All B/R update speculation.

So, I think fetchlands getting banned in Legacy has quite a few upsides.

1. Modern and Legacy would have better identities if fetches were banned in Legacy. You can play fetches in Modern, you cannot in Legacy. Duals are the identity of Legacy and fetches for Modern.
2. There is a more old school feel of being reliant on what your deck gives you. Yes, mana screw sucks. You are playing Legacy, it is a no holds barred event. Training wheels are off, be prepared and glory awaits you.
3. Having to decide on whether to play another color should have a non-marginal cost, unless you are already committed to 5 color lands.
4. The interactions of Legacy decks require more planning than most other formats. There is a very real cost to spending more than 15 minutes of each match shuffling, draws.

I could go on, but that is the lay of the land on my opinion.

p.s. I don't think the cost of cards should play a role in what gets banned. I own a set of 40 duals, so I admit it would not affect me.

All this talk about what to ban... At this point, whatever the outcome, it will spell doom for Legacy. I'm quiet sure that people will start to play 'Old School LIGHT', or whatever you like to call it: it's Legacy, but non-sanctioned.

Well, it seems cool to me actually, a sort of Legacy but only Old Border cards allowed or something like that :-) (not the 93/94 that excludes too much, but still with cards mostly preluding all the ugly modern digital superhero art)

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Originally Posted by rufus

Thing is, banning fetches would also cut back drastically on shuffling.

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I agree that it is "better" in a vacuum, but it also downright just kill the format in term of paper playability. It's peace via genocide. And i generally dislike fetches but seriously , if you ever wanted to ban something brainstorm is what make fetches broken in the first place. DRS a distant second.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

I agree that it is "better" in a vacuum, but it also downright just kill the format in term of paper playability. It's peace via genocide. And i generally dislike fetches but seriously , if you ever wanted to ban something brainstorm is what make fetches broken in the first place. DRS a distant second.

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You are aware that fetchlands were printed years AFTER brainstorm, so its near ridiculous to claim that "Brainstorm made Fetchlands broken".

Fetchlands made Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasue Cruise, DRS, Dig Through Time, Cabal Ritual, SDT, Tarmogoyf, Lotus Cobra, Loam and half a dozen other cards "broken" and not the other way round.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

So, I think fetchlands getting banned in Legacy has quite a few upsides.

1. Modern and Legacy would have better identities if fetches were banned in Legacy. You can play fetches in Modern, you cannot in Legacy. Duals are the identity of Legacy and fetches for Modern.
2. There is a more old school feel of being reliant on what your deck gives you. Yes, mana screw sucks. You are playing Legacy, it is a no holds barred event. Training wheels are off, be prepared and glory awaits you.
3. Having to decide on whether to play another color should have a non-marginal cost, unless you are already committed to 5 color lands.
4. The interactions of Legacy decks require more planning than most other formats. There is a very real cost to spending more than 15 minutes of each match shuffling, draws.

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I think 3 big pros of no fetches you missed are:

1) It nerfs/fixes Brainstorm and Top. Which would be great.

2) Fetches open up a lot more opportunities for cheating. Look at the people that got caught cheating a year or so ago when fetches where in standard? More fetching means more chances for people to get up to bad things when handling decks.

3) It saves a non-trivial amount of time in shuffling and cutting etc. Fetches add a loading time to paper games effectively but adding several etc shuffling/cuts per game.

I never noticed fetching to lose time or at least not at our bi-weekly LGS Legacy FNM. Most of the time, people fetch, cast something, say go and shuffle their deck while you can start your turn. Not a lot of time lost this way...

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

I never noticed fetching to lose time or at least not at our bi-weekly LGS Legacy FNM. Most of the time, people fetch, cast something, say go and shuffle their deck while you can start your turn. Not a lot of time lost this way...

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Many people are terrible about short cutting things

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Many people are terrible about short cutting things

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Tbh, in a tournament, I would have no interrest in players shortcutting that way. Putting stuff on the stack to distract the opponent, while pulling off some shenanigans with their library

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Originally Posted by Tantarus

I think 3 big pros of no fetches you missed are:

1) It nerfs/fixes Brainstorm and Top. Which would be great.

2) Fetches open up a lot more opportunities for cheating. Look at the people that got caught cheating a year or so ago when fetches where in standard? More fetching means more chances for people to get up to bad things when handling decks.

3) It saves a non-trivial amount of time in shuffling and cutting etc. Fetches add a loading time to paper games effectively but adding several etc shuffling/cuts per game.

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Trading 10 cards to fix two is a tad absurd, no mater how you slice it, and if we're going to ban cards because it opens up opportunities to cheat (and adds to the time in the round), are we to ban all tutors and shuffle effects then?

It is more the combo of everything not just any one thing, fetches make a up large % of things that cause you to shuffle and cut. And it is not just two cards, they make DRS, loam, delve cards and other things much better too.

That said they are not going to get banned so is kinda a moot point. But I think there is a solid argument for them making the game worse in many ways. Hence why they are getting reprinted in MM17 and not put back into standard.

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

I never noticed fetching to lose time or at least not at our bi-weekly LGS Legacy FNM. Most of the time, people fetch, cast something, say go and shuffle their deck while you can start your turn. Not a lot of time lost this way...

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How long do you think it takes to cast 7 Infernal Tutor, 3 Ponder and 2 Fetchlands in a single turn or two player going fetch, brainstorm, fetch, brainstorm, fetch, fetch, stifle, fetch, pyroblast, fetch, spell pierce? Especially if both players shuffle and I'm not even talking about game theoretical random shuffle requiring 7-10 manipulations.

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Originally Posted by Varal

How long do you think it takes to cast 7 Infernal Tutor, 3 Ponder and 2 Fetchlands in a single turn or two player going fetch, brainstorm, fetch, brainstorm, fetch, fetch, stifle, fetch, pyroblast, fetch, spell pierce? Especially if both players shuffle and I'm not even talking about game theoretical random shuffle requiring 7-10 manipulations.

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That's part of the game now just like how the stack is a part of the game now.

Just like how mana burn is not part of the game now.
Sounds like many here don't like the direction of legacy and sound more and more like people that want a no banlist modern format.

I have an answer, play 3Ball and Chalice. Problem solved. The flip side is you can just play Wasteland and Loam, forcing your opponents to use Fetches tactically.

Fetches in Legacy are something that has never bothered me personally. I never notice them if the player triggering it is quick. While there are indeed combinations of cards that do legitimacy cause time issues (Counterbalance, Top and Fetches or Doomsday) most of the time in my view it's players that eat time, not cards.

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Originally Posted by Fjaulnir

Well, it seems cool to me actually, a sort of Legacy but only Old Border cards allowed or something like that :-) (not the 93/94 that excludes too much, but still with cards mostly preluding all the ugly modern digital superhero art)

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+1
I think that would be a very fun format and aesthetically it would feel great.

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Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy

+1
I think that would be a very fun format and aesthetically it would feel great.

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Sign me up. No longer would Tarmogoyf obsolete every awesome creature printed before 2007.

(N.B.: I'm not calling for a ban. It's just that Tarmogoyf is my least-favorite card in all of Magic.)

Eh. Formats that have no new cards added to it get pretty old pretty quick. You basically have to freshen up the format with bans and unbans. See: 93/94. Though I do agree with your sentiment about Goyf. Things that completely obsolete other things sucks pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Eh. Formats that have no new cards added to it get pretty old pretty quick. You basically have to freshen up the format with bans and unbans.

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If a format needs an influx of new cards in order to stay interesting, it's not a good game imo. All the best games will be good forever exactly as they are.

Diplomacy hasn't changed since it's inception in the 1950s (beyond an obscure rule being reversed in the late 1990s). Titan is as good today as it was in 1982. Axis & Allies has been improved many times with new editions, but the old 1984 MB version is still a great game and would still have a strong following even if Avalon Hill (under Hasbro) had not decided to milk it with a constant stream of new editions.

If WotC pulled the plug on MTG tomorrow, I would still play Legacy as long as I have opponents to play against.

So, do we expect the ban-hammer to fall on any cards in a week?

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Originally Posted by rufus

So, do we expect the ban-hammer to fall on any cards in a week?

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I would be surprised, so no... No bans.