All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Metalwalker

How do you play Team America without Goyfs then? :/

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A. Maybe use Delver instead.

B. Maybe splash white for SFM instead.

C. Do none of the above and play Reanimator.

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I guess you can play Dreadstalker :P

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- There's that too.

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And btw, when Tempo decks do start picking up again, the meta will adapt easily to beat it again.

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- Then I play some other deck. I gain more by having the seas than the Goyfs.

Quoting from the Amsterdam thread:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

7 card hand.

Getting 2 mana (Petal/ESG) being most card efficient path.
Resolve Hermit (hopefully using an Island, if it's not an Island you have no Daze).

4 cards left.

Pass turn.

Hope opponent doesn't kill your 1/1 with the dozen or so outs commonly played in legacy, and or/hope 2 of your last four cards are Force and blue.

It seems pretty miserable against quite a few decks. In addition Hermit would end up just being a blue deck anyway, with 4 x Brainstorm to fix openers. So I agree there.



Just dealing with SotF; which the SCG blue crowd just flat out refused to do during the 3-4 tourney stretch where Vengevine was "dominating". Nobody played Spell Snare, nobody played main deck grave hate, nobody played Pithing Needle, nobody played Suppression Field, nobody (had) Revoker. You've got Surgical Extraction now as well. They just whined that 'once it resolves I just lose', which was false; they just didn't want to have to have artifact / enchantment removal main deck. SotF was around for like 10 years, and provided a slow road to victory in exchange for burning your second turn (and hoping it resolved). Vengevine made it a faster road to victory.



Vise is unfun, but a dreadful top deck. Again, a refusal to main deck anything other than the 16 Amigos (Force, Brainstorm, StP, Daze) as a means to stop anything from impeding your plan is what would make Vise good.

Tax isn't unfun, it doesn't interact with your opponent or rape his strategy. It shouldn't take any longer to resolve than an SFM search. As for the Land Tax on the play standoff, it's no more irritating than Standstill. It might open the door for a number mostly white decks (WW, W-prison, etc.). Again sadly ... it makes Brainstorm better, that alone might be a reason to keep it banned.

Anyway, drifting into B&R discussion.

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Druid may not be downright broken, but it's just a dumb deck. Yes it lose against a lot of things, but imagine playing against maverick. You need STP or die. You need red and ZZZ. You can also use Daze at maximum efficiency in a similar deck. It may not "break" legacy, but few cards i think would do.

Survival is a dead horse. Yes, there are a lot of answer to survival and yes, those were underplayed in the vengevival era, but the deck isn't playing dead cards for survival (aside from memnite, depending from your definition of dead card). It isn't like answering a reanimating spell. Theorycrafting about survival is nice and dandy, but then you play against it and realize you can't just "answer survival", survival is like another beater that require differents spells to be removed. You answer it, you get rolled by other things.

My "unfun" was ironic. I don't think those cards are unfun, i think WotC is being stubborn about old cards that were good in formats where jamyedae tome was a good card too. Vise nowadays would go unplayed except in Stasis decks, but stasis would still sucks due to needing 1 h to win a match, and Tax could see some marginal play in some T2 decks and that's it.

Card: Brainstorm.

Reason: People focusing on the wrong card for current "imbalance".

Result: BS gets banned.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Druid may not be downright broken, but it's just a dumb deck. Yes it lose against a lot of things, but imagine playing against maverick. You need STP or die. You need red and ZZZ. You can also use Daze at maximum efficiency in a similar deck. It may not "break" legacy, but few cards i think would do.

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Two words. GUT. SHOT. :wink: I'm actually loving that card in today's legacy of Clique/Bob/Delver/Grim/SCM.

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Survival is a dead horse. Yes, there are a lot of answer to survival and yes, those were underplayed in the vengevival era, but the deck isn't playing dead cards for survival (aside from memnite, depending from your definition of dead card).

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Eh ... agree to disagree. I think SotF is no more an enabler then other currently non banned cards (like Brainstorm ... which actually enables Survival ... yay reshuffle effects!). It's slow, costs green. Is shut off by a billion different cards and requires your oh so valuable 2nd or 3rd turn to essentially do nothing. Vengevine sped the clock up greatly and that's what got it banned. Prior to it you still had to actually cast stuff.

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My "unfun" was ironic. I don't think those cards are unfun, i think WotC is being stubborn about old cards that were good in formats where jamyedae tome was a good card too. Vise nowadays would go unplayed except in Stasis decks, but stasis would still sucks due to needing 1 h to win a match, and Tax could see some marginal play in some T2 decks and that's it.

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Vise is a hold over from when you could play 4 x Strip Mines in type II. Is it miserable to start the game under a Vise? Eh ... if your playing control maybe. But again the theme here is that fans of the 16 amigos (StP, FoW, Daze, Brainstorm) feel that they should be under no obligation to main deck any kind of artifact / enchantment removal and whine about anything that resolves (on the play against them) as 'broken'. I mean go buy a f'ing playset of Repeals for christ's sake.

Having both Extirpate and Surgical Extraction as legal cards, I think the meta would be fine with the unbanning of SotF.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Card: Brainstorm.

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Reason: For years has been enabling degenerate strategies running the gambit from control, to aggro, to combo. The most ubiquitous non-land artifact, land card to ever grace the format. 23 of 32 at GP Amsterdam played a full 4. Fixes otherwise unsalvagable opening hands making it nearly a must play. Playing without it leaves you at the mercy of your starting 7. Pulls out unwinnable mid game situations by allowing you to dig at instant speed 3 cards deep and still replace brainstorm. Obviates discard as a strategy against combo and control by hiding key cards. Has only gotten more utility with the printing of fetch lands. If you aren't playing Chalice on 1 or all in aggro strategies like Merfolk you should be playing Island and Brainstorm, why leave your opening hand to chance?

Result: Brainstorm. Banned.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Having both Extirpate and Surgical Extraction as legal cards, I think the meta would be fine with the unbanning of SotF.

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Think about how brutal Surgical is in response to the Vengevine trigger. You've just burned your first 3 turns setting up your veggie assault. The whole thing gets pooned for 2 life.

They should clearly ban the blue duals(!) thats the only way ever blue will get less played.

But for real, imo the format is wildly open. Just a new flavor of the month strategi to beat now.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

But for real, imo the format is wildly open. Just a new flavor of the month strategi to beat now.

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First true statement I read about this subject all day!


What's up with the constant whining, when it comes to bannings it's like a 24/7 day care centre in here..
The format is totaly fine.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

They should clearly ban the blue duals(!) thats the only way ever blue will get less played.

But for real, imo the format is wildly open. Just a new flavor of the month strategi to beat now.

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23 of 32 playing a full set of one card accessible only through Island is widely open? Wow.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Having both Extirpate and Surgical Extraction as legal cards, I think the meta would be fine with the unbanning of SotF.

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I completely agree that Survival should in consideration for parole. It might even kill two birds with one stone in doing the job of curbing the amount of Brainstorms that see play in top tables, since it looked like the G/W/(B) lists were looking mighty superior to the initial U/G Survival lists.

Is it fair to unban Goblin Recruiter? I was asking people this at SCG Vegas and most seemed to think so. We put together goblins with Recruiter and tested it like two years ago and it was insanely busted... but that was two years ago, before Zenith, Batterskull, Snapcaster, ETC. Recruiter seems like it would be just the card to make goblins a high tier deck again.

Please give me Recruiters. PLEASE.

I would love to be able to play Goblins again.

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

I completely agree that Survival should in consideration for parole. It might even kill two birds with one stone in doing the job of curbing the amount of Brainstorms that see play in top tables, since it looked like the G/W/(B) lists were looking mighty superior to the initial U/G Survival lists.

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A look at the tail end of the SCGs while SotF was legal (not that they are the gospel) shows this out as well. Granted the lists with blue hadn't adopted some basic changes to fight it (i.e. maindeck Spell Snare). Merfolk had adopted by playing 3-4 maindeck Spell Pierce.

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Originally Posted by Antonius

Is it fair to unban Goblin Recruiter? I was asking people this at SCG Vegas and most seemed to think so. We put together goblins with Recruiter and tested it like two years ago and it was insanely busted... but that was two years ago, before Zenith, Batterskull, Snapcaster, ETC. Recruiter seems like it would be just the card to make goblins a high tier deck again.

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Actually, i tested a bit with recruiters lists. The old BelcherGoblin is downright unplayable, worse than so many other combo it isn't even fun. I also found Dirty Kitty to much worse than expected, possibly worse than normal goblin. "normal" goblin with recruiters may be too good, but i'm not convinced actually.

Also Surgical extraction being played everywhere alongside snappy could be a decent argument for unbanning survival. Time to resleeve some cards and try. Maverick with survival seems insane honestly.

Why should Land Tax be banned?

Can someone tell me how it was abused in the first place?

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

A look at the tail end of the SCGs while SotF was legal (not that they are the gospel) shows this out as well. Granted the lists with blue hadn't adopted some basic changes to fight it (i.e. maindeck Spell Snare). Merfolk had adopted by playing 3-4 maindeck Spell Pierce.

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Pithing Needle is still highly effective against SotF. Backed by Lavamancer = no mana dorks for you!

(I wouldn't even touch Vengevine if SotF was unbanned. I'd go for Turbo Survival Elves :)

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Actually, i tested a bit with recruiters lists. The old BelcherGoblin is downright unplayable, worse than so many other combo it isn't even fun. I also found Dirty Kitty to much worse than expected, possibly worse than normal goblin. "normal" goblin with recruiters may be too good, but i'm not convinced actually.

Also Surgical extraction being played everywhere alongside snappy could be a decent argument for unbanning survival. Time to resleeve some cards and try. Maverick with survival seems insane honestly.

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Yeah, people are going to be playing Food Chains Goblins and not any of the newer, significantly worse, Extended versions. If you're looking for a way to hurt Blue this would be it. Well that or unbanned Survival of the Fittest. The GWB version was pretty beastly.

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Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy

Why should Land Tax be banned?

Can someone tell me how it was abused in the first place?

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It was used with Scroll Rack (and I assume Brainstorm) back in the day. There are three reasons why Land Tax is banned:

1. It is a 1-mana spell that punishes you for playing lands. R&D has decided that this is unfun and contrary to the way the game should work/be played.
2. It tutors for 3 cards, every turn. This is both overpowered (arguable, as they are lands, but it's still +3 cards a turn) and wastes a lot of time.
3. It's hilarious to watch arguments about its unbanning, and that wouldn't be possible if it was actually legal.

tl;dr: Land Tax is the marijuana of legacy. Everyone talks about legalizing it, but it never actually happens.

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Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

Please give me Recruiters. PLEASE.

I would love to be able to play Goblins again.

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-With the current state the meta is in and how horribly goblins has been doing, I'm ok with this.