[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

Could you explain more in details why library would be good in such a tempo oriented deck ? Because to my mind it seems that even if it is a good late game card, it does not fit in the tempo strategy at all. What's more which slots would you remove to play it ? it already seems hard to find room for MM.
I read the primer by Goobafish, very interesting and well-written.

In Europe there is a huge tournament soon, and merfolk could be very played. Do you think that Canadian thresh has its place in such a meta ? I do believe in it, as sideboard options like REB or grim can be very efficient against those decks, but I wanted more opinions.

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Originally Posted by frenchy-man

Could you explain more in details why library would be good in such a tempo oriented deck ? Because to my mind it seems that even if it is a good late game card, it does not fit in the tempo strategy at all. What's more which slots would you remove to play it ? it already seems hard to find room for MM.

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Let me take this broader.

(Dark) Tempo Threshold is a deck that trades 1 for 1 or, in case of Force of Will, 1 for 2. This means that usually your deck will be in topdeck mode after turn 4 or 5 (depending on your opponents' deck). Dark Tempo Threshold is pretty strong at trading 1 for 1's, because it has (good) removal-spells, Spell snare's & Mental Misstep's & Daze (which create Tempo), etc. After turn 4 your deck must be in a winning position (by creating an superior board position), in order to win the game. This can be done through Disruption, alla Stifle/Wasteland, or Cardadvantage.

Dark Confidant supllies Cardadvantage and therefore more disruption, more creatures, more removal etc. Opponents can't deal with such amounts of Cardadvantage, therefore games usually end after it stuck.
Sylvan Library works exactly the same, though a little bit different. The card is fully operational after turn 3/4/5 creating Cardquality (you don't have less chance of bad topdecks) and/or Cardadvantage, without being vulnerable to creature removal (which has clear benefits but also some disadvantages in the sense that it can't attack). For example: in the control matchups, you'll simply draw an extra card each turn (till about 8 lifes), because they have no clock.

Dark Tempo Threshold is a deck that combines Disruption and Tempo with Cardadvantage (alla Dark Confidant). Having more 'Dark Confidant-ish' cards in your deck (against certain matchups) is pretty good. Let me rephrase that: more ways of Cardadvantage is always a good thing.
Therefore I believe that Sylvan Library should be put in your sideboard against Control( and agro-control).

If you have further questions, please PM me.

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Originally Posted by frenchy-man

Could you explain more in details why library would be good in such a tempo oriented deck ? Because to my mind it seems that even if it is a good late game card, it does not fit in the tempo strategy at all. What's more which slots would you remove to play it ? it already seems hard to find room for MM.
I read the primer by Goobafish, very interesting and well-written.

In Europe there is a huge tournament soon, and merfolk could be very played. Do you think that Canadian thresh has its place in such a meta ? I do believe in it, as sideboard options like REB or grim can be very efficient against those decks, but I wanted more opinions.

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I absolutely think Can. Thresh has a place in the meta, as it's got (in my experience) a great merfolk matchup with a competent pilot packing a little hate in the board. The hate can be broad, too -- I use Firespout and Pithing Needle, personally. I rarely lose to Merfolk because our removal spells are so damn efficient and we have less problems with opposing Dazes.

Feel free to point and laugh if they're playing Standstill.

Has anyone tested Mental Misstep?

Mental Misstep is great. You got an other answer for a first Turn Lackey, Vial and you could protect your creatures from Swords to Plowshares. You also got a solution für Phyrexian Dreadnought and each Combo Matchup is nearly 75%. I tested a lot at BoM in Annecy and i will play 3 Mental Misstep.

Ok, but I'm running the Red Version and i can't think of any card that i can cut from the deck...

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Originally Posted by Charlatan

Ok, but I'm running the Red Version and i can't think of any card that i can cut from the deck...

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For starters, 1 Fire//Ice, 1 Daze, 1 spell snare, 1 flex slot (varies from list to list).

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

I know from my Bant experience (tested it pretty heavily due to Green Sun's Zenith which is still an amazing card tbh) that Sylvan Library is pretty much the nuts, as a two-off.

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This deck already has 4 ways of generating Card-advantage, though playing 5 or 6 is, in general, better against certain matchups. I want him in the mainboard, but there's simply no more room left in this deck.
Any deck that doesn't play Dark Confidant, that does play green and is agro-control should play 1 or 2 Sylvan Library's, period.

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I agree with this for the same reasons, but I only run 1. The card is invaluable against Black based disrupting in two aspects: 1) hiding your threats until you're ready to cast them 2) recover cards in hand when you need the extra push.

Jace acts to provide the same advantages, but his 4cc mana cost is usually difficult to get to when facing Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole effects. Hence, Library is preferred. It also allows you to draw "extra" cards against certain matchups that can't apply pressure too quickly like Lands, Landstill, High Tide, etc. This puts the favor highly in your side as drawing 1-2 extra cards per turn is a sure-fire way to win games.

Since I figured this thread gets alot more attention than the Blue Zoo thread in N&D, I wanted to post a list that I've been destroying people with.

U/R/G/w Tempo Zoo

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (16)
4 [R] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (26)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll

I know, no Stifle/Wasteland. That's a pretty defining aspect of Tempo Thresh. However, I'd rather be committing creatures to the board during the early game, rather than holding U open for Stifle. Wasteland only taps for mana to cast a few spells in the deck, otherwise it's pretty much strictly a spell, and I think focus'ing on dropping guys (and attacking), countering everything, and burning out blockers and then sending burn to the dome, is a more productive means of winning the game.

This deck is alot more aggressive during the early game than a typical Canadian Threshold list, which capitalizes on the early tempo gains far more than the traditional lists. With so many cheap 1cc spells and free countermagic, the deck is extremely fast. The deck puts alot of damage through the red zone during the early and midgame, while preventing the opponent from doing very much. It's a pretty scary combination of cards.

The deck is basically Blue Zoo, which there is already a thread for in N&D, but I figured the idea would get more attention if I also posted my list in here. Sorry to hijack this thread. Carry on.

Creatures 8
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants 29
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 stifle

Sorceries 4
4 Ponder

Lands 18

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

i have 2 empty spots for creatures, I am thinking to add 2 V. cliques but I wanted to try something new. Anyone ever tried 2 Serendib Efreet or Burning-Tree Shaman ?

Actually you have only 1 spot...

Yeah, you'd have to shave another card to fit in 2 more creatures. I played the 4/4/1 of Goose/Goyf/Clique for awhile and it was decent. I believe BTS has been tried in the past and was underwhelming. As is the Efreet. You could try Sea Drake, but if it was me, I'd rather stick with the Clique.

I think Nimble Mongoose is worse than Wild Nacatl. With Mental Misstep as protection, theres little reason not to pick the faster 1 drop. Against Merfolk or Combo, Nimble Mongoose is the worst card in your deck! He's turned on turn 3-4 at the soonest, and they're already winning the game. Hanni's list is tight.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

With Mental Misstep as protection, theres little reason not to pick the faster 1 drop.

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Do you always have MM or something to protect your cat? Every time you give that example, you always have MM to save Nacatl. I'd rather play Goose that I don't have to babysit and by the natural progression of the game, becomes larger and still can't be touched. Saving MM to protect my Goyf/Bob sounds more appealing than blowing it to save an inferior creature. Or in that example do you also have MM ready as well?

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Against Merfolk or Combo, Nimble Mongoose is the worst card in your deck!

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Actually, I think the Ghastly Demise+Smother are probably the 'worst' cards in my deck against combo.

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He's turned on turn 3-4 at the soonest, and they're already winning the game.

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If he's turned on by turn 3-4, it means you've interacted in someway with them (countered spells, killed creatures, etc). So how are they 'already winning the game'? If you've disrupted Merfolk/Combo turns 1-4 and they've already won by then, I don't see how Nacatl helps any more or less. Unless he's swinging/blocking for 6-7 a turn. Which if he can then I will definitely play 4.

I just don't see any real reason to drop Goose for the cat other than some people don't like him. Which doesn't really do it for me. And theoretical scenarios where I always have MM to protect the cat doesn't really help.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

Yeah, you'd have to shave another card to fit in 2 more creatures. I played the 4/4/1 of Goose/Goyf/Clique for awhile and it was decent. I believe BTS has been tried in the past and was underwhelming. As is the Efreet. You could try Sea Drake, but if it was me, I'd rather stick with the Clique.

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thanks for the advise i will add 1 clique and find one more spot for an other one.

As for wild Nacatl she is a great cat but in a 4 color deck that needs turn 1 tropical (for daze and Nacatl) and turn 2 plateau to be 3/3 in a place that everyone play wastelands and some play stifles (there are only 2 white lands in the deck so most of the time I guess Nacatl is smaller than a full grown mongoose.)
Yeah i know you will have MM for his MM and for his stifle too, also for his burn/sword on the Nacatl. MM is only 4 times in your deck and stifles, swords, bolts are 4 times each on your opponent's (and he has 4 MMs in too!) so I prefer taking a lowly mongoose that if he survive the counter wars can win some games single handed (landstill that is a huge in my meta) than hopping to draw 4 missteps.

To be honest I've found Mongoose to be my best beater very often. I find that shroud is still very relevant. This is true of course for more traditional Tempo Thresh lists, that pack enough control to ride the single Mongoose to victory. Hanni's list is more different from TT than it may look from the card choices to me. That list wants to resolve an early beater or two and protect them, while TT wants to gain a small advantage, and then profit. Hanni's deck looks very interesting and is probably pretty strong, but IMO it has little to to with traditional TT (I know you already specified that you posted here for exposure, I just wanted to make things clearer in the Mongoose vs. Nacatl debate).

I have to agree with Cthuloo. I've won countless games on the back of nimble mongoose. Nacatl may be better in Hanni's list but honestly it isn't TT anymore.

I ran Canadian Thresh with missteps at the GP to an x-3 finish.

It was a good choice, and I only dropped games due to mana screw. It hoses all the bug control lists, but I've found that merfolk apparently gets the god draw every time :)

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Originally Posted by Scordata

I ran Canadian Thresh with missteps at the GP to an x-3 finish.

It was a good choice, and I only dropped games due to mana screw. It hoses all the bug control lists, but I've found that merfolk apparently gets the god draw every time :)

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Did you feel the deck overall was still a good choice? Also, what deck, if any, gave you the most trouble.

How strong is canadian thresh with misstep? I might go back to canadian if it proves to be better than dark thresh in utilizing misstep.

Nacatl is awful when compared to mongoose. There is one deck that should run nacatl and that deck is zoo. Hanni's deck is interesting sure but it's 4 color's. I refuse to play one more color in an already tight manabase to destabilize our mana further. Shroud is also VERY good. Mongoose has won me games due to its shroud where tarmogoyf would not. And I like that it costs 1 mana so you don't have to tap out for mongoose when you have a spell snare in hand or stifle or something that costs mana to cast.

And against combo I find ghastly demise and smother to be very bad this may be just me but I find that putting combo on a clock is more relevant than smothering a goblin token at which point we've likely lost.