Miracle Control

I am playing exclusively UW Miracle for months (first the normal one, then with land tax and now with helm/rip) but I still feel like I am very bad with it. My goal is to some time get into the top 8 of a small tournament but I keep getting negative results with multiple draws per tournament and always some games where I lose due to some small mistake. Is this deck only good for professional/very experienced players or is there some specific training or deck changes that provide less opportunities for mistakes and less draws due to running out of time? I feel like I can play relatively well with enough time to think but if I play fast I always screw up. I know I could get better results with monored burn but I just like the deck even though I'm so bad at it :-) (although I would prefer to play Stoneblade but I don't have the money for the Underground Seas, Karakas and so on).

I am playing a Helm/Rip version similar to Robert Wilkinsons (changed a bit by a few cards that I don't own):

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Flooded Strand
2 Force of Will
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Humility
7 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
3 Plains
3 Rest in Peace
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
3 Tundra

SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Energy Field
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 2 Terminus

Also I am totally clueless how to sideboard, is my sideboard ok and is there some article on how to sideboard against the various matchups? Which cards are essential and which are to be switched out frequently?
For example in the mirror do I sideboard out my rest in peace and leave my helm in to use it when he plays rest in peace? And should I bring pithing needle in as it is really useful against their Jace but blocks my own one too?
And what do I do in the mirror if my enemy gets top + counterbalance out against me very early and proceeds to play very slowly with looking into his divining top every turn so that there will not be time for game 2? Shall I then give up fast or hope to still turn the game around?
And how much creature removal should I leave in against combo to account for transformational sideboards or empty the warrens or Xantid Swarm? And why does noone use land tax and daze? Also if I look up for successfull miracle decks there are so many different variants with small differences, how do I choose which one is best?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Jund's goal is not about blowing up CB. That's your misunderstanding. AD's meant as utility tool box when things don't go Jund's way, and CB happens to be that, but it's a generic solution for Jund. Jund's goal is Beatdown and get Punishing Fire combo online. Sphere completely shuts down the Punishing combo AND slows down all the other red cards.

Black's discard does not put you on a clock, discard is meant to buy turns. If you don't play Energy Field Rest in Peace version, you have no ways of gaining life, Bolt, Punishing Fire are too many threats to cover. If you run Energy Field Rest in Peace version, then you should just focus on killing Liliana and protecting enchantment from AD, both Sphere and Leyline would become redundant.

The difference between those 2 cards is how many SB slots are you going to dedicate to Jund, since Leyline has to be 4 or none, as I've already mentioned. Ancestral Visions make no sense.

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Let me rephrase then. Jund's goal is to run a deck out of resources with discard and 2-for-1s before they eventually kill you with their efficient creatures. Between Swords and Terminus, Miracles has no problem dealing with Jund's first several creatures, but the loss of CA adds up and they will eventually stick something that you can't deal with.

Counterbalance makes this plan impossible for Jund because with a decent Counterbalance + Top lock your resources are effectively infinite. Their only chance is that they already have a big board presence and you can't find a Terminus in time or that they find Abrupt Decay.

Ancestral Visions is another way to directly combat Jund's gameplan, but since we already have Counterbalance, I prefer to go over the top with cards like Baneslayer, Entreat, Elspeth, and Blood Moon that they have a lot of trouble answering. Also, it doesn't hurt to board in a couple more answers to Liliana.

Sphere is bad because if I am Jund playing against a nearly creatureless control deck then Bolt is the first thing I'm siding out. Punishing Fire is still good for them because it is good at answering our planeswalkers, so yes, you'll likely catch them with PFire still in their deck. The only other card it affects is BBE and only when it attacks you. BBE is still great CA and still great at killing Jace.

I mean this is the nicest possible way: There's a certain piece of anti-Jund tech that's pretty darn good in my testing. It's an oldie but a goodie. I'll do some more testing before I splurge too much, but it's also sweet against Burn.

-Matt

[QUOTE=sdematt;704298]I mean this is the nicest possible way: There's a certain piece of anti-Jund tech that's pretty darn good in my testing. It's an oldie but a goodie. I'll do some more testing before I splurge too much, but it's also sweet against Burn.

I'm intrigued. I usually liked your ideas from previous threads. I can't think of a solution yet just seems like we have to go over the top against these attrition decks but if you find that the card you are testing is good please do tell.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Let me rephrase then. Jund's goal is to run a deck out of resources with discard and 2-for-1s before they eventually kill you with their efficient creatures. Between Swords and Terminus, Miracles has no problem dealing with Jund's first several creatures, but the loss of CA adds up and they will eventually stick something that you can't deal with.

Counterbalance makes this plan impossible for Jund because with a decent Counterbalance + Top lock your resources are effectively infinite. Their only chance is that they already have a big board presence and you can't find a Terminus in time or that they find Abrupt Decay.

Ancestral Visions is another way to directly combat Jund's gameplan, but since we already have Counterbalance, I prefer to go over the top with cards like Baneslayer, Entreat, Elspeth, and Blood Moon that they have a lot of trouble answering. Also, it doesn't hurt to board in a couple more answers to Liliana.

Sphere is bad because if I am Jund playing against a nearly creatureless control deck then Bolt is the first thing I'm siding out. Punishing Fire is still good for them because it is good at answering our planeswalkers, so yes, you'll likely catch them with PFire still in their deck. The only other card it affects is BBE and only when it attacks you. BBE is still great CA and still great at killing Jace.

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i agree with this, counterbalance compromises their plan of out resourcing you s it's a good card against them still.

[QUOTE=Jayman;704314]

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I mean this is the nicest possible way: There's a certain piece of anti-Jund tech that's pretty darn good in my testing. It's an oldie but a goodie. I'll do some more testing before I splurge too much, but it's also sweet against Burn.

I'm intrigued. I usually liked your ideas from previous threads. I can't think of a solution yet just seems like we have to go over the top against these attrition decks but if you find that the card you are testing is good please do tell.

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Chill?

Weird, I was trying to post in the BUG thread and ended here. That's a serious screw-up on my part.

The card is Chill. Either way, it works for either deck. Making BBE cost 6 is atrocious for them, and 2R Bolts and 3R Punishing Fire loops start to become VERY unprofitable.

-Matt

That may work but sadly Abrupt Decay is non-red.

but you can't keep using AD as an argument to why your card doesn't work. If you're playing the Helm combo, they have better stuff to kill first, like Rest in Peace or Energy Field or even Counterbalance. They can't muck everything. It's like saying you can't play X because of Force of Will.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

but you can't keep using AD as an argument to why your card doesn't work. If you're playing the Helm combo, they have better stuff to kill first, like Rest in Peace or Energy Field or even Counterbalance. They can't muck everything. It's like saying you can't play X because of Force of Will.

-Matt

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Yes you can. When you run a bunch of conditional stuff that doesn't do shit half the time (e. g. c/b has no impact on board, has a hard time countering 3cc and 4cc, bloodbraid and confidant/liliana don't care about RIP, field doesn't do anything without rip, and uhm, goyf, liliana and discard don't care about chill), your opponent has the choice of what to take out with Decay. You can bet on him taking the most troublesome permanent, while whatever else you're having on board would likely have minimal impact (e. g. totally suck).

And its not like they're not siding in their pyroblasts as well.

There're 3 ways to beat jund (as any other midrange deck)
1) Destroy their mana
2) Be very fast
3) Run trump spells and avoid bad trades to survive.

While 1) and 2) totally aren't about Miracles, you're able to go route no.3. So if you're looking to beat jund - avoid playing RIP/Field/Chill, try Relics instead, up your Entreat count to 3 and run Leyline of Sanctity in S/B. Baneslayer Angels are pretty tough for them to take out under Leyline as well, so I'm running 2 out of the board. Take out FoWs and C/B - let them have their useless Decays.

Nope, conditional permanents, that are subject to a commonly run 4-of do not count for 'trump'.

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

There're 3 ways to beat jund (as any other midrange deck)
1) Destroy their mana
2) Be very fast
3) Run trump spells and avoid bad trades to survive.

While 1) and 2) totally aren't about Miracles, you're able to go route no.3. So if you're looking to beat jund - avoid playing RIP/Field/Chill, try Relics instead, up your Entreat count to 3 and run Leyline of Sanctity in S/B. Baneslayer Angels are pretty tough for them to take out under Leyline as well, so I'm running 2 out of the board. Take out FoWs and C/B - let them have their useless Decays.

Nope, conditional permanents, that are subject to a commonly run 4-of do not count for 'trump'.

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I agree with you half way. Yes those permanents are trumps but they have only 4 adrupt decays and rip field makes traditionally bad match ups for uw actually good. If everything you play is a bomb against them they won't have the right answer all the time. I do agree we should go more bomby like more entreat/hard to answer threats but lets keep our other matchups good especially with combo coming back.

I love that the people running Energy Field and Rest in Peace in the maindeck are complaining that their sideboard cards don't do enough. Maybe don't run 10 blanks and you might get better results.

Against decks that can go long better than Miracles, you have to behave like a combo deck. You are trying to engineer the situation where you eot make enough angels to kill them. To do this, you need a lot of lands. You also want the full suite of removal and disruption in the main. You aren't a control deck vs these archtypes.

So Miracles has slid out of the Decks to Beat section... time to get back to work.

Yea I just looked at the past 6 weeks, since Jan 1st, of larger events and Miracle Control is one of a few decks on a decline, even more interesting is, according to the DTB section here, Jund didn't just make deck to beat, it actually hit 1st according to their standards, which do include smaller events but still. In either case, the past few months have been the biggest "Shake up's" in the format in quite some time. Also the amount of combo in Edison according to the commentators was definitely impressive.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

So Miracles has slid out of the Decks to Beat section... time to get back to work.

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Yeah, definitely. Decay / Deathrite / Liliana decks are obviously a big part of the issue. If those are moving towards Jund I feel much better than against the various BUG decks.

After some more testing vs Jund and BUG Delver, here's where I've gotten to right now:

Maindeck

5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Rest in Peace
2 Energy Field

1 Vendilion Clique
1 Detention Sphere
1 Blood Moon
1 Entreat the Angels

3 Jaces, the Mind Sculptor
1 Helm of Obedience

3 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

3 Teminus


Sideboard

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Humility
1 Counterbalance
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Seal of Cleansing


I'm a little weaker to combo preboard, and having that many pitch spells could be very awkward, but I've not had much success with Divert or Redirect to answer Abrupt Decay / Sinkhole / Hymn compared to Misdirection.

I think Blood Moon is still good enough, especially against a lot of the Jund and BUG decks but it may have to go back to the board soon.

I do want to try to work some more 'real' counterspells like Pierce and Snare back in, but I'm not sure how those fit in a list with the RIP / Field / Helm plan, which I'm still happy with for now.

If your plan to combat Jund is to continue to run Energy Field, you are going to continue to lose games. You don't even have Terminus or Entreat. How do you ever beat this deck that is casting a minimum of two Abrupt Decays per game?

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Originally Posted by Malakai

If your plan to combat Jund is to continue to run Energy Field, you are going to continue to lose games. You don't even have Terminus or Entreat. How do you ever beat this deck that is casting a minimum of two Abrupt Decays per game?

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Thanks for reminding me I left out 3 Terminus (edited now). That's what I get for posting before I've had enough coffee. I do have one entreat, its in the list with the other threes, as I list by counterbalance curve. Its good against Jund, but often too slow.

I've certainly not had that many issues with Jund. RIP is fine, Field is marginal. There are good and bad cards in a lot of matchups, this isn't anything new. RIP / Field plays more like Thopterbalance in that you have a few more conditional cards / blanks, but more blowout cards. Lists without play more like the old Supreme Blue lists where a lot of your cards are weaker but always do something. I'm happy with RIP / Field in *my* meta, but it may not be right for everyone / every meta.

Jund certainly isn't casting 'minimum of two abrupt decays per game', they only have 3-4 and have at most 1 Sylvan Library and Dark Confidants to try to find them. Liliana is a much bigger problem most of the time in the matches I've played. Otherwise, like any of the midrange-y green decks, they have to draw more threats than you have answers. Top is insane because it plays through their discard and lets you card-selection your way into a late-game victory. They don't have any huge blowout cards I'm afraid of outside of Lili, so just kill the dudes they play and its usually not too bad. Bloodbraid is good against counterspells, but I'm not on that many of those anyways.

Having the extra spot removal with Path and the Timely Reinforcements as well as Porphyry Nodes seems to often buy me enough time to stabilize. I may want another answer to Lili, either pierce, O-ring, or maybe something like Faith's Fetters that deals with two copies of Liliana and can't be decayed.

I just played in a 6 player FNM :-) with the following list from Robert Wilkinson with a few lands and sideboard cards changed that I don't own:

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Flooded Strand
2 Force of Will
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Humility
7 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
3 Plains
3 Rest in Peace
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
3 Tundra

SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Energy Field
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Terminus

My two wins were against black/white Stoneblade decks were I felt advantaged because I could manage the discard somewhat with Top, Brainstorm and Enlightened Tutor while they couldn't do much against Rip+Field and Humility was also very good.
I had no idea how to sideboard there however. I brought out 2x Force of Will and 2xCounterbalance, Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere and brought in Ensnaring Bridge, Elspeth and 2x Entreat the Angels, Terminus and Energy Field but I am not sure if that is best.

My loss was against UWB Stoneblade where I started on the play with Top (he did a Ponder) but got my Counterbalance countered with a Force of Will and later used my top to to draw Jace but he countered it and played his own Jace, putting my Top to the bottom and then I lost to Jace + Stoneforge Mystic. I have no idea how to sideboard here as well. My idea was to board out Rip+Field+Helm because I felt like it was too fragile against counterspells+discard and I expected him to board out Snapcaster Mage because he knew I had RiP and boarded in Counterspells, Elspeth and Entreat but this didn't work out because he left his Snapcasters in and used it to counter my spells and overwhelmed me with different threats like in game 1. As I am really bad with this deck I am open for all help for improving my play and/or deck list so feel free to give me advice! I feel like the deck could maybe use a "transformational" Stoneblade sideboard because everyone boarded his Swords to Plowshares out against me and Stoneforge dodges spell pierce. It was really hard to find room to sideboard in the entreat the angels (my thought was too board it in when I don't play against very fast decks) but I felt maybe a Baneslayer Angel would be really nice in the sideboard. I felt like the deck has big problems against pithing needle on helm because then your only win condition left is Jace which you cannot protect against creatures. Also I felt there was so much discard around that some protection from it would be useful but I don't know which exactly.

I recently have been testing uw shells of all sorts and I think the miracle mechanic is actually what traditional control decks needs to fix its bad matchups especially Terminus.
So I have playing a more landstill version of miracles since the eot sweep for one mana lets you really set up a landstill lock out with mishras and crucible of worlds. this tkype of deck really lets you grind out people but keep your good combo matchup unlike jund. Here"s a rough draft for a list.

Main: 60
3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor (No explanation needed.)
2. Entreat the Angels (This card can make you go from having no board precence to winning.)
1. Crucible of Worlds (Attrition tool. Kinda our version of punishing fire.)
4. Brainstorm (Best card in the fromat.)
3. Standstill (Card advantage or stalling tool. Great on an empty board. Great way to recover from discard.)
3. Counterbalance (Card advantage engine or just straight up win against some decks.)
4. Sensei's Divining Top (Centerpiece of the deck makes your miracles instant speed and creates a lock with counterbalance.)
3. Spell Pierce (Defense against discard planeswalkers and combo. Way too versitile.)
3. Swords to Plowshares (Efficient creature removal for one w whats notto like.)
3. Terminus (This card really helps the deck against used to be bad match ups since it is possibly a wrath for one w at instant speed. Staves off aggro and lets you set up standstill or jace.)
2. Humility (Part of the mishra grind engine.)
2. Counterspell (A 2cc card for counterbalance and just lets you say no to anything that is counterable.)
1. Engineered Explosives (A recurable and searchable catch all for low cc pernaments.Beats Empty the Warrens.)
3. Force of Will (Necessary to survive against fast combo.)
2. Tundra
4. Flooded Strand
3. Scalding Tarn
2. Arid Mesa
2. Plains
3. Mishra's Factory (A clock against combo and attrition engine for the deck.)
5. Island
1. Academy Ruins (Recur crucible or EE.)
1. Karakas (Show and Tell tech.)

Sideboard: 15
1. Ethersworn Cannonist (Great against combo can be fetched with enlightened tutor.)
1. Ensnaring Bridge (Tech against Show and Tell and locks creature decks out that don't run artifact removal.)
3. Rest in Peace (Great against Goyf, Shaman, Snappy, and graveyard based decks also a combo peice.)
2. Energy Field (Great against tribal decks its much better to just lock them out and lawls against burn.)
1. Helm of Obedience (Transformational sideboard kill card. Great against Show and Tellif you have rest in peace already on the board.)
1. Enlightened Tutor (Tutors for combo peices or search for miser pernaments.)
2. Baneslayer Angel (Great against aggro and Jund.)
2. Detention Sphere (Catch all and good against Show and Tell.)
1. Force of Will (The 4th Force for the combo matchups and also helps protect your combo.)
1. Supreme Verdict (Great against blue tempo decks such as rug and merfolk.)

There is my list and card explanations. Let me know what you think.