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The problem Reanimator poses is its two-pronged attack - it can put Iona into play from grave or hand. Thus if people really want to hate it out they'll run either multiple removal or things like Karakas. Both of which don't do anything against Dredge.
Dredge isn't performing that well and Reanimator is just starting to appear on peoples radar, so I don't see dedicated SB slots going up from what it is currently anyways.
So now that Leyline of the Void is showing up en masse again, thanks to Reanimator's comeback. Do we have reached a consensus on the Enchantment Removal of our choice?
I keep stumbling upon discussion whether or not we should all get Nature's Claim now.
Wispmare still kills Leyline just as well as it always did.
I'll stick with Wispmare too, still the best option so far.
why wispmare? i cannot understand that slot. Ray of Revelation is much better. It has flashback so you can use it from your graveyard. Ok, thats no opinion if leyline is in play, but there might be other enchantments that are posible targets for ray like survival, dreamhalls, humility. You must draw wispmare to destroy one of those, but ray can be dredged in your graveyard.. Ancient grudge is better than ingot chewer, too, or isnt it?!
Sure under any other circumstances, but Leyline is the one that causes all the trouble and as you said already, flashback doesn't work with Leyline of the Void around.
Wispmare can be used from your graveyard as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritemare
I have a couple of tournaments coming up and I need to some help getting my sb set up properly. I know I am going to be seeing lots of merfolk, zoo, countertop as well as some reanimator and threshold and storm. my side board currently looks like this:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Sickening Dreams
3 Coffin Purge
2 Wispmare
Pithing Needle is good against everything, Chain of Vapor and Wispmare for leyline etc., Sickening Dreams for zoo, goblins, elves and anything looking to abuse empty the warrens, and Coffin Purge is specifically for the reanimator matches but can be useful in other matchups as well.
Any suggestions or ideas will be appreciatted.
Why Sickening Dreams instead of Firestorm? You don't run rainbow lands?Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf197
The sickening dreams are in there just because I have them, I am having trouble locating firestorms locally. I know they are not as good as the firestorms but essentially do the same thing and I figured they would be an appropriate substitute.
This is my current build for reference sake:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Dread Return
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Eternal Witness
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame Kin Zealot
I am considering removing the Eternal Witness and adding a third DR target but unsure yet what I may sub it with, also considering switching from Ichorid to Bloodghast but I am not really fond of running Undiscovered Paradise.
If you really want Bloodghast, you need to tune your manabase to support him. Which means Undiscovered Paradise and/or Dakmor Salvage needs to be on the list.
I will have to give them both a try I have tried running undiscovered paradise in other decks and I have always felt that the land loss ended up being a major issue
To all Ichorid players, I wish to turn your attention to an article published today on the starcitygames website. Ideas Unbound - Legacy Dredge by Max McCall is an interesting take on the archetype that discusses many issues that I have always viewed as problematic for this deck:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...cy_Dredge.html
The first problem that Max addresses is the maindeck. He advocates the exclusion of LED and of cool Dread Return targets (Iona, Hypnotist, FKZ, etc). He also moves towards a stable mana base courtesy of Tarnished Citadel. This last suggestion is particularly interesting. I have been using Citadel in my deck for months as a supplement to the standard City/Mine/Coliseum contingent. Many of you can likely relate to the problem of having JUST a Coliseum in hand and an uncastable discard outlet in the form of PImp or Tribe. Statistically, this happens with alarming frequency, just because most builds run only 12 lands. Max's runs a far more consistent 15. He also raises the important point that Coliseums aren't really lands. You want to use them as super Careful Study's within the first few turns, forever locking you out of Breakthroughs for X = 1, hardcasting of Grudge/Ray, circumventing Daze, and even Golgari Thug tricks. Now, Max admits that the Citadels can hurt, but hey. It's Dredge! The fastest (arguably) deck in the form should not be worried about a little damage, and this article confronts that head on.
The discussion of LED is similarly compelling. You just don't need it over a Tribe. Tribe provides consistency, Diamond provides sporadic explosiveness. Tribe feeds Return. Diamond opens you up to devastating graveyard removal if you can't get off the "combo" win. The balances clearly tip in favor of the Tribe.
And then there are the Dread Return targets. While I am in disagreement on Iona's value (she is an auto-win in various matchups), I must second Max's overall point. Dread Return targets tend to feel a bit cool. Maybe too cool, as in, Danger of Cool Things cool. Dredge operates on mathematical consistency, and the inclusion of 2-3 DR targets can severely impact this in some of your games. Quite frankly, they aren't needed. The deck is fine in its rawest incarnation (that which Max seems to present) without the cool additions.
The second problem that the article discusses is Bloodghast. His points are twofold. First, that Undiscovered Paradise makes the manabase unstable. It makes it difficult to consistently cast 2 mana spells, and can have problems in conjunction with Coliseum. It also forces you to include Dakmor Salvages, and anyone who tests this card will come to the same conclusion that I have: Dredge 2 is bad, and adding just B is even worse. Finally, Ghast lacks synergy with Bridge. While there have been many arguments that Ghast improves the control matchup and the lategame, overall it is not necessary. Dredge has a fine late game in its current incarnation, provided that an intelligent player is at its helm. Moreover, careful analysis of cards that screw with the Ichorid late game (Swords, hatred, Jitte's, etc.) will show that Ghast is equally susceptible to these perils.
The third point of interest in the article is the sideboard. Wispmare/Chewer vs. Ray/Grudge is a recurring concept in this thread. This article gives powerful reasons to use Grudge over Chewer. The most compelling of these arguments is, with a Grudge in your graveyard, you force your opponent to use their Relic or Crypt immediately, or they will lose it. If you have it in your hand, then all the better. If Chewer hits your graveyard, you can't use it immediately. You need to wait for a Dread Return and 3 sacrificable creatures in play. By that time, you are 2-3 turns behind with too many cards in your graveyard. Grudge is a small and onubtrusive card that definitively forces your opponent to pop their hatred. The only valid argument for including Chewer, as I see it, is circumventing Counterbalance/Crypt synergy and Chalice of the Void. These situations, however, are uncommon, and there are often better ways to deal with them than trying to blow up the artifacts.
The sideboard also includes a small toolbox of critical creatures. Ancestor's Chosen is important against Aggro and Tendrils. Angel slays threatening permanents. Terrastodon slays lots of threatening permanents. FKZ helps the mirror match, as well as any fast matchups. Overall, they are four elegant inclusions that give Dredge a lot of games 2 and 3 options, depending on its opponents.
In light of the article, I pose the following as critical points of interest to Dredge players. All of these arguments should be seriously (re)considered. Some people on this thread are almost religiously afraid to acknowledge the merits of these arguments, dismissing their supporters as stupid, lacking testing, or plain ignorant. In many cases, such counterarguments are backed up with comments like "it's been discussed before" and "it's just the way to do it." Some of these traditions should be re-evaluated, specifically the following:
1. No LED: Tribe is a better discard outlet, Dread Return food, a chump blocker, and helps consistency.
2. Tarnished Citadel/Extra mana: 3-4 extra lands drastically improve consistency and the control matchup (vs. Daze).
3. No Bloodghast/Undiscovered Paradise/Dakmor Salvage: The mana base suffers badly, and Ghast just is not that good.
4. No/Fewer Maindecked DR Targets: Too cool. The maindeck does not really need them.
5. Grudge > Chewer: Grudge is one card that forces your opponent to act. Chewer requires at least 4 others (DR and food).
-ktkenshinx-
If you cut 1 Dread Return for the 4th Study and the Darkblast for a 4th Ichorid (which are actually the right numbers for STudy and Ichorids), then you have the maindeck Bernhard Klinger aka Muradin played on a GP Trial (*Click*)Quote:
Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
I can't say much about his SB though, but 4 Grudges are ALWAYS the most important card for any noLED Dredge SB imho. The rest depends on the metagame, in Bernhard's case he stuffed 8 freespell-counters into it to combat Combos (which he did with success. Okay, with a misplay on Nemavera's side, but still... :>).
BUUUT I do not agree to run a fuckload of DR targets to combat hate. That makes just no sense as the hate is usually there to deny that line of play. You can actually cast DR only AFTER you have already dealt with your problems.
I agree with: 4 Grudge, 4 Chains, just because they are versatile. Leyline is okay and maybe necessary due to the current hype of Reanimator, but PLEASE RUN FUCKING 4 IF YOU DO! FOUR!!!111 You have to maximize the chance to have it in your opener since you can't dig into it with Careful Study unlike other SB cards etc.
Long story short: For me, that build is nothing new. AND it's made a little worse.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I'm not sure what you were getting at, ktkenshinx, but to answer your points, many players run 15 lands without LED (did you mean to post that in the LED Dredge forum?), including 1-3 Coliseums; very few people run Chewer before maxing on Grudges; the manabase issue associated with running Bloodghast is acknowledged and accepted by those who choose to run him; many players have dropped to 1 or even 0 main deck DR targets.
So... I'm not sure how much this article had to offer to people who stay current with LEDless dredge, I'm guessing it would be more helpful to Legacy players who either dismiss the deck or otherwise haven't been following it's development. Scrolling back through the pages it won't be too hard to find lists posted which his resembles quite closely.
Since Muradin posted his maindeck on page 63, at least three dozen other maindecks have been posted, few of which shared the tightness or consistency of his build. Just because the decklist has already been presented does not mean that it should not be advocated for anew; the bottom line is that this build, which is a good one, has not caught on enough. Looking back through the last five pages you see tons of decks with Paradise, lots of DR targets, bad sideboards, etc. While it might be "nothing new" for you, this is not true of many other players who frequent the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
A similar response to that which I gave to Adan. The decklist in this article was last mentioned almost 2 dozen pages ago, even after Muradin posted it originally. To me, this means that it did not catch on as much as people might believe. If you do not believe me, I encourage you to check out the most recent pages and see what decklists have been posted. They have stark dissimilarities to Muradin's list, as well as to the list that Max offers in his article.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
-ktkenshinx-
I am thankful for the article for sure as it helped steer me back toward the list on page 63 :)
After reading the thread post that page I do have to agree it seems to me personally the lists did taper off from that especially in the main decking DR targets and running less lands.
Also a quick question that will prove my newbness. After reading the report on page 63 I realized that I might be dredging wrong. By that I mean I reveal one card at a time until I have dredged all 4,5 or 6 cards, and I put each narco into play as I reveal it. It seems that what actually happens (based on that report) is all the cards go into the GY at the same time, and then any narco triggers go onto the stack. Is that correct?
Thanks everyone for the discussion and help!
Oh, okay, then I totally missed your intention behind that. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
But yes, if it comes to noLED Dredge, this is actually the approach I'd advocate as well. I also have the feeling that noLEd Dredge is actually about number crunches:
Having 15 lands is actually not the key point, the most important thing about the base is: 4 City, 4 Gemstone Mine, 3 Tarnished Citadel. That makes 11 5color lands. And running 11 5color lands gives you the highest odds of having EXACTLY ONE in your opening hand (if you run more, the chance of having more than 1 land is higher obv., thus the odds for having exactly 1 shrinks. Just in case this is misunderstood).
4 Breakthrough, 3 Study and 4 Coliseum makes 11 Breakthrough-effects as well, Study being the weakest, but I find Study to be crucial in the postboard games to dig into hate.
4 Imp, 4 Tribe and 3 Study make 11 discard outlets, therefore the odds for having exactly 1 are also optimized.
It's actually okay to shave that Study, but imo, having discard outlets AND dig for anti-hate is crucial, so I'd play 4 Studies on noLED.
If you understand the number crunches, it's easier to understand how noLED Dredge should look like, I hope I could contribute to that.
Correct, you would finish dredging before putting any Narco triggers on the stack. This would apply for a single dredge (i.e. replacing your draw for the turn) or multiple dredges resulting from Study/Breakthrough/whaterver - triggered abilities, such as Narcomoeba's, go on the stack the next time a player would receive priority.Quote:
Originally Posted by junkdiver