or nihil spellbomb instead of tormods crypt, i like the spellbomb better for the cantrip effect
Capitalization and punctuation please. Thanks. -zilla
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or nihil spellbomb instead of tormods crypt, i like the spellbomb better for the cantrip effect
Capitalization and punctuation please. Thanks. -zilla
Has anyone done serious testing with switching hymn with sinkhole to go full out against lands. Seems the format isnt a vial heavy anymore, or is it just my area?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
Sinkhole used to be a staple in the deck. It's certainly playable in the right environment. Some people like have tried a 3/3 split between Hymn and Sinkhole.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsey
Personally, I'm not a hige fan of it, because in certain games it's just a very weak card. Against Merfolk, for example, your Wastelands and Stifles are meaningless, so you have no way to bolster Sinkhole's mana denial strategy against them.
Hymn is never weak in the early game, which is the most crucial part for a tempo deck like TA. That doesn't mean it's always the correct choice, but I prefer it for that reason.
So Ive been thinking and I had a sudden epiphany...Bare with me on this. We are primarily a tempo deck so if the game goes late we will most likely lose, this much is a given. It is also well known that our disruption package is largely ineffective against aggro strategies. What I propose would not change that. Instead I propose we go "all in" so to speak with tempo. What am I getting at? Drop hymn for thoughtseize. Then, drop all other extranious stuff for 4 surgical extraction(free)/extirpate(unstoppable).
Ya thats right, full suite of 12 free counters + stifle/wasteland and thoughtseize + surgical/extirpate for a total of 28-30 pieces of disruption. Crazy? maybe, but t1 thoughtseize/stifle/wasteland + extracting can save us a huge headache against decks like landstill, blade control, etc. Yes they are dead late game, but id argue less so than hymn is as we can still hit something. They also feed tombstalker nicely.
T1 = goodbye jace, SFM, standstill/incestral recall (har har), Hivemind/SNT! Plus pesky waste/fetchlands or annoying CA engines. It also gives us a mainboard answer to dredge. Obviously it still sucks vs. aggro but what can I say so does most of our deck.
Caveat: Ive been drinking..heavily. Fucking dirty birds! I hate them...That aside I think this may be worth testing, seriously. Also with the lower curve maxing out at 2cc perhaps we could reduce our land count slightly and find a way to shoehorn in more targeted discard and more extract effects? IDK, what say you TS members?
So something like thus:
Team America (60)
Creatures 8
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
Permission 12
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
Disruption 14
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
Draw 4
4 Brainstorm
Removal 3
3 Dismember
Lands 19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
Edit- disregard previous post I'm sober now, heh sorry bout that folks.
Im playing a list with atm containing 22 lands, 2 jace, 1 sylvan library and 8 beaters (+ the rest...)
Usually i play with the library OR jace, and not both at the same time. Does anyone have any experience with this? Isnt the library almost useless when jace's brainstorm does its thang?
Also I was pondering about swapping out the library for 1 phyrexian metamorph since i think it fits the tempo role pretty good, copying a tarmogoyf or especially tombstalker..
Also, its good against progenitus and emrakul, jitte, clique, gitaxian all those things.
Typically it would be used in the SB against NO RUG, SnT, etc, but couldn't it fit in the MD? as a one of.
Hope to see some comments.
thanks,
Neff
I compare library more to Ponder than to Jace. Bigger investment than Ponder, but more value.
Jace on the other hand only comes down if we get to 4 lands and did not win yet. So he is not a part of the "original" TA plan and more of an alternate win condition or a way to turn games around.
There has been some talk about the B/R updates coming on the 20th, and all signs seem to be pointing towards a certain spell getting the hammer... -IF- mental misstep gets banned on the 20th, I think TA will remain well positioned in the metagame, perhaps even moreso. If goblins re-enters the format as a DTB, TA is probably the best blue deck against it thanks to Stifle, Daze, and Snuff Out/Dismember. Darkblast in the SB is also a house. If Countertop comes back as a control strategy, we typically crush those sort of decks. Merfolk and Zoo will always be difficult, but the matchup can be mitigated with a proper sideboard. And of course, if fast combo comes out of the woodwork again, we are THE combo slayer deck.
I'm honestly hoping for MM to be banned, first of all for format diversity, and secondly to better position my favorite deck. Opening those four slots also allows for a little more creative leeway for deck contruction -- you can fit in the 4th Daze if you haven't already, fit in a couple additional cantrips such as Predict, or additional removal or counterspells, or maybe some Vendillion Cliques.
edit: I just saw the spoiler for Delver of Secrets. It *may* be good enough to drop green entirely and run TA as purely blue/black, or consider an alternative splash color. A 3/2 flyer for 1 is not too shabby... it just opens you up to red removal. This guy can start crashing in for 3 by turn 2 while you continue disrupting your opponent with tempo cards. It does have tension as a 1-drop though -- do you hold up mana for stifle, ponder into a more relevant turn 2 play, or go all in on 'lightning bolting' your opponent every turn? The upkeep ability on the pre-transformed side can also be somewhat relevant if you have a fetchland out (to draw something else) or are playing Predict (to draw 2 for 2 and help feed early Tombstalkers). The card will need to be tested for sure.
Delver seems weak to me. If Mental Misstep is banned, and this seems likely, Zoo will probably be making a comeback. I don't like having 1/2 of my threat base die to a Grim Lavamancer activation, let alone a Lightning Bolt. This also applies to NORUG, and it is also nice when you can deal with their Goyfs outside of combat while they can't do the same.
Post MM banning this deck does seem to get better. This is especially true as I feel Zoo is actually a good matchup. Hymn is backbreaking, and more removal out of the board is very bad for them. After the prospective banning I would try a full set of the original disruption (Hymn, Daze, Stifle, Force) and then go from there, probably adding a couple of Sylvan Libraries and going up to 6 removal spells main (Explosives would be the first thing to go back in...).
Delver is weaksauce.
If MM were banned, it would be fantastic for this deck - more goblins, less and worse merfolk. Now that I'm onboard the jace train, the fact that it's easier for swords to hit our creatures isn't even that much of a concern.
Actually, those 4 new spots should probably initially be Snapcaster Mage. I think that guy could be really good in this deck. Even with Tombstalker.
Yeah, on second consideration, Delver is far too situational and doesn't provide the same benefits as Goyf (ie: being a wall against aggro decks until you can gain board advantage). It would also be a terrible topdeck, whereas I've rarely been unhappy to draw more Goyfs. And green SB options address some of the weaknesses that black/blue have on their own.
Snapcaster could work to increase threat density and reuse our spells, but it seems like the deck is mostly centered around operating on only two mana.. bringing Snaps into the mix may make the deck want to move into a more controlling direction with more lands, maybe MD Jace, etc. I'd like to test it but not sure if the deck would need some reconfiguration, a straight 1:1 replacement of MM:Snapcaster seems bad at first glance.
I for one hope nothing else gets banned and I doing see the necessity of banning anything, even SNT or brainstorm let alone mms. However if for some reason mms is banned I would consider thoughtseize main again. Hell its been looking as good as/better than hymn lately.
Re: sylvan library- I agree with catmint on counting it as a ponder but I play my libraries more like hymns #5-6, which is to say aggressively. T2 hymn can be back breaking but so can t2 library with daze backup and especially if you can win a counter war to establish it then refuel. I love library because it ups the number of must stop t2 plays in the deck.
Re: snapcaster mage- I've been considering this and it seems worthy of testing a 1-2 of only, in place of ponder most likely (unless mms is banned of course). The funny part is that mms is probably one of the better targets for scm.
One thing to note is that the U/W mystic decks are unlikely to go away with a misstep banning.
On Snapcaster mage, he seems awesome in the deck. Brainstorm, stifle, hymn, thoughtseize, ponder, dismember. These are all cards that love to be rebought. He is probably not a four off, but people have run 2 off cliques in the past, so running a few "3" drops is not out of the question, even in the very low curve version, particularly if misstep goes to make room for more slots. With misstep i find it hard to make room for him, though i should perhaps just be more agressive. He provides a much needed threat to the deck with an added value bonus.
Btw, what are your thoughts on GerryT's newest build with visions?
For me it's a Control Deck using UBg colours. It stays clearly away from tempo and tries to win with CA and card quality. This means a different strategy and a completely different way to play the deck.
It shouldn't even be mixed with TA, as Tempo and winning in a small window of time is what this deck was about. Winning by controlling the game from a point in the game and until the end of time (may it be 5 or 40 turns) it's not the same.
While I do like some of the card choices from Gerry Ts list, overall it really just feels like a halfhearted control deck. For example tarmogoyf just seems wrong and more like a shout out to the decks former roots of TA.
I think he should have just went for a full on BUg landstill (visions) shell and dropped goyf/clique for more visions, deeds, jaces and countermagic and maybe squeezed in LftL + worm harvest etc.
Tombstalker still kicks ass here and clique might actually still belong although deed doesnt play well with clique. So I guess I do like his build but I think more of an "all in" approach to control would have netted him better results than this version. Lastly I also dont like his board to much.
Caveat: as always hes a better player than I so grain of salt :)
^^I disagree. Having played Deedstill a fair amount, I can say that 'BUG Control' is a better deck for just about any given tournament. Deedstill seems to be very much a metagame specific deck. I think it is better to throw out some threats and make your opponent worry about answering them, than to play some sort of glacially-slow reactive control deck with no real clock. Sure, you blank a lot of opponent's removal, but a lot of decks only run 4-5 removal slots in the MD anyways -- Goyf gets there in ways that Jace/Mishra's Factory don't. And woe be to you if you lose game 1 playing Deedstill... have fun trying to win games 2 and 3 in 50 minutes.
Now, comparing it to TA... well I personally like classic TA better, but I could see the merit in playing BUG Control in certain metagames. There is so much overlap in card selection that its possible for a game to be played out the exact same way playing both decks, but each deck attacks certain opposing strategies better.
wcm8- I hadnt really considered the time frame so point taken. I was wondering about goyf as a meta call but I am not a deedstill player so was unsure on this. Still this seems to be quite slow without the same density of board control that deedstill has. Id like to hear GTs thoughts on this vs the more traditional TA decks he has piloted in the past.
i cannot find a link, can someone post the list or a link please?