[Deck] The Rock

how about this:

Rock *

Creatures
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vampire Hex Mage
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant

Sorcery
3 Green Sun's Zenith---( can drop 1 GSZ and add one thought seize)
3 Living Wish
2 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond

Instants
3 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantements
1 Mirri's Guile----Can swap for 1 top
1 Sylvan Library----Can swap for 1 top
1 Pernicious Deed

Land
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dark Depths
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
1 Karakas ( can also put 1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Depths
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle

I dont no if GSZ is really necessary, and in my tests i think 4 MM in the place of the 4 Hynm to Tourach is better, like in the list who mde top4 in SCG las week

I actually like the fact that the deck only runs one Dark depths, and having one the board. I think the people who ran this list built a very good version of DD since most versions that I have seen in the past run 3-4 of them and I always find that to be horrible. It is a land that I never want to draw since it doesn't do anything for you unless you have a hexmage. I like the fact that the deck is just a junk deck with a way to have an oops I win route.

@novatinhu- I am not a big fan of your manabase. I don't think you need bog main deck and I really do not like steppe. I understand the cute tricks that you have and the fact that it protects your token, but I hate the fact that they come into play tap and I would never want to open with them in my opening hand. I think the bog is overall better but I still don't think it is needed. I also think mental misstep is really good in this deck. I really like how Brian Boss (think that is his name) had them in the main deck to help protect your bob, knight, and your DD token. I would really try to fit those in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C Rayz Walz

I actually like the fact that the deck only runs one Dark depths, and having one the board. I think the people who ran this list built a very good version of DD since most versions that I have seen in the past run 3-4 of them and I always find that to be horrible. It is a land that I never want to draw since it doesn't do anything for you unless you have a hexmage. I like the fact that the deck is just a junk deck with a way to have an oops I win route.

@novatinhu- I am not a big fan of your manabase. I don't think you need bog main deck and I really do not like steppe. I understand the cute tricks that you have and the fact that it protects your token, but I hate the fact that they come into play tap and I would never want to open with them in my opening hand. I think the bog is overall better but I still don't think it is needed. I also think mental misstep is really good in this deck. I really like how Brian Boss (think that is his name) had them in the main deck to help protect your bob, knight, and your DD token. I would really try to fit those in.

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Yeah, I agree, i dont like the mana base too, but I dont like Brian mana base too, I think 3 Canopy is too much.
I, working in a mana base.

We played really small local tournament last weekend just for fun as always (main price was DCI Sinkhole). 12 people appeared and we played 4 rounds of swiss. The decklist I played crystalized about 1.5 month ago in the era of SFM in standard before bans. The decklist:

Main:

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Forest

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf


4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind



Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate (this time but still these two are not fixed slots I was considering also 2 Perish in this place, but opted for extirpate beacause of Hive Mind decks)



GWu Maverick

Game 1 (on the play)
1st turn mox diamond + stoneforge fetching for batterskull, 2nd turn activation of stoneforge. Then some turns of beating with skull, hymn disruption and landing 2 confidants, Kotr and Goyf. Opponent being at 8 holds offensive with 2 KoTRs and some swords. Finally after landing second Goyf and vindicating Terravore swing with eveything for enough damage.

Side out:
3x Mox Diamond (probably mistake however opponent did not apply high pressure so everything finished nicely)

Side in:
3x Pernicious Deed

Game 2
Second turn mystic fetching nothing. Landing Batterskull and then Goyf offensive begins. Opponent is stuck on green mana only due to wasteland killing savannach and vindicate killing hierarch. Opponent cast Scrybd Ranger and can get dryad arbor / ranger combo blocking batterskull. Terravore stops my beatdown till landing SoBaM, equip batterskull and swing for the win.

(2-0)



UWR Stoneblade

Game 1
Don't remember the details but after first few turns we played almost from the top. Elspeth 1.0 was vindicated and that opened the way for my KoTR for the win.

Side out:
3x Mox Diamond
1x Thoughtseize

Side in:
2x Thrun
2x Krosan Grip

Game 2
My early treats become countered by mental missteps, spell snares and FoWs. I land Thrun = GG

(4-0)



UW Stoneblade

Game 1 (one the play)
Turn 1 stoneforge for batterskull, turn 2 activation and other turns of beatdown. Other treats become countered however wastelands keeps opponent from getting 4 mana for jace. Batterskull seals the game.

Side out:
3x Mox Diamond
1x Thoughtseize

Side in:
2x Thrun
2x Krosan Grip

Game 2
Mulligan to 5 keeping swamp, maze of ith and some other cards. Lands did not appear, maze become killed, stoneforge batterskull and mishra seals the game fast.

Game 3
I kept slow hand. Opponent casts SFM for skull. I sword mystic. Opponent cast another mystic for SoFaF. Activate mystic and put Batterskull which i krosan gripped. Mystic got STPed. Meanwhile 4 Vindicates targeting lands cleared opponent hands due to tripple FoW. Then some turns we had a chain of draw and go turns. I had Thrun but I don't have double green to cast it. I hardcast Batterskull which got STPed. Finally I got 2nd green and cast Thrun which equiped with Batterskull sealed the game.

(6-1)



MUD

Game 1 (on the draw)
1st turn hymn took 2 lands. 2nd turn vindicate killed last land in play. 3rd turn KoTR sealed the game.

Side out:
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x SoBaM

Side in:
2x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip

Game 2
1st turn confidant. 2nd Turn KoTR and bunch of krosan grips and vindicates sealed the game quickly. Even with chalice at 1 in play.

(8-1)


Mystic is huge in this deck. Provides stability and CA. Only thing I miss is lack of 3rd STD however I cannot find a place for it in my list. Still not sure about extirpate and the rest of sideboard. This part is definitely fixed for me :

3 Krosan Grip
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Pernicious Deed

All advices and comments appreciated.


Metagame:

Zoo
UW
UWR
Hive Mind
Hive Mind
MUD
Maverick
Merfolks
UW Merfolks
BW Discard
Junk
UGR Painter

The Sword you should be using if you're facing infinite Batterskull decks is Sword of Light and Shadow. Protection from Dismember, Go for the Throat, Stoneforge, Batterskull tokens, Vindicate, Swords, Path, etc. is just TOO good. Plus, Life Gain and recursion are great against decks with Body and Mind and those that counter your spells :)


-Matt

The problems I had was only with merfolks and green based decks. Batterskull is easy to face so the choice was obvious. I don't like SoLaS, in the testing it was second from behind where the worst one was SoWaP. Of course it is a metagame call but against batterskull the best response except vindicate and krosan grip is our own batterskull or short term action like STP. Simple and easy.

anyone try boarding in Angel's grace to combat against hivemind?

Angel's Grace is basically the only thing that's going to win you the matchup, besides REB (which I'm pretty sure we're NOT packing :tongue:)

If it's in your meta, pack 4. If not, are you okay losing to it? 4 Angel's Grace might not even win you the matchup, so you have to see if it's worth it to throw away other matchups.

Also, regarding SoLaS, just try it. We did days of testing where we sat in the card shop for 12-14 hours and ran gauntlets. SoLaS was suggested by a random EDH player when he asked us what the problem with the equipment was. Basically, we wrote off the two "bad" Swords (LaS and WaP) without even trying them. WaP is crap unless you're running into infinite Zoo. LaS is an absolute house against Stoneforge. They can't beat it except by Wrath of God or bouncing your creature with Jace. True, you'll get caught in a Goyf brawl at times, but if you're sticking it on anything besides your little guys, you beat their Goyfs with the +2/+2.

When Stoneforge loses to it, it's good enough to play. You can always run a SoBaM in the board if you want, but I don't think it is necessary against Folk. Batterskull dominates them, especially with all of our removal. The life-swing + removal is too much, and the +2/+2 is still pretty good (turning off their Dismembers).

Why make the Stoneforge matchup harder for youself? More answers isn't a bad thing. Stoneforge folds to it, unless you can't remove their Jace/wolf tokens. Please try it.

Again, give it a try before you say it's awful. I did the exact same thing, but then it became even better most of the time.

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Also, I went to SCG Seattle and didn't play Rock. In a way, I'm glad I didn't. Holy hell was there a ton of Hive Mind. I played Aggro Loam, but scrubbed out after Round 6 since I was no longer in the money. A ton of Stoneforge around, but I played Aggro Loam and never faced it once. I lost to bad draws. REALLY bad draws. Oh well.

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RE: kubalonek's list:

I'd run Noble Hierarchs now instead of Mox. I know, Misstep is prevalent, but Exalted in the Batterskull showdown is really good. It's why Bant is so good against other Goyf decks. Give it a try, at least. Otherwise, the list looks solid.

I could run a Tutor board again, I'm liking it quite a bit (again, even with MM). Basically, you sacrifice some of your awesomeness against Stoneforge, but vary your hate.

I'm thinking:

3 Grip
2 Thrun
2 E. Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tariff

Unless you want to solve Hive Mind. If you had to board against Hive Mind, I'd say:

3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Angel's Grace
4 Ethersown Cannonist
4 Green Pact

Again, is this practical? No. But, If you had to? Perhaps :P

-Matt

What is REB. i keep reading that every where

nvm...got it. Red elemental blast

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Again, give it a try before you say it's awful. I did the exact same thing, but then it became even better most of the time.

-Matt

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Each time I appreciate your comments Matt however you probably didn't read my post carefully because I undelined there the word testing of swords. It was not testing in paper but a lot of work done. This is my testing choice concerning my metagame not random decision build on just simple roll die.

No, I read your comment, and saw you were having trouble with Green and such, but my thoughts were that if you're facing Batterskull based decks and removal, run SoLaS and deal with Goyfs using Deed/removal. Sorry if I misread what you were talking about :)

For sure if you're running into infinite green creatures, run SoBaM, unless you're running against Aggro Loam :)

-Matt

I was running the standard Junk list a few weeks ago (before the inevitable summer vacation craziness kicked in) with 4x Vindicate, Hymn, Bob, Goyf, Thoughtsieze, Swords, etc. I tried GSZ a little bit, but felt like I was just trying to jam another good card into the deck without getting enough value. It seems like a Stoneforge package would be good, but I haven't tested it yet. In both cases I felt like they were great strategies that perform better in other decks than they do in Junk/Rock, and I was hesitant to commit to fully trying them out. Green Sun is a lot better when you actually WANT to play Dryad Arbors and Noble Heirarchs, and Stoneforge into Batterskull seems scarier and more streamlined in the Control and DeadGuy lists. sdematt might disagree with me on the Stoneforges though, and again I never got excited enough to really playtest the versions. But then Junk Depths resurfaced, and with it came renewed excitement for this archetype.

While Kenny Mayer's Crop Rotation list seems pretty interesting, there are some nuances to it that I don't like. Knowing I still wanted to play a proper Junk shell, I opted for the Jesse Roberts/Brian Boss version of the deck. Here is what I have built at the moment:

3 Mox Diamond

4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtsieze
4 Living Wish
2 Life from the Loam

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD:
1 Sundial of the Infinite
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vampire Hexmage
2 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths

The only real changes from Jess Roberts' list are swapping a Horizon Canopy for Volrath's Stronghold, and putting Thrun in the Sideboard instead of Goyf. Also Extirpate is Surgical Extraction, since one black shouldn't be too hard to spare in the instances where I need the effect, and this deck already deals itself a ton of damage. I'm trying Volrath's Stronghold out since, as Kenny Mayer pointed out in his version's Deck Tech, it gives me the ability to keep recurring the combo in the late game. Without the Stronghold, Life from the Loam seems worse, so I would likely run the 3 together or not at all.

The reason I like the Depths addition is because it gives the deck an answer to all the other unfair decks out there. Instead of keeping them off Reanimate or Show and Tell or Natural Order or Stoneforge Mystic, we can actually just trump them with our own deadly win con. I feel that Junk can grind most games into a favorable position with the correct play sequences, but it takes really knowing your opponents' decks to make all the right choices in the early game. Even after that hardwork, they could still blow us out with the right trump card and we would lose. With the Depths combo, we have the inevitability that other decks also enjoy. Sure, we lose Vindicate and Hymn, but who really wants to resolve those on turn 14 when it just leaves us topdecking for more outs anyway? I'd rather be actively searching for a 20/20.

I've barely tested the deck, so I'll report again when I have actually accumulated some relevant play experience with it. For now I'm just psyched to be back on the Rock train.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Borealis

Sure, we lose Vindicate and Hymn, but who really wants to resolve those on turn 14 when it just leaves us topdecking for more outs anyway? I'd rather be actively searching for a 20/20.

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Hymn is the reason this deck is so good. Hymn is unfair. It does crazy things. It keeps your opponent from doing crazy things. The only game you don't want to turn 1 Hymn off a Mox is when you're going against dredge, and quite frankly, dredge doesn't actually play Magic.

I like the Dark Depths versions I've seen floating around lately, but I do not agree at all with any Junk list not running 4x Hymn. I played the Source tournament at Jupiter Games over the weekend with pretty good success (4-1-2) and I blew out combo and NoPro decks only because of a crazy early game hymn. If you get them to discard their business right off the bat, then Tarmagoyf or Knight can do exactly what that Merit Lage token is doing...without having to fetch them up.

Speaking of, I ran a stoneforge package / no GSZ list, and I loved it. Stoneforge allowed me to crush Bant and mirror due to a SoBaM and SoLaS in the board. SFM is insane.

i was wondering what people think of the Junk-Depths list without mox diamonds, would that list be still viable in a slower meta?
i am asking becaus i really enjoy the idea of a 20/20 popping out of a junk deck for the "i-win-effect"^^, BUT i do not want do sacrifice both hymn and vindicate, actually i would love to still keep both if somehow possible

I think you could definitely run it as a side combo, but I don't think at that point it's worth it.

Mox Diamonds, in that version, are pretty good, since you're running Loams. Mox puts the deck way ahead, and I think that version is trying to just combo off and then protect the combo, or mass discard then combo.

The whole thing is, do you NEED Vindicate with a 20/20? Probably not.

@ Borealis

I wasn't a huge fan of Stoneforge at first, but SoLaS changed my mind.

-Matt

@ Seems Good: Hymn is absolutely a very powerful card in Junk, and in Legacy in general. It's one of my favorite cards and the reason I decided to build the deck in the first place. But it's not always a blowout. Brainstorm, Ancestral Visions, Spell Snare, and Standstill are all cards that mitigate its tempo effects. And in the late game it can be dead or have little effect on the game state. I suppose against Hive Mind and NO RUG it should be good, but the problem is they still have inevitability on you. If they lose the combo or a couple lands turn 1, they can still Pact you or Progenitus you, it will just take a few extra turns. Without counters to stop them midgame, it's hard to race them with a 4/5 Goyf or even an 8/8 KOTR with no evasion, when Progenitus is unblockable and Hive Mind says "die on your upkeep". Sometimes it works, but sometimes it's not fast enough.

Also, the Depths version would be bulky with too many 2-drops. It relies more on creatures for pressure, so it was logical to cut Hymn for Living Wishes. If I do decide to put Hymn back in I would cut the Missteps most likely. Again though, I haven't tested any of this out extensively, I'm just trusting the judgement of the SCG 3rd placers who brewed up the Depths version.

AggroSteve, if you wanted to cut Mox Diamonds but still run Depths, I would maybe try a couple Crop Rotations to speed up the combo. But I don't think you can just yank the Moxes and sqeeze in Hymn and Vindicate. Mox can suck sometimes, but it really does help us keep tempo on the format's best. If you want both of those I'd have to agree with sdematt in that it's probably not worth running the combo. I can see trying to fit in a few Hymns, but I think Vindicate is too clunky with Hexmages and Marit Lages in the deck.

I think learning to play with the combo will take some time. I do agree that Living Wish feels awkward sometimes (and I would instinctually prefer Hymn often), but I think it's due to not knowing how to optimize the deck yet. It's definitely not quite the same as just "Hymn you, Bob, or KOTR, go". But I think once I learn the matchups and how to sneak the combo out as efficiently as possible, it will prove strong. The fact that Land is uncounterable makes the combo somewhat hard to disrupt, if played correctly. It's still fragile, but I think it gives us an edge over many decks in the current meta. If not, I plan on testing out Stoneforge Mystics next.

sdematt, what specifically about Light and Shadow do you like the most, compared with the other Swords? I know you mentioned it before on this thread, but I'm still curious.

1) Having pro Swords, Path, Dismember, Go for the Throat, Vindicate, etc. is really handy in most situations.

2) If it's equipped, you can swing past Batterskull, Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary and Stoneforge Mystic all day long. That's a big deal.

3) 3 Life is pretty good at offsetting Dark Confidant, but getting back countered threats is also good.

-Matt

indeed SoLaS is really strong IMO, i even played it as a 2 off some time ago even before SFM came out

i allways preferred SoLaS over every other Sword because it puts every thread out of any spotremoval-range other than jace, which i would not really count as spotremoval, and it wins goyf wars as well

Seems reasonable. It sounds like Stoneforges run rampant where you guys play, and so of course SoLaS makes sense in that kind of meta. Last I checked, SFM was also out of hand in my playgroup, so I'll be sure to pack one if I trend toward that plan.

Also just ordered some Angel's Grace to try against the Hive Minds of the world. Also works as a reasonable plan against Burn, Zoo, and even Progenitus when my clock is just a turn slower then theirs. Let you know how that goes.