Force (or are holding Force back for something else). How was running 4 Plague? I think 3 was an okay number for me. The last time I ran Konsultant's 61, I played at a shop my friends and I go to br/tri-weekly.

Started 1-2, losing to Mono-Red Goblins in g3 (Elspeth final'ed 1/1 Soldiers staring down a horde of goblins, and then a SGC hits the board. Next card was FoW. :mad: ). I ask about the Plagues because that's the game where I had 3 and didn't see any. I didn't let Lackey get damage in, however, with StP/PtE/EE.

I also lost to Doomsday combo, which brings me to your Chants in the SB. I am thinking about trying those out against Combo the next time we play. Can always get the guy to go below 10 with Factories/DoJ, just not anymore. Could be good as a response to their own Chants. I wound up ending that night 1-3, scooping to my friend with Enchantress so he could play in T4. That said, we still played it out, and to comment on what you said: from playing against my friend and looking at most lists, I see what? 2? 3 Replenishes? If you save your counters for Replenishes, City of Solitude, and let EE take care of the 2cc cards like Argothian Enchantress, Sterling Grove (gives shroud... :rolleyes:), you should be in good shape. I'm not saying it was favorable, but I think I had pretty good board position the whole time through. Postboard, -4 StP -3 Standstill, +2 Spell Snare +3 Negate +2 Relic of Progenitus suited the deck a lot better.

<Took out the part of the GY, add later> I will say though, I think you need +1 CoW, and take out the Ajani's. I haven't played with them in a long time.

The SB I ran that night was:

Code:

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2 Spell Snare
3 Negate
3 EP
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile

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Pretty generic, I have yet to try out Preacher against Merfolk (reasons (1) I've been ripped on MOTL for trying to get them, and (2) I haven't seen Merfolk in a while) though.

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Engineered plague: Since there is a lot of tribal in my area I think 4 is warranted. I won my games on double plague (1 is not very useful). So I'd recommend 4 because eventually you want double plague to lock them out of the game. Path is useful against lackey but doesn't solve the problem that you are eventually outdrawn (ringleader, matron,...) by them.

Chant is a very cheap anti combo card which can be useful against other decks as well (I used it against enchantress to time walk them).

Extirpate is in because it is (or can be) both an answer to gy dependant decks (intuition control, loam variants, recurring decks) and provides additional hate against combo (fetch-tendrils no longer has acces to burning wish thus a well timed extirpate can seal the game.

I feel I need 5 anti-combo slots and those fit nicely.

Enchantress. I played quite a few times against the deck and felt that although the games are very long the advantage lies with enchantress. In the past I always tried to stop the engine by keeping enchantress and enchantress like effects off the table. This was VERY unsuccesful. This time my main targets were karmic justice, replenish, words of war, hoofprints of the stag and city of solitude. In a very long game 1 I managed to counter six of such spells and maybe vindicated another. In other words I was very lucky to take game 1 but I stand by the strategy for now. Game 2 I had more and more effective tools at my disposal, but it was very close again. Explosives is a very circumstancial answer that has too many loopholes (enchantress is at 2 while presence is at 3, with active karmic justice it becomes even worse...)
The only sure way of beating the deck is getting elspeth's ultimate and lock the game out with disk. I won that 2nd game by quite litteraly decking my opponent.

Ajani definetly deserves some credit, since it helps you stabilise against burn or decks packing some burn. At the very least it gets 5 damage aimed at its head which is just as well. (and you still gained 2 live).
Sometimes the threat of an avatar token can disrupt your opponent's strategies as well (thus giving you more time).

I personally never miss wish all that much. It's too mana intensive and takes up a lot of SB space. The fact that it's blue is another con (being vulnerable to red blasts etc).

On the very hot debate of CB or not it is my opinion that for the same reason that counterbalance doesn't work AGAINST you, it will not work FOR you. Assuming that you are running a version like mine (well maybe not quite 'mine') with CC ranging from 1-5. I think it would be very difficult to consistently have the right cards on top of your library to disrupt your opponent. It would become mana intensive and it also obliges you to run SDT which I find not that useful in landstill.

Crucible of Worlds came in the place of Liliana Vess which was too difficult to cast for me. It's a very flexible slot that allows you to have an out against recurring wasteland among other things. Depending on the shifts of the metagame I can see this slot change from time to time. It also allows you to set-up a wastelock of your own in some situations. Probably I would run something extra to disrupt tribal next tournament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

<Snip about EPlague>

Chant is a very cheap anti combo card which can be useful against other decks as well (I used it against enchantress to time walk them).

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Gotcha on the EPlague. I can agree with what you're saying about Chant, it's annoying as piss to get Chanted about 4 times and watch them go off. Currently, I'm afraid it's too narrow to warrant 2-3 slots in the SB for (even if you can use it against Enchantress, etc, for a non-optimal effect). I have a tourney to play on the 25th, and I'm trying to design the best SB I can. The one thing I wonder is the GY hate I need, which brings me to...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Extirpate is in because it is (or can be) both an answer to gy dependant decks (intuition control, loam variants, recurring decks) and provides additional hate against combo (fetch-tendrils no longer has acces to burning wish thus a well timed extirpate can seal the game.

I feel I need 5 anti-combo slots and those fit nicely.

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I never liked Extirpate, but I know its potential. Might give it another shot for an unprepared meta, but I know running 0 Wish --> how many times am I gonna see it? Gah. I hate Loam. So much :mad: Hard to deal with that matchup, I think my brain just decides to bitch out and before I know it, it's 0-2 already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Enchantress. I played quite a few times against the deck and felt that although the games are very long the advantage lies with enchantress. In the past I always tried to stop the engine by keeping enchantress and enchantress like effects off the table. This was VERY unsuccesful. This time my main targets were karmic justice, replenish, words of war, hoofprints of the stag and city of solitude. In a very long game 1 I managed to counter six of such spells and maybe vindicated another. In other words I was very lucky to take game 1 but I stand by the strategy for now. Game 2 I had more and more effective tools at my disposal, but it was very close again. Explosives is a very circumstancial answer that has too many loopholes (enchantress is at 2 while presence is at 3, with active karmic justice it becomes even worse...)
The only sure way of beating the deck is getting elspeth's ultimate and lock the game out with disk. I won that 2nd game by quite litteraly decking my opponent.

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That last part you said I definitely agree with. Elspeth gives this deck the inevitability, and when you fend off annoying shit like O-Rings, getting Disk online is great. I haven't seen a Hoofprints in a while in one of those lists... hmm. Post-board is definitely better, I don't really consider cards like Words of War and Hoofprints must-counters, though. Just the rest of that list. Gaining 2 more blue cards to pitch to FoW + using Relics to keep Replenishes at bay also helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

<Snip about Ajani>

I personally never miss wish all that much. It's too mana intensive and takes up a lot of SB space. The fact that it's blue is another con (being vulnerable to red blasts etc).

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I guess so with Ajani, I started cutting the unimportant Planeswalkers, because they get their faces beat in (Jace + Ajani quit hanging out after a while). I don't miss Wish at all, actually. It was fine when I ran the Top-version with CW, but meh. I like Konsultant's 61 a little better. On a random note, I do like 3x FoF (speaking of the curve), though. Pitch one early to FoW, use the rest in the mid-late game. Been doing great for me. I actually like going FoF a little better, the old list when I had to side out Standstills, I always felt a little bare in the draw department.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

On the very hot debate of CB or not it is my opinion that for the same reason that counterbalance doesn't work AGAINST you, it will not work FOR you. Assuming that you are running a version like mine (well maybe not quite 'mine') with CC ranging from 1-5. I think it would be very difficult to consistently have the right cards on top of your library to disrupt your opponent. It would become mana intensive and it also obliges you to run SDT which I find not that useful in landstill.

<Snip about Crucible of Worlds>

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SDT is a wonderful card in Landstill, my only bitching that comes with it is the whole repitition deal. When I get 2+ SDT either in play and/or in my hand, they were "sort-of" a dead card. Still useful, but you wanted to shuffle them out of the way so you could dig more, etc. When I tested SDT + CB, I thought it was pretty good, just not my style. Threw CB's in the SB randomly at a weekly tourney, definitely saved my hide against Belcher at the v er least. :tongue: No comment on CoW in LS, it's a great card.

A couple of questions have been asked about why I run counterbalance in the side.

Answer

The idea behind it is consistency. in these matchups you side in

+4 cb
+1 reb
+1 tutor
(+1 pate against tes and ant. If they tutor for nauseam you pate m.tutor on their upkeep forcing them to shuffle their library nullifying that win route and saving you additional time to draw a relivent answer. It usually buys you atleast two turns.)

4 ep is universally good against the likes of ichorid, tribal, and even belcher if your feeling like siding it in against wrath and the like.

@Mossivo

Thanks for the link. I see where you are coming from now. I try following the thread as best as I can but a kind reminder is always useful. Although I won't test it myself (because landstill is barely represented in my meta) I'll keep it in mind for when the meta shifts enough to warrant it.

@Morbid

I had my doubts on chant as well but a good ANT player will always disrupt you prior to setting up the kill. Which means that if you have counterspell and negate you'll need four mana to counter twice which is a lot. I also found out that having a turn 1 disruption spell is crucial as well.
Something is didn't get to test is chanting after they resolved a ad nauseam. The objective would be to get the back to 7 cards and hopefully hold them off from there, which should be easier since they are already at low life most probably and you know what they have in their hand.


In the meanwhile I'm considering humility again. The time that everybody packed 4 krosan grip in their side has passed (in my impression) and that opens up some possibilities I guess.
Should I run humility again it would possibly mean that I would play 3 plague instead of 4 (they essentially fulfil the same purpose and both double plague or plague + humility are a lock)

I tested against natural order + counterbalance yesterday and got a kicking. Which is odd. Games I lost were due to counterbalance followed by order. Which worried me is that none of my answers where sufficient. My opponent always seemed to have the answer at 3 or 4 on top of his library. What answers could be available?

This was going to be a secret project, but I missed my last tournament by going to work instead. Figures. :(

Anyways, here's a list that is very simple, but it's also amazing because it can trash basically the whole metagame. These very simple additions has made more impact on the deck than Black and Green ever have. I've been beating decks I have absolutely not business beating. I've been tearing up decks as if I'm on auto-pilot by playing with these cards. It's truly insanity. I've been wrecking the mirror, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Counterbalance/Top, Zoo, and many others. Especially ANT.... like... that deck just gets kicked in the balls hard against me. It's standard for Landstill to generally do well against the whole meta so effectively, but these changes have made this deck feel as if every match up I play is literally a bye. Here's what I have so far


// Mana 25
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
3 Plains
3 Island


// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Starstorm
1 Engineered Explosives (can be Price of Progress if you expect 43 land)
3 Negate
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Path to Exile

So am I fucking with you? I would love to say so too, but no I'm not. Red is fucking vital and fucking amazing. Wishing for Starstorm against Zoo? Umm... yeah? A fucking Wish is always able to fucking answer a common threat and at the same time kick ass? Oh fuck yeah! But Starstorm isn't the reason to splash Red, unfortunately. I would love to talk about REB.


To be honest, I have never had issues with my mana base. I've ran 4 Basic Lands in my deck for a long time, and it's rarely a game loss for me because of a Stifle or because of a Wasteland... no... those game losses were because of my opponents boarding in Red Elemental Blasts against me. Fucking bastards know what the fucking goods are. Luckily, I like to play fire with fire (I know, right?). By playing my own fucking REBs, I've essentially wrecked Merfolk seeing as I have extra Path to Exiles and they destroy Back to Basics, and some way to protect myself against Tempo Thresh and CounterbalanceTop. Also, REBing Ponders, BS and MTutors against combo is a huge tempo boost, as it can let you set up your mana and your counterwall.


But I will say one thing for sure though, Cunning Wish in this deck might be unnecessary. A better idea which I also fully endorse, is to replace the maindeck wishes with SDTs and pack a set of Counterbalances in the sideboard.

Giving UWR LS models a spin has become attractive ever since Ultimate Walker made its appearance.

I might have posted the build below earlier in this thread (don't remember).
Anyway here's my take on that thang:

"Insert deck name here"

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Elspeth, Knight’s Errant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant (I urge you to test this monster, Citrus)
1 Dismantling Blow (anyway some Disenchant effect/ could be EE #4, I guess)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Firespout
2 Lightning Helix
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3/4 Flooded Strand
2/3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Dustbowl
1 Academy Ruins

[61]

4 Counterbalance
1 Lightning Helix
1 Firespout
2 Jace Beleren
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismantling Blow
3 Relic of Progenitus
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@ Citrus:
CB is sooper-dooper - go for it. The only 11 problems I see are your non-blue lands ;-)

I really like Klaus' list. Not sure about the DBlow and the 2-of Firespout and Helices, but the rest of the list looks superb, down to the 4 CB in the board. My gut says:

-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Dismantling Blow
-1 ? (Shackles, 1 Jace, Snare)

+ 4 Counterbalance

But, that's me. I'll not dwell on it (since we've beaten this point to fucking death), but CB in Landstill makes its bad matches (combo, burn) decent, its meh matches fair and its good matches great. I can see Lightning Helix making the burn match better, but the other cards are pretty random.

Also, Ajani is fucking bonkers. I won a foil one a couple of weeks ago, tested him out for giggles, and yeah, nutty.

I'm going to sleeve this puppy up and see how it goes.

At first blush, the curve seems a bit slow. The curve above 2:

3: 5
4: 6
5: 1 (counting Shackles as a 5)

Edit - And Cunning Wish for Starstorm vs. Zoo? Really? You're going to spend URR5 to kill their dudes? I have a hard time seeing that as a viable play in a real game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bardo

I really like Klaus' list. Not sure about the DBlow and the 2-of Firespout and Helices, but the rest of the list looks superb, down to the 4 CB in the board. My gut says:
-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Dismantling Blow
-1 ? (Shackles, 1 Jace, Snare)

+ 4 Counterbalance

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Helixes and Firespouts (read: cheaper Wraths) obviously occupy a chunk of the creature hate slots. Of course the amount of hate is meta-dependant, but I'd crap my pants every game relying on EEs and STPs as my only removal.
I can see that the life gain aspect of Helix gets diminished by the inclusion of 4 MD CBs - and I won't go into depth on the MD CB again; just wanna point out its major flaw in non-Goyf builds: CB and Standstill, Jace, Ajani and the counter suite instantaneously become useless, once a critter actually sticks - I just wanna be on the safe side having more outs to such scenarios.
But yeah, those Helixes are debatable nonetheless.
So is D. Blow, in a way - it really is a lategame card. And it's not as good as Grip.
However, even though it may seem like a minor bonus, I've pseudo-killed my own Top actually more than once to draw those 2 kicker cards (oh wait! does it even work like that?? It's been a while and something tells me I've looked it up and figured it doesn't.. meh someone enlighten me please).
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Cheers.

If you mean that you blow your top (sweet jesus) and make it flee to the top of your deck in response to nab the two cards, I'm afraid the spell will fizzle because all of its targets will be gone the moment it tries to resolve, thus it gets countered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bardo

I really like Klaus' list. Not sure about the DBlow and the 2-of Firespout and Helices, but the rest of the list looks superb, down to the 4 CB in the board. My gut says:

-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Dismantling Blow
-1 ? (Shackles, 1 Jace, Snare)

+ 4 Counterbalance

But, that's me. I'll not dwell on it (since we've beaten this point to fucking death), but CB in Landstill makes its bad matches (combo, burn) decent, its meh matches fair and its good matches great. I can see Lightning Helix making the burn match better, but the other cards are pretty random.

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First of all, I'm glad there's basic mountain on the lists (too fucking important, without crucible). If I were to fit in CB md, I'd probably go
-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Standstill
-1 Spell Snare

And I'll make d.blow a metaslot (b. blow, firespout being the 2 contenders). Incidentally, disantling blow is a really strong card, and rarely (nearly ever) dead. And BTW, if you activate top and then destroy it in resp you draw, but if you destroy it and then switch it on top, the spell will fizzle ofc. :laugh: Blowing our own top to draw 2 saved my life twice, it's good too when you see crap and no fetches, buys some time.
I'd personally try to sneak in a forbid. I've tested it so far and liked it much, because it makes sense of the dead cards we have in some MU (e.g. firespout against combo/mirror), and is obviously too good with academy ruins.

@citrus: I'd probably go -1 plains +1 island, especially if you plan to add sb counterbalance.

I made top 8 of a 42 man event yesterday with the new list I have been working on. This list should be in the top 8 lists thread. Sorry I don't quite know how to link to another page but if somebody that does know how would do it that would be cool.

I had two losses for the day, I lost one round in the swiss to the ultimate walker list that ended up winning the event and I lost in top 8 to merfolk deck that I beat earlier that day in the swiss. I beat 40 lightning bolt burn, 2x merfolk, UWB landstill in the swiss with a loss to Ultimate Walker and an id round 6.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Edit - And Cunning Wish for Starstorm vs. Zoo? Really? You're going to spend URR5 to kill their dudes? I have a hard time seeing that as a viable play in a real game.

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It's not so much for Wishing as it is for boarding. In testing, I've wished for it a lot though. Besides that, it's not like I'm going to pay 8 mana in a single turn just to Starstorm the board. There's a reason why Cunning Wish is an Instant and why it's one of the most powerful Wishes. But also, to be a bit of a mind fuck, yeah, it is a viable play in a game. Especially post board. I board Starstorm in and the opponent will just REB it blindly when they think they have control of the board.
I've wished for it against Merfolk too. Spending 7-8 mana to wipe the board clean is awesome.

But let's get to the main point, like I said, the real deal here isn't Cunning Wish, it's Red Elemental Blast. Cunning Wish can leave. SDT has just been a better deck card in general.

@Gustha: I was just thinking that! Although, probably a little bit more "blue" heavy and still find ways to find White. Thinking -1 Plains, -1 Island, +1 Flooded Strand, +1 Volcanic Island (it's just that good).

@klaus: Counterbalance has been superb. I might even throw Firesprouts in the board too for faster decks. Right now, my SB is

2 REB
2 Pyroblast
4 Counterbalance
2 Firesprout
2 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (one in the maindeck)
1 Ajani Vengeant (also one in the maindeck)

I've cut Negates from the sideboard since I already have Counterbalance. Firesprouts are great so far.

So on Saturday I took UWb Landstill to a tournament for the first time. (Jupiter Games, Legacy for a set of revised)

Here's the List, with a mini-report to follow, any and all advice/criticism is certainly welcomed:

Lands (23)
3x Wasteland
3x Factory
1x Academy Ruins
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp

Win (5)
2x Elspeth
2x DoJ
1x Eternal Dragon

Draw (12)
2x Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x FoF

Control (20)
2x EE
2x WoG
2x Vindicate
4x StoP
4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spellsnare
60 Total

Sideboard (15)
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ajani Goldmane
1x Jace
2x Hydroblast
1x BEB
2x Relic of Prog.
1x Path
4x Meddling Mage

Report:
Round 1: G/B Rockish Control (Dark Rits/Hymns/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers, etc):

Game 1: He nails me with a bunch of discard and I lose all my counters, but I still manage to find some removal for his early beats and drop an Elspeth. Eventually he lands a Haunting Echos and pulls half of my deck into the RFG zone, and he follows it up with a Tarm. Unfortunately for him Elspeth gets to ultimate +1 loyalty, and he can't win through a wall of indestructable 1/1s backed up with a Standstill. 4/4 flying 1/1s go the distance.

Side: -2 Wog -1 Top, +2 Crucible +1 Path

Game 2: I have some brainstorm + top action to get me through the early hand disruption, eventually I just out control him and win with another Elspeth lifting a Factory.

Result: Win 2-0 (1-0)

Round 2: Ultimate Walker

Game 1: This whole game was very back and forth, Standstills helped keep me on par with his Ancestral Visions. He lands an Ajani V. and keeps my Factory tapped. I manage to dispatch the Ajani with a Vindicate, and eventually I manage to win a fight over Elspeth and get some damage going with a token. Unfortunately he manages to land a protected Elspeth to destroy my Elspeth. He then lands a Crucible and has Wastelock online with Academy Ruins back up. I Vindicate his Crucible which he lets resolve after some thought, I then drop an Academy Ruins of my own, Ledgendarying out his. All of this back and forth attempting to gain control of the game lasts for 47 Minutes. Eventually I land Eternal Dragon and bring the beats, he Wraths, I return him on my upkeep. Hold the fort for a turn with Factories, at this point I'm really close to Decking. I cast Dragon again, one more hit will end the game. I haven't see a Swords from him all game, i'm almost certain he has the answer, on my turn I swing, he attempts a swords, I counter, he counters, I counter back, he concedes. 3 more swords were in the last 6-10 cards of his deck. I had 3 cards left at the end of the game.

We SB irrelevant cards and shuffle up for game 2, but obviously time gets called before anyone dies and I win the match 1-0-1.

Result: Win 1-0-1 (2-0).

Round 3: TES, Bryant Cook

Game 1: He goes nuts turn 1 and makes 14 Goblins, I don't have Force or EE.

Side: -4 Swords, -2 WoG, -2 Standstill -2 Vindicate, +4 MM +2 Hydro +1 BEB +1 Ajani +2 Relic.

Game 2: He mulls a bunch and I end up drawing both of my left in Standstills, them and Wastelands help lock him out while I beat him with Factories.

Game 3: It's my turn to Mull to 5 and get lucky enough to top deck 2 or 3 blue producing lands in a row and land a Relic and a Meddling Mage. I start to bring the beats with a Mage and a Factory, I land Ajani and gain some life. Top ensures I have the counters when he attempts to go off.

Result: Win 2-1 (3-0)

At this point I'm feeling pretty good. I won some potentially unfavorable matchups and I just need one more win in the next two rounds to be able to Draw into the top 8.

Round 4: Ultimate Walker.. again ugh.

Game 1: I don't know what he's playing, and I keep a hand thats low on permission but high on control elements. He gets a fast Wastelock and blows me out.

Side: -2 WoG, -1 Swords, -1 Spellsnare, -1 Standstill, +2 Crucible, +2 Relic, +1 Jace.

Game 2: I net standstills into standstills and get some Crucible action of my own going. Eventually I think I manage a protected Elspeth, and I end the game with a Decree for 5 dudes when he's at 3.

Game 3: This game in a bit closer, but he eventually suspends and resolves 3x Ancestral Visions, and a top. I just can't keep up with the card Advantage.

Result: Loss 1-2 (3-1)

Oh well, I can still come back, just need to win the next round and I'll be in.

I check the next rounds pairings, fingers crossed for something non-control to play against. Imagine my disappointment when I see Geoff's (Konsultant I think) name next to mine on the sheet.

Round 5: UWb Landstill Mirror, blech.

Not much to say about this match, I'm a landstill noob and he's Geoff, I get pwned.

Loss 0-2. (3-2)

Definitely not the match up I wanted to play for a top 8 chance.


Round 6: Affinity

He tells me he left his good deck at home and was forced to play affinity D:.

There was 8 people all over 12 points so the top 8 was pretty much locked. Now we're just playing for top 16.

Game 1: He bursts out of the gates and I die.

Side: -1 Top + 1 Path.

Game 2: I get my control on and Win, killing or countering everything.

Game 3: We almost decide to Draw for shits and giggles, probably should have as it would have most likely put us both in the top 16. Oh well, we play it out, and I nearly manage to stabilize control at 1 life, I stupidly tap my Mishra's Factory for a Top activation exclaim "..damn I'm terrible at magic", and lose.

Result: Lose 1-2 (3-3)

I end up in 17th place, spend some more money in Eli's store, and head out for dinner.

So, as the Meandeck Open gets a little closer, I'm starting to think about tailoring a SB plan for this tourney. I'm trying to speculate on how many people will be trying "fun and new" stuff at the tourney versus the usual Tier X decks that will be played.

I've mentioned before that I'm running Geoff's old 61, which fits my playstyle a little better. My SB right now is:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

Code:

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2 Spell Snare
3 Negate
3 EP
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile

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And that was just a couple of weeks ago, about a week after Zendikar was released. I'm thinking about tweaking the GY hate +1-2 here, tbh. Dredge is obviously very alive, Entomb Hulk is available. I'm also thinking about running Extirpate again (:rolleyes:) in the board.

Regardless, the meta is still probably going to be close to this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=14799

What do you guys think? I'm probably going to scout + audible, depending on what I see when I arrive there in the morning.

im strongly considering the mean deck open as well morbid. ill let you know if im going give me a call sometime this week and we can discuss shit.

Here's my take on the topic:

// Lands (24)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells (37)
3 [SHM] Firespout
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
1 [EX] Forbid
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 2 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

Notes:
1. Want to find room for top#4 ot sstill#4.
2. Forbid: too much of a good card. Counterspell? Check. Not snareable? Check. Reusable? Check. Gives sense to dead cards? Check. Synergystic with ruins? Check.
3. I miss decree.
4. I'm considering a 3-2-1 split with the fetches (strand-tarn-mesa).
5. SB crucible is a open and debatable slot. relics too can be Mmages.
6. I'd play 3 elspeth if I could.
7. Enlightented tutor is becoming one of my favourit cards again. Especially good here, since we can fetch cards to cover the 1-3 curve (humility could fit the cc4 curve as well). Thoughts?

Just a side note on citrus' list. Very solid, and better supports counterbalance than mine. Its higher cc4 count makes it better against decks like stax and enchantress, for example, while I think my list has its weak points exacly in this direction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

im strongly considering the mean deck open as well morbid. ill let you know if im going give me a call sometime this week and we can discuss shit.

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Sounds sexy, I PM'ed you. There's a 50% chance I have to go home on Friday, but I'll be back in Columbus Satuday afternoon at the latest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by konsultant

I made top 8 of a 42 man event yesterday with the new list I have been working on. This list should be in the top 8 lists thread. Sorry I don't quite know how to link to another page but if somebody that does know how would do it that would be cool.

I had two losses for the day, I lost one round in the swiss to the ultimate walker list that ended up winning the event and I lost in top 8 to merfolk deck that I beat earlier that day in the swiss. I beat 40 lightning bolt burn, 2x merfolk, UWB landstill in the swiss with a loss to Ultimate Walker and an id round 6.

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I looked at your list and have a few questions.

Why only one Elspeth? I know you have never been fond of her, but isn't having 1 too random?

Do you miss disk? I really dislike it's slowness, but on the other hand I love the fact that you can blow it up in your opponent's turn or preferavly at the end of his turn (sometimes to give you enough time to build up a board position). Does this have something to do with the prevalence of Merfolk in your meta?

Why cut academy ruins? Too slow?

Why the one crucible in the side? For which match-ups?

How on earth did you win the burn match-ups? You must have drawn all you counters or something...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

I looked at your list and have a few questions.

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I'm sure I can answer these questions as well.

Quote:

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Why only one Elspeth? I know you have never been fond of her, but isn't having 1 too random?

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Diversifying win conditions. I know he likes Elspeth now, but he might go back to running two copies of her. Who knows.

Quote:

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Do you miss disk? I really dislike it's slowness, but on the other hand I love the fact that you can blow it up in your opponent's turn or preferavly at the end of his turn (sometimes to give you enough time to build up a board position). Does this have something to do with the prevalence of Merfolk in your meta?

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I think it has more to do with Disk being a bad card in general. I don't see why we went back to running if after we discussed why the card was bad in Landstill a long time ago.

Quote:

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Why cut academy ruins? Too slow?

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Not because it's slow, but because it's a colorless source.

Quote:

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Why the one crucible in the side? For which match-ups?

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Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam, mirror, Ultimate Planeswalker...

Quote:

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How on earth did you win the burn match-ups? You must have drawn all you counters or something...

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Post-board, he runs 13 Counters. I dont see why he wouldnt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

I think it has more to do with Disk being a bad card in general. I don't see why we went back to running if after we discussed why the card was bad in Landstill a long time ago.

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First of all, thanks for your answer.
I don't remember ever seeing the discussion between you and Konsultant as to why disk is bad. Or more pointedly why it seemed good at first and was cut later on.

Burn:

Ok. 13 counters should do it in your opinion. I never tested that but I think white answers are better since they can't be red blasted... But it serves it's purpose against combo as well I suppose.

@Crucible of worlds:

Like Elspeth this seems awfully random. Is this because of lack of SB space or is it only useful in the very long games?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

How on earth did you win the burn match-ups? You must have drawn all you counters or something...

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Obviously, you have never met Geoff Mother-Fucking Smelski!

Citrus Disk kicks ass. It wasnt bad in 05 and it got dropped because the meta changed and we lost mana drain. Now the meta is slow and apart from ant and tes we basicly own every other matchups with disk.

also to the guy who doesnt know. There is a reason his team is called Left Field. .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Now the meta is slow and apart from ant and tes we basicly own every other matchups with disk.

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What? Two of the most popular decks are Merfolk and Zoo, with Goblins on the rise because of Instigator. How can you call the meta slow?

Disk has usually been great for me. It just saved me in another match against Countertop.

I have to say it is interesting to see E. Dragon being used again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Obviously, you have never met Geoff Mother-Fucking Smelski!

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I've never even met the guy but +1. Eyes down for the master.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

@Crucible of worlds:
this seems awfully random. Is this because of lack of SB space or is it only useful in the very long games?

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Cruicible is useful in very long games, but it's also useful in other matchups as well. If you play against, say, tempo thresh, and you drop this bad boy after two wastes and two stifled fetches . . . well, it's a good feeling. And that happens in a lot of matchups--merfolk, loam and rock variants, plus any control-on-control matchups you care to name. However, against a lot of things--like combo or burn--it's worse than dead. This is one of those metagame call sideboard things, but personally, I love my cruicibles.

On the subject of Disk, I recently cut mine from my list because it just sucked ass most of the time so that's +1 for the 'boo for disk' camp.

I must say it felt good completely wiping stax/enchantress' board with it but who the hell plays those decks nowadays?

landstill with disk has a fair game against all of the decks you mentioned behemoth. atleast my model does. the worst of those obviously being zoo but that matchup is very winnable post board.

while u all may disagree with disk the pure fact is that it gives u inevitability in every single matchup in the format besides for tes where its sided out along with path and stills. blast can also come in depending on if its tes or ant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

I've never even met the guy but +1. Eyes down for the master.

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Geoff told me a story during GP Chicago of beating burn g1 by just willing it to be. Needless to say he won that round and his opponent cried in the bathroom for hours when Geoff told him he had no hate out of the board. True story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Citrus Disk kicks ass. It wasnt bad in 05 and it got dropped because the meta changed and we lost mana drain.

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We played Disk successfully when Mana Drain got banned. It became bad because every deck we played against, we gave those decks answers against Disk. Goblins had Disenchant and Tinkerer, Thresh had Naturalize and Pithing needles, Solidarity just won, and so on. In favor of Disk, we ran Akroma's Vengeance, which is definitely a better card. It's a lot like why Geoff doesn't play Humilities in the maindeck.

Quote:

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Now the meta is slow and apart from ant and tes we basicly own every other matchups with disk.

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To be honest, we dont own every other deck with Disk, but with Elspeth. The reason why Disk even became a decent card at all is because of Elspeth.

Could anyone explain the Geoff's singleton counterspell and fourth wrath of god in the side? If we really wanted more control in the mirror match we would side in negate first before counterspell in my oppinion. What matches would a counterspell and 3 negates be more useful than 4 negates in the side instead?
Also, isn't 4 wrath of gods just overkill? If we really wanted more sweepers for the control match why not use a singleton disk instead in the sideboard?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman

Could anyone explain the Geoff's singleton counterspell and fourth wrath of god in the side? If we really wanted more control in the mirror match we would side in negate first before counterspell in my oppinion. What matches would a counterspell and 3 negates be more useful than 4 negates in the side instead?
Also, isn't 4 wrath of gods just overkill? If we really wanted more sweepers for the control match why not use a singleton disk instead in the sideboard?

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Team Left Field perhaps. As for the Wrath instead of Disk (for Geoff at least), see some above perhaps.

Heres a question for the Wish users concerning the Mirror: What do you Extirpate in the mirror match? Their counters, E.E., or their few win cons?

name decree of justice

Since its a win condition that could give them an advantage over you more than elspeth. I've tested a lot of the mirror and multiple soldiers from decree under standstill is a lot better than an elspeth pumping out 1 creature a turn. The 5 or more 1/1s you make at the end of turn would be able overrun and kill their elspeth since elspeth can only make so many 1/1 blockers to save itself

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

On the subject of Disk, I recently cut mine from my list because it just sucked ass most of the time so that's +1 for the 'boo for disk' camp.

I must say it felt good completely wiping stax/enchantress' board with it but who the hell plays those decks nowadays?

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Haha, I'm expecting a few of said decks on the floor this Sunday. :tongue:

I don't think I want to cut Disk under any circumstances unless I scout and all I see is TES/ANT and the like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ultimoman

Team Left Field perhaps. As for the Wrath instead of Disk (for Geoff at least), see some above perhaps.

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Just to put this on the line also, Geoff cut Disk from the deck in his later builds after that whole 4 WoG, 3 Disk thing everybody else at the time was into. I used to hate Vengeance back then, and I hated Disk as well. I would've thrown in 1-2 more Day of Judgements had those been printed back then. But Elspeth is just better in general really. Really, run Elspeth. If you hit her Ultimate, she doesnt die to Vindicates or EE.

Quote:

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Heres a question for the Wish users concerning the Mirror: What do you Extirpate in the mirror match? Their counters, E.E., or their few win cons?

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It depends on the situation, your hand, your board in correlation with your opponent's board and what you read their hand as. I've won games against the mirror because I made a play of Turn 2 Wasteland on Factory, Extirpate. All I had to do from there was play under Standstill better than them.

I also won another time against the mirror by going for their Counterspells. That plan isn't so good anymore because every Landstill build has 3 Negates in the sideboard. Extirpating DoJ is a good idea. Elspeth... hardly ever resolved against me, really. Especially with a Standstill down, most good players would just let go of Elspeth. So if you have Extirpates in the deck, I say just board them in. Chances are, boarded in Extirpates will be much better than having to Wish for it. Especially if it has Split Second. My advice here is don't cast it on DoJ until Standstill breaks. Blocking their soldier tokens with your own can get you by much better than just Extirpating their DoJs anyway.

If you had to cast Wish, Wish for cards that actually answer problems. Perhaps Return to Dust or Krosan Grip for their CoWs? Maybe even Wish for card advantage like FoF which can easily get you by even better.

However, in this match up, I always board Wishes out. The only times I board them back in is when the opposing Landstill player knows that I play under Standstill better than they do, because then, I have less Standstills to deal with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman

Could anyone explain the Geoff's singleton counterspell and fourth wrath of god in the side?

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WoG is just kinda a card we board in for match ups where WoG is just a good card. I used to have 4 WoGs in the board until I started running Tsabo's Decree as a Wish target.

Counterspell is just for games where we need more of a late game in general. Sometimes he'll just board out FoWs so having Counterspell has a hard counter in place of FoW helps as well.

Quote:

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If we really wanted more control in the mirror match we would side in negate first before counterspell in my oppinion. What matches would a counterspell and 3 negates be more useful than 4 negates in the side instead?

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Against, it wont really matter, but a 4th Counterspell can definitely do a lot more than a 4th Negate.

Quote:

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Also, isn't 4 wrath of gods just overkill?

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5 WoGs would be overkill. You only need 4 reset buttons. 3 is nice, but the deck lacks library manipulation, and FoF can make 4-1 splits. So having extra WoGs in the deck helps.

Quote:

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If we really wanted more sweepers for the control match why not use a singleton disk instead in the sideboard?

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Cuz Disk is conditional because of the CIPT. I've talked to DIF about Disk before. If you're facing down multiple threats, it's definitely better to just wipe those off the board now. There are match ups where timing and resolution of WoG matters. CounterTop, Tempo Thresh, Merfolk, Zoo... same deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

..But Elspeth is just better in general really. Really, run Elspeth. If you hit her Ultimate, she doesnt die to Vindicates or EE...

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She actually dies to removal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com

-8: For the rest of the game, artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands you control are indestructible.

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So she doesn't protect her self from removal :/

Have anyone trying Hanni's build in tournaments? If so, what was your record?

1. d.i.f. hasn't touched landstill since december of last year. i know i kept close contact with him. everytime i talked with him it was always about how white thresh just wins more consistently because it runs better cards.

now i took his last list and tuned the shit out of it. tuned it so much that at gp chicago i was running over lists that didn't even involve the strategy i was attemting to remove from the populous (graveyard abuse) i also played the archtype with a much more proactive strategy then anything anyone else has been piloting that i've personally seen. throughout all of this i realized that d.i.f's theory although a solid strategy was wrong for the mid-west american meta as a whole. this is around when i started talking to geoff even though i strongly disagreed with his style of redundancy over utility. heck i even worked with geoff initially on a build with more utility. but it obviously was not in the cards.

it is only when gustah told me to run disk as a 1 of for utility and i later understould with his crazy italian ass that it was the inevitability that elspeth achieves with disk (or academy ruins) that truly just nullifies a majority of the decks in this current format. this ranges from stax to merfolk and honestly the model im current
y piloting feels like im playing more of an itf build with a better landbase and better answers to the overall format.i owe gustah and michael alot of respect when it comes to the sheer ammount of time and testing thats gone into team awesomes wish still.

also side note. pating ee is the approach i prefer. its simple and it leaves them unprotected against ur decrees.

my model may not be as redundant as geoffs but i personally feel like i have a much wider reach then his deck does. the only thing id like to see happen in my version is a highlander slot for iona/ dredge decks and im not even sure thats at all neccesary. i could easily pull 1 cb out of the board and switch it with a relic but i think thats a bad choice.

all im going to say about hanni is the dude is over in every other thread as well trying to mix decks around. check out his white splash thresh list which features such heavy hitters as elspeth and w.o.g.