All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Teluin

I generally tend to avoid this topic (and thus this thread), as I think there are several issues with the format and they rarely get talked about because of Brainstorm debates/arguments. While I am not saying I am against banning the card, I do think that we should be reminded of how the Vintage community #s dropped after Brainstorm got Restricted. Legacy is not a cheap format, and many people have invested into their one deck because of Brainstorm. I know that doesn't translate to the quality of the format, but a serious drop in player #s and interest can and does affect Wizards' support of it, which isn't exactly stellar as it is.

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I think talking about the Vintagd Apocalypse just in context of Brainstorm is a bit of an understatement as Brainstorm, Ponder, Gush, Merchant Scroll, Flash & Co all got restricted in a single announcement while MUD was already a top dog and the bannings just timewalked most decks back into the stone age with the metagame turning into a MUD vs Dredge galore for years which pissed of most players sooner or later because you had suddenly an actual diceroll-format sucking the fun out of playing with the old cards.

Having experienced this format with all the T1 bullshit of Chalice+Lodestone vs Mox+Land+Oath vs Bazaar-go-eot-bazaar-Dedge-untap-upkeep-bazaar-dredge-drawstep-dredge-win, I am on the fence about the current Legacy development with Chalice/Countertop/Emrakul everywhere causing dull games

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

BS + fetches is grossly overpowered and is especially gross at enabling super-greedy multicolor strategies (BUG and 4c shells) and decks with multiple main-hand draws duds (SnT and miracles), which are all super-greedy decks in term of deck constructions that get punished a lot less than they should be. Remove brainstorm and 4C/BUG, miracle and SnT would be much more consistently punishable or would have to run fairer manabases (in the case of 4c/BUG which run WASTELANDS ffs) or less duds/worse way to reshuffle cards in hand (miracle/SnT decks). BS being also one of the major reasons for why combo is so good being gone wouldn't be too bad.

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I'm not disputing that Brainstorm is probably much too strong, and certainly sees enough play to be worth discussing as a ban, but this seems like a strange argument against it in the context of Legacy: isn't the reason we all think standard is dumb is because it's "A Bunch of Dudes: the Attackening?"

Legacy is fun because you can play interesting, diverse strategies with a variety of powerful cards, some of which require powerful synergies. In standard, you can't do that, because it's just better to make sure every goober you draw off the top of your deck is a Siege Rhino or something similar. By contrast, in Legacy, we get to do cool things, because LED + Infernal Tutor is more than the sum of its parts. Don't get me wrong, I think Sneak and Show is super dumb, but I'm okay with it if it means we get to keep ANT/Miracles/Food Chain/Aluren/Delver Variants/whatever other cool things require you to occasionally put something back and fetch.

If you get rid of brainstorm, we're one step closer to Modern. I agree that greedy decks seem decadent sometimes, but I personally feel like they're more fun and interesting than things like, "Chalice you, TKS you, Reality Smasher you" or even worse, "I guess I lost this one because I didn't draw the right lands."

Gheizen, can I ask you what sort of meta you would like to see in Legacy?

And Ponder and Preordain are perfectly fine (although Ponder is very powerful) cards that would still be heavily played in the format, but brainstorm is more than a simple cantrip and is far more powerful than any card in the format.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Is this a joke?

We've had 70%+ meta penetration of BS for the last what, 4 years, and DRS and AD are problematic because they "homogeneize decks" at what, 60% penetration the last 6 months? You know what homogeneize deck? Ancestral recall being legal as a 4-of in this format, cause there's officially no reason to play anything else.

BS + fetches is grossly overpowered and is especially gross at enabling super-greedy multicolor strategies (BUG and 4c shells) and decks with multiple main-hand draws duds (SnT and miracles), which are all super-greedy decks in term of deck constructions that get punished a lot less than they should be. Remove brainstorm and 4C/BUG, miracle and SnT would be much more consistently punishable or would have to run fairer manabases (in the case of 4c/BUG which run WASTELANDS ffs) or less duds/worse way to reshuffle cards in hand (miracle/SnT decks). BS being also one of the major reasons for why combo is so good being gone wouldn't be too bad.

There are literally half a dozen cards that would warp the format nowhere as brainstorm does that are still banned jfc

/r

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First off, we are talking about 4 cards vs 8 cards. Second, there is plenty of reason to play other decks. Do you like loam strategies (4c and lands)? What about elves? What about mana denial / control (taxes)? Thats just mainstream. Plenty of other fringe options that don't play brainstorm. Ironically you complain about 4 color mana bases that run wasteland...can you guess what card facilitates that? THE SAME CARD I WAS TALKING ABOUT (SPOILER ALTER: Deathrite Shaman).

Your rant is borderline incoherent. Combo isn't even that good right now. Unless you are talking about BR reanimator which recently made a huge splash, and ironically is also not running brainstorm. I guess miracles jace-storming doesn't bother you, because they will still have access to the same effect even if it was banned. Blue will always run cantrips - this is neither surprising nor concerning. Things start getting concerning when blue and nonblue midrange and aggro all have the same core of 4 DRS + 4 Decay.

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Legacy is not a cheap format, and many people have invested into their one deck because of Brainstorm. I know that doesn't translate to the quality of the format, but a serious drop in player #s and interest can and does affect Wizards' support of it, which isn't exactly stellar as it is.

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Isn't that Wizard's wet dream/goal though? Kill Legacy? They could do it that way. Kill off key cards or print new ones (Leovold) that invalidate pillars of the format.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Isn't that Wizard's wet dream/goal though? Kill Legacy? They could do it that way. Kill off key cards or print new ones (Leovold) that invalidate pillars of the format.

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If you regularly wear a tinfoil hat.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Isn't that Wizard's wet dream/goal though? Kill Legacy? They could do it that way. Kill off key cards or print new ones (Leovold) that invalidate pillars of the format.

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Goblins was a "Pillar" once. Shit changes as the wheels turn. Legacy ain't dead now, as sad as I am that Goblins went away.

I remember when the most quintessential thing you would ask about a deck was how it dealt with a turn1 Goblin Lackey. Those were the days man. It really feels like "old" Legacy was just a bunch of us playing football in the park. "New" Legacy is this crazy space battle with death lasers, nuclear bombs and death stars.

And yet I still love it.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I remember when the most quintessential thing you would ask about a deck was how it dealt with a turn1 Goblin Lackey. Those were the days man. It really feels like "old" Legacy was just a bunch of us playing football in the park. "New" Legacy is this crazy space battle with death lasers, nuclear bombs and death stars.

And yet I still love it.

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At least "New Legacy" still involves a bunch of sweaty dudes.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

First off, we are talking about 4 cards vs 8 cards. Second, there is plenty of reason to play other decks. Do you like loam strategies (4c and lands)? What about elves? What about mana denial / control (taxes)? Thats just mainstream. Plenty of other fringe options that don't play brainstorm. Ironically you complain about 4 color mana bases that run wasteland...can you guess what card facilitates that? THE SAME CARD I WAS TALKING ABOUT (SPOILER ALTER: Deathrite Shaman).

Your rant is borderline incoherent. Combo isn't even that good right now. Unless you are talking about BR reanimator which recently made a huge splash, and ironically is also not running brainstorm. I guess miracles jace-storming doesn't bother you, because they will still have access to the same effect even if it was banned. Blue will always run cantrips - this is neither surprising nor concerning. Things start getting concerning when blue and nonblue midrange and aggro all have the same core of 4 DRS + 4 Decay.

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Miracle without brainstorm would surely run less miracles, and would make the deck significantly worse, while still good.

SnT would be hit the most i reckon. Miracle after that, and then combo and greedy decks.

Combo is not present right now but it's still something that push the format toward blue inevitably, as in long tourneys you can't afford to have 1-2 autoloss MUs. But that's not i'm arguing right now. We should unban first, then see if the format open up, and then, when it will probably not open up, ban BS.

Without BS in the format blue would lose a lot of relative power level (4x ancestral pretty good i heard). At that point:
- decks that already don't play blue and are playable now (elves, D&T, moon stompy are the biggest three non-blue ones i can think of) would become better by virtue of being unaffected by the ban. More elves, D&T and moon decks around.
- decks that are based in black would gain significantly from brainstorm not invalidating discard. While force would still remain the preferable way to deal with stupid random combo lists, a combination of SnT being significantly worse and discard being more effective would make non-blue deck more viable in long tournaments because most combo would be worse (except BR Reanimator)

Blue would still have by far the most consistency engines (ponder and preordain), plus the best anti-everything tools (counterbalance/top , FoW), but would lose the ability to make greedy decks play 3 color and wastelands by shuffling away any wrong or excess land and drawing fresh in their place, or the ability to invalidate discard, or to make otherwise clunky combo lists (SnT) work much more consistently or make miracle happens.

All this rant aside, i wouldn't even ban brainstorm right now. The card is ridicolously overpowered compared to a lot of other things on the list. But since i've always been of the opinion that before removing options we should add them, unban a bunch of things and see if the format get shaken a bit. Earthcraft, survival, recruiters are all safe unbans. Start from there then evaluate the format after a bit. I'm of the opinion that those unbans wouldn't change anything except for making some T2+ decks a bit better (enchantress, maverick-like lists, goblins).

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I remember when the most quintessential thing you would ask about a deck was how it dealt with a turn1 Goblin Lackey.

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There was a deck who's answer to that was Bandage. Really.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Miracle without brainstorm would surely run less miracles, and would make the deck significantly worse, while still good.

SnT would be hit the most i reckon. Miracle after that, and then combo and greedy decks..

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Miracles would be basically unplayable. Excess S&T pieces suck, but rip a show & tell/Sneak Attack and suddenly those are actual magic cards, open with a terminus and that card is a WW4 board wipe that is never going to be cast.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

Blue will always run cantrips - this is neither surprising nor concerning. Things start getting concerning when blue and nonblue midrange and aggro all have the same core of 4 DRS + 4 Decay.

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You could go further and express concerns if tempo, midrange and combo decks are BG and running 4 Decays.

I like that the format has non-blue card defying deck cores, but DRS+AD are soooo good that they caused further streamlining across the whole metagame. When did the last non-Miracles, non-D&T run Plowshares if Decay is available? When did a non-D&T deck ran SFM with success?

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

a bunch of speculation and rambling about brainstorm

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It is frankly impossible to predict exactly what the meta would shape up to if you banned brainstorm and you suggesting that you can accurately predict said outcome is foolish. I'm not interested in speculating with you on that, so, sorry I guess.

I'm not even interested in discussing a brainstorm ban in the first place. I don't have the patience right now and its unrelated to my original point.

I'm not interested in simply comparing the highest meta penetrations of brainstorm vs X, its a false equivalence.

So I'll say it again. Both blue and nonblue decks are homogenizing around the same 8 cards (DRS + Decay). This has nothing to do with all blue decks running 4x the same cantrip. Since you seem to hate the color blue so much, you should like what I am saying. Banning Deathrite would hurt blue decks more than nonblue decks. Deathrite Shaman is warping the format since any Bx deck can play it and any Gx deck can play it. And is responsible for the 4 color monstrosities that you are complaining about.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

It is frankly impossible to predict exactly what the meta would shape up to if you banned brainstorm and you suggesting that you can accurately predict said outcome is foolish. I'm not interested in speculating with you on that, so, sorry I guess.

I'm not even interested in discussing a brainstorm ban in the first place. I don't have the patience right now and its unrelated to my original point.

I'm not interested in simply comparing the highest meta penetrations of brainstorm vs X, its a false equivalence.

So I'll say it again. Both blue and nonblue decks are homogenizing around the same 8 cards (DRS + Decay). This has nothing to do with all blue decks running 4x the same cantrip. Since you seem to hate the color blue so much, you should like what I am saying. Banning Deathrite would hurt blue decks more than nonblue decks. Deathrite Shaman is warping the format since any Bx deck can play it and any Gx deck can play it. And is responsible for the 4 color monstrosities that you are complaining about.

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Wauw... It sounds so logical, yet so... Oh, I don't know, it's like saying: 'look, I know he's evil, but she asked for it. If you want to blame someone, blame her.'

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You could go further and express concerns if tempo, midrange and combo decks are BG and running 4 Decays.

I like that the format has non-blue card defying deck cores, but DRS+AD are soooo good that they caused further streamlining across the whole metagame. When did the last non-Miracles, non-D&T run Plowshares if Decay is available? When did a non-D&T deck ran SFM with success?

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Exactly. Colors don't matter when Deathrite and Decay are around, and that is lame.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I like that the format has non-blue card defying deck cores, but DRS+AD are soooo good that they caused further streamlining across the whole metagame. When did the last non-Miracles, non-D&T run Plowshares if Decay is available? When did a non-D&T deck ran SFM with success?

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I would argue that the streamlining of decks into using AD is a clear indication of a blue card defining the meta game and forcing other decks to relate to it. AD is after all an answer and not a threat; the card it's answering is what's really defining the meta. It's how I have been building decks over the last couple of years anyway and I'm all for weird decks; they just have to be able to answer one specific (blue) card. Once AD is included DS is an easy include that even helps cast the AD.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Wauw... It sounds so logical, yet so... Oh, I don't know, it's like saying: 'look, I know he's evil, but she asked for it. If you want to blame someone, blame her.'

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I have no idea what this means.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

I have no idea what this means.

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He's saying that while there is some sense to it, you're still barking up the wrong tree.

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Originally Posted by Watersaw

He's saying that while there is some sense to it, you're still barking up the wrong tree.

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Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay homogenize the format worse than brainstorm ever did.