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Well, good to know. Since I'm also playing Tuktuk MD vial on 4 is getting a good chance in late game of being useful. Also Wort can let you recover a ringleader on and on I guess. How about running Lightning Crafter (also 4cc) and removing Matron or Ringleader is nice, at least in thorie. Has anyone experienced it yet?
Well, in theory it also opens up these t3 kills (without that skirkprospector/kiki-jiki kill)
T1 Lackey
T2 Pile + Pile
T3 Warchief + Lightning Crafter
T1 Lackey
T2 SGC + MWM
T3 Chieftain + Lightning Crafter
T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Warchief
T3 Matron + Matron + Piledriver + Lightning Crafter
T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Incinerator
T3 Stingscourger + Piledriver + Lightning Crafter
T1 Vial
T2 Lackey + Piledriver
T3 Warchief + Piledriver + Lightning Crafter
And thats it for today. Altogether though, as far as t3 kills go, Lightning Crafter isn't a great one of. There aren't many matron hands that can manage a t3 kill with Crafter as target.
The strength lies in killing merfolks once they've got a pair of lords on the board. And Nacatls ofcourse...
I was trying a list with a Kiki-Jiki and a Prospector, so I tossed a Crafter to see how it went. After 2 days of testing, it did very poorly. The only MU it was awesome was against Merfolk, but we have that covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
On other MU's he is supposed to be good, but is very weak. Never got to dodge a removal with Vial @4 + him. Never got to activate him lots of times to kill + than one dude, and usually, when you remove one of your guys instead of playing other one, you get run over. Also, it was sided out quite a lot.
Some other MU's where he is supposed to be very effective are prision like decks, a.ka. Enchantress, Stax, Lands, because their slow enough so he became more effective. Unfortunately, he doesn't cut it nowadays.
I don't like Lightning Crafter, but Kiki is worth his weight in gold in the matchups I use him. I don't always use him, mind you, but he just steals games when I do.
Killing on turn two is epic though...
So does Sharpshooter deserve maindeck inclusion now? With all the snapcasters, bobs, hierarchs, cliques, planeswalkers and goblin tokens going around?
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by Nameless Two
i play a straight R/B-List. would u consider Murderous Redcap therefor?
With or without Cabal Therapy?
I don't think I could find a spot for the redcap though.. Most of the time Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger and Warren Weirding will answer whatever Redcap would have to answer.
I agree. I just don't think he warrants a spot in comparison to the other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless Two
I just tried a build like this, with 2 mox and 3 SGC, as well as WInstigator and chieftains instead of Warchiefs. Results are that the matchup against ANT and SpiralTide was increased to maybe 40/60 but I got beaten down by Thresh, Bant and Maverick. I can see good chances for this build in a game vs. Dregde, but everything that takes a control position just gets rid of everything important and leaves you with an empty hand and full graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
To it's defence I must state that I didn't like the build in the beginning and just went for some testing, but the cc curve is way to high, I believe and Mox starts are inconsistend and card disfavoring. Playing an Winstigator and facing a Sword. On the draw chances are slightly higher but still not in our favor.
Therefore I returned to a r/b-build similar to jrw1985s. I also realized that Pyrokinesis is still a blast and I will continue to fit it into there.
With Instigator back in the deck, is it worth running Kiki?
I've played with Kiki on and off to varying levels of explosiveness though I've cut Kiki in the last year. But Instigator hit into Matron + Kiki seems pretty awesome for those games where you're in a control role. You get a delayed tutor. So instead of deciding right away, you sit there and wait for whatever you need to answer the board state. If Kiki untaps for a second use, profit! At worst, he draws removal and you Matron up whatever you would have gotten in the first place. I always found it was a tempo suck tutoring for him when running on Lackey, but he's a lot less awkward to cheat out with Instigator.
What are thoughts on Lightning Crafter outside the Merfolk match? I've found it can work really nicely alongside Sharpshooter or SGC/Gempalm to take Goyfs and Tombstalkers and Knights that are otherwise annoying to kill. But can be clunky to assemble. Even if you can't ping something, the card advantage from strategic championing isn't bad.
Kiki and Lightning Crafter take away from Siege-Gang Commanders or some other aspect of the deck. It took me a while to give up on them, but they aren't very consistent, especially in losing situations, but when they work out they work out big.
15 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Cheiftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Blood Moon
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokenesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
This serves my purposes very well, and I never feel like I miss Warchief. It doesn't improve match ups like a focused Instigator build does, except for probably Stax and combo in a vacuum.
Don't do it! He's wayyyyyyyyyyyy to slow for Legacy, and you have Sharpshooter, Fanatic, Gempalm, Weirding, Tarfire and SGC already.Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudshade
Not just for control roles, if your instigator gets throught you can use Matron -> Kiki -> eot copy matron to find Chieftain. On your turn play and copy chieftain for lethal damage (18 in total + the 2 your opponent already took from the first instigator hit).Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
So if unopposed (perhaps against combo), you can kill the turn after you hit with Instigator (with matron in hand). Making it perhaps not such a bad idea to play one Kiki in a build with instigator.
(Instigator -> Matron -> SGC only turns into 8 damage the next turn, so 10 in total)
Yeah, but when your playing against decks that just kick your ass for the first five turns (most of the field), you lose with cards like Kiki Jiki in your deck. The best way to bomb out lethal with instigator and chieftain is another chieftain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless Two
A lot of your findings are inconsistent with my own results. While I do agree that Chrome Mox should probably get the axe for another Mountain I disagree with everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Thresh, Bant and Maverick actually are good matchups for this build, moreso than traditional Goblins. I don't see how any of the decks can trade 1 for 1 and beat you, as you will eventually establish a Ringleader or Siege Gang and overwhelm them. Piledriver does nothing to beat any of those decks, it's only good on the offensive and when you start attacking that means you have succesfully grabbed control of the game and you will win regardless of your damage output. Cutting them seems only sensible to me. With 4 SGCs you actually have more relevant cards ergo more gas. The point of Relic was never to beat Dredge or Reanimator but to stop Tombstalker, Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary. In order for Relic to work, you have to use it conservately, don't pop it at the first oppurtinity you have mana open but let it stick around.
In order to succeed with my build, you have to adapt your playstyle. You need to play the control role and you can't just throw guys at them and hope it's enough. That is more demanding for the pilot but more rewarding in the end. It also means you have to be willing to take the effort to learn the inner workings of the deck. You are a control deck, not an aggro deck. If you prefer the aggro role, this build is not suited for you and I encourage you to play with Piledrivers.
@Mantis
I respect your build and your logic, but how do you feel about having so few Gempalms? I'd take out a bolt and a Stingscourger for the set.
I also feel like having one Mogg War Marshal can be more flexable than having the thrird Siege-Gang Commander, but that's mostly because I play against zoo a lot, but it's good against other things too.
After the GP I concluded that 1 Stingscourger and 3 Gempalms might be better than a 2/2 split. Still, it depends on the expected metagame. If Sneak and Show and Reanimator will be big I'd probably play 2 Stingscourgers, otherwise I would prefer having 3 Gempalms.
Zoo isn't very popular over here, nor is it well positioned in the current metagame in my opinion. If your metagame contains a lot of Zoo, your build should change accordingly and a MWM might be required.
The list I presented serves more as an example of the concept. Making adjustments to the main and side depending on the expected metagame and personal preference are obviously acceptable. As for the sideboard, I would advise to be able to round out the set of Relics and have 2 slots reserved to Pyrokinesis or Arc Trail so you can side out the Relics when they do nothing. Furthermore I made the mistake of not playing REB and I advise every Goblins player to not repeat my mistake and always pack 4.
I guess I agree. I don't play competitively very frequently, so I still sort of believe in a meta with variety, but I guess one lesson of the GP is that maindeck hate wins and blue hate wins. I like how REB supplements gravehate against Reanimator...just enough sometimes to trip up a Careful Study or cantrip, but I haven't tested it's application against Stoneforge and co.
Is REB your forum's abbreviation for Pyroblast? I thought Pyroblast was strictly better...
What are you guys running in your SBs for the current meta? What would you recommend for an RB build?
I'm running 3 Shattering Spree, which might be overkill, but I just really really hate seeing equipment. In the last few months I've never wished Spree was a Grip. Replicate dodges countermagic fine, and you can do stuff like take out multiple equipment, or equipment+Vial, or equipment+Mox. Plus the usual stuff it kills like Stax.
As for anti-aggro, would you go 2/2 Perish/Pyrokinesis? For a while I was running 3 Perish but I'm seeing less NO and Maverick than in the MM format. Do we even need these slots anymore?
That takes up a lot of slots already (7). I top that off with 4 Therapy + 4 grave hate (varies), and that was fine for a while, but maybe it's a mistake not to have the REBs with so much blue being played now?
What matches do you really like having REB and what do you typically side out for it? What would you cut to make room for them? I feel like I lose harder to equipment than counterspells so I'm reluctant to cut Sprees. Has Therapy's time passed? Or is the anti-aggro unnecessary with Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, Weirding and Gempalms main?