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The only Garruk worth mentioning for this deck is Primal Hunter. His effects are too powerful if you can afford the time and cost to set him up.
Shroud is the most relevant feature of any creature against UW Miracle. They still pack StP + Snap so we have to force them into Terminus to keep anything on the board.
I don't understand why you would use up most of your sideboard in order to play a 2-of in the maindeck. Surely 4x Green Sun's Zenith is enough creature tutor utility.
Planeswalkers are great, especially against the control decks. I almost am a fan of GBU to just play Jace because he's that good, but that's a reasonable strain on the manabase :P (I suppose a single Trygon Predator is not a bad Zenith target too.)
I'll be trying out a one of Primal Hunter this Wednesday. Hopefully he does work, because he seems sweet, but his mana cost seems so prohibitive in a 3 color deck
How firm do you feel about Tsunami? Why not run additional Planeswalkers? It seems like Planeswalkers may win you the game, while Tsunami is more about not losing it. Tsunami still leaves Plains, Karakas, Glacial Fortress, etc. behind. What are your thoughts on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Tsunami is a beast. I'll quote this from Arianhod since I asked a similar question last month:
Planeswalkers will have nice little Bitterblossom effects if you don't have a board state (which is usually how you are against UW Miracles, apparently), generally making low yet consistent on a late game board. They're certainly strong, but won't have a game shattering influence on the board.Quote:
Oh, I know which one's better, and the answer is Tsunami by a mile. Blue players are very aware of Choke, since Maverick's been pushing their ass in with it for the better part of a year now, and while it does hurt them, they can usually find ways to squirrel their way out of it (ie, Sword of Feast and Famine untapping all of their shit). Tsunami is so much better vs High Tide it's not even funny, and it is actually functionally a win condition vs a lot of blue decks....especially late in the game when they've got most of their mana-producing lands out of their deck already. Decks that run the 8x fetch 4x Waste 8x mana-producing lands type of mana base are especially weak to Tsunami, because they literally have no ability to do -anything- after a Tsunami lands, whereas if you have Choke out, they can usually find a way to Disenchant it or some other bs. Sword is an aforementioned problem, especially since that card is already good vs us. I'll be honest -- I also really like the psychological warfare effect that Tsunami has on an opponent. If Choke is out, it can actually make your opponent more alert as they frantically try to find a way out of it. Tsunami just makes them feel defeated as they sit there with maybe one or two permanents in play compared to your board state. It can often actually win games just from the demoralization factor alone. Additionally, Tsunami is very hard to counterbalance, which is sometimes relevant. Sure, Rector's hard to as well, but I don't like leaning on Rector too heavily because I'm always worried that my opponent will know her achilles heel....which like maybe 15% of legacy players ACTUALLY know, but I still worry about it. Tsunami's done a whole lot of work for me when the meta's right for it (which, being legacy, it frequently is). I'd definitely recommend trying it out before dismissing it out of hand.
Tsunami will make it impossible for them to win, especially considering how mana hungry UW Miracles can be.
Seems to me that Cranial Extraction (and its brother) should be beastly vs Miracles as well. Jace, Terminus, and Entreat are all solid targets. It's worth pointing out that all of these cards cost 4 (Rector, Tsunami, Cranial). This can serve as a passive deterrent to Jace, because they'll have to keep him floating around the top of their deck rather than casting him. Also, it's very much worth remembering Extirpate for the mandatory shuffle. If they're activating a draw off of Top, it doesn't really matter what random thing is in their graveyard -- make them get rid of it! It also strands them with a 1-drop on top for CB, if you're trying to resolve something. If we make it to the lategame and they don't have a CB=3 floating around, Nightmare's card advantage will absolutely wreck them. I mean, if you're really worried about Miracle Whip, you could also run some Explosives alongside Deed. It dodges CB like a champ (and/or can come down @0 before CB lock is established).
I agree as far as the planeswalkers are concerned. Elspeth and big Garruk are the two best for generating board state, although Elsepth only really becomes a clock with a dude already in play. Both of them still give the Miracle Whip player plenty of time to set up a lethal EoT ETA, and while Elspeth is decent at fighting Jace, I don't think that either is really amazing in the matchup.
Sigarda and Thragtusk are both where you want to be in the matchup. Thrun is still useless. Sigarda is bigger than an ETA token, can't be Swordsed or Jaced, and swings for huge chunks over the astonished head of Tiago. She can be Terminus'd, but if she's your only creature in play, so what. You can Zenith her out again, and if you force them to use one of their draw steps (or a Top trigger) for a 1-for-1, you're winning. 'Tusk is the same way, although he leaves a beater behind. It's worth remembering that if you're scared of Swords on your 'Tusk, leave your Phyrexian Tower open. Seems like most Miracle lists don't run Wasteland, so Tower should do a good job of protecting from Swords.
By the by - this weekend I had a combo player try to Surgical my Cranial Extractions again. If you aren't running the 1/1 split with Memoricide, I strongly recommend it. Combo players really, REALLY don't like that effect, and they -will- strive their utmost to get rid of it.
In addition to Cranial Extraction and Memoricide, which are beasts don't forget Sadistic Sacrement. In some match ups removing 3 (or 15) cards spells GG most of the time.
Nobody responded later, maybe because it was a stupid question I don't know, but should Griselbrand get any love in this deck?
/PollePotDK
Sorry -- I didn't notice it. The issue with Sad Sac is the triple black mana cost. While it packs much more of a punch lategame, Cranial can do the same thing looped sufficiently with Eternal Witness, and is so, so much easier to cast in the early turns. Being able to take different cards is good and all, but you can only take 3 with SadSac, which is a problem. This isn't Vintage, where taking their Time Vault, Yawg Will, and Tinker Robot is pretty sweet. If you SadSac High Tide, they still have a Time Spiral left. Sneak still has a Sneak. Etc. There's too many 4-ofs in legacy for SadSac to work well IMO.
Griselbrand is seeing some play in the 4cc Gifts version I've been working on -- Gifts-> Rites + GriselB is pretty sweet. That version is still really rough, though. As for other versions....it's a little tricky to hardcast, although it can obviously be done. BBBB is rough, not the fact that it costs 8. The other problem is that the meta is kind of prepared for him at the moment, which is why he's nice in the Gifts version with Rites....you can always grab Sun Titan or some other obnoxious fatty instead, if your opponent has Karakas. As it stands, Karakas is basically dead vs us (can't target Sigarda). No reason to make it live, when it's all over the place right now. I think that if you want a big fat 7+ black creature, Rune-Scarred Demon is probably everything you want but better.
I've thought of throwing Sac in the sideboard as a means for hurting Progentitus decks. The NO/Prog deck told me after I Cranialed for Progenitus that he thought about siding out Prog for Terastodon...but I guess the correct play was to Cranial for Natural Order anyway. Otherwise I agree on the BBB and 3 vs 4 ordeal. It might be better in a GB version that capitalizes on mana ramp (Culling the Weak!) to get crazy mana early and cripple any deck out there.
I've tried Griselbrand in Rector but his high cost and BBBB are hard to come by even for us, and games where I swapped him directly for Grave Titan I would inevitably draw Griselbrand with 6 mana open. Again, GB for massive mana could probably use him, but the deck is by and large much different than the typical Nic Fit deck slung around these parts.
Good point on the 1/1 split, I never really understood why you did that, haha.
Alright folks, I've got something pretty sweet for you. I uploaded what I've got complete of the Nic Fit Complete Primer to pastebin. It's unfinished, but I figured that rather than make you all wait another month while I work on it, I'd let you guys see where it's at.
Without further ado:
http://pastebin.com/vnuGCS3S
Enjoy!
Maybe its just in my meta it makes sense - vs ANT/TES, Micracle or Enchantress it works wonders and triple black has never been a problem. I also run 2 Phyrexian Towers because the ramp it gives is insane.
Being able to take out Key spells, thats 1-2 offs wincons/lock pieces makes sense to me.
I agree with you ón Griselbrand.
/PollePotDK
Nice update! I would prefer that you put the deck archtypes first and their explanations , then delve into determining what cards are good and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Love that you start it off with the Fit Rant. Looks great!
After a brief going over the beginning (at work, sadly) you reminded me that New Frontiers exists...might have to see if its applicable to anything I have brewing.
Kevin,
Your primer was really, really good. I read through the whole thing and I appreciate you releasing it before you finished the lower sections. It does a great job tracking the evolution of the deck and discussing the strengths and weaknesses of certain variations of the deck, including the benefits/drawbacks of the inclusions of certain cards. A big thank you!
What does everyone think of running Sarkhan Vol or Sarkhan the Mad in the Jund version as a 5th or 6th planeswalker? Assuming 2/3 Liliana, 1/2 Garruk, Primal Hunter (probably 3 PWs main and another 2 in the board). I've considered running Sarkhan Vol in the main. The haste ability is relevant, especially off of a GSZ. The creature steal ability is also relevant and can throw off blocking math in a creature mirror (and can be really good with P. Tower or Cabal Therapy), and the -6 seems highly relevant vs. control decks.
Additionally, Sarkhan the Mad seemed good with Top. His 0 ability appears to be a free card each turn (assuming land), or at worst, you flip your top and draw it for -1. StM's -2 could be useful vs. fatties, similar to Liliana's ability, although not as good. However, the -2 could also be used on your own creatures (say, saccing a Veteran Explorer for a 5/5 dragon). Finally, with Broodmate Dragon, the -4 ability is 8 to the dome, which is a nice alternative kill. I'm not a huge fan of StM, because he can't grow, but I guess that's why he's Mad.
After reading Qweerios post about Planeswalkers being necessary in the UW matchup, I got a little scarred and decided I needed to add some Planeswalkers (besides Liliana) to my list.
Here's my latest Jund build:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Broodmate Dragon
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
SB:
4 REB/Pyroblast
4 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Memoricide
2 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm
Should I cut the 4th GSZ for Scavenging Ooze? Unfortunately I don't have Thragtusk available so far, that card is pretty good from what I've heard.
Is Liliana of the Veil better than the 1-of Diabolic Edict? I have been a bit disappointed by Liliana recently...
Qweerios,Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
thank you for your ardent criticism, which has a lot of merit.
Coming from playing BUG Control, the first iteration of the blue list by Arianrhod drew me to Nic Fit because it seemed to solve a lot of problems I had with BUG, especially the dreaded situations in which you had a full grip but not the mana to cast stuff / blow stuff up with deed because you wastelanded your opponent and didn't find a Loam. Hence, I thought the Explorer/Therapy engine would really help getting faster to a point at which I would be able to cast my answers (especially around Daze and Spell Pierce).
Arianrhod pretty much nailed it when he said that I am actually looking to rework BUG Control using the Explorer/Therapy engine, and that's what I'm planning on doing. I don't know whether that's a viable route, but I am willing to find out. I feel that your deck wants to be doing something different from my deck (and that my idea is way more questionable, but I'm a little stubborn)
The other thing is, that traditional BUG Control does an awful lot of 1 on 1 trading until it can control the game. With Explorer/Therapy, Deed, Strix, Witness, a lot of plays are 2 for 1s. Building a BUG Control list on the foundations of Nic Fit looks pretty appealing to me.
I will test a few things next week and report on the results, since I still think that the core of the deck is Nic Fit. Since I want to be able to win with Jace, I need counters maindeck. I also want Vendilion Clique for a little more beats and midgame Therapies. I also agree on 4 Brianstorm possibly being too much. I may try a split.
RE: Primer. What a monster of a primer. Awesome work. Thank you, Arianrhod.
And it isn't even done yet =) Thanks all.
@Wortwelt -- I really like the idea of Clique alongside Therapy. Seems pretty hot midgame. I will also caution you, though -- being -able- to win with Jace is fine, but in the Nic Fit style of deck, he's often better served as a Brainstorm-bot, because your other cards tend to win faster. If time is an issue as you develop and test, keep that in mind.
@Alexeezay -- I like the Bonfires. I have a feeling you're going to side them out a lot, but they're still pretty nifty. Also, imagine the look on your opponent's (and everyone around you) face when you Top a Bonfire after your opponent Tops an Entreat. D'oh!
Edict is better than Liliana if you're -strictly- looking for a sacrifice card, because you can regrow it with Witness without having to eat a card to Lily in the process. However, Lily only has to nom once to be a second Edict. I kind of think she wins the fight against Edict, honestly.
I feel like if I were to cut anything for the Ooze, it would be Wickerbough. You have Pulse and Deed for artifact and enchantment concerns....I don't think you need a dude that kills those things too.
@W_W -- you don't want either Sarkhan if you're specifically worried about Miracle Whip. Vol is better vs like Show and Tell I guess? To hilarious effect. The Mad seems good vs Stoneblade as a functional draw engine. Even in those matchups, however, I'm not sure that you can't just do better. Pretty sure Primal Hunter is just the best there is for vs Stoneblade and Miracles....+1 to make a 3/3 generates board presence really fast, and if they've got you out-attritioned, you can draw a bunch of cards off of him and get gas back.
Thanks, and makes sense. I'm going to try a few different configurations this weekend. I also considered Karn for that slot. The 7 colorless mana doesn't seem too prohibitive and Karn is nice because it provides colorless removal, a 'discard' effect, and it has the ability to restart the game (although I've always found after I got Karn at high enough loyalty to restart the game, the +4's usually rendered a game reset unnecessary).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Randomly, I've been playing against aggro-creature decks online (Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins) and I haven't dropped a game (6-0, 3-0). Deed and 2 Damnations from the board just prove too powerful.
Admittedly, I've not been able to test the combo match or control match.
Against the combo match, I've been debating the number of non-Therapy discard effects to run in the main/board. I was running 4 Lightning Bolts / 2 Thoughtseize main, but I recently switched to 3 Lightning Bolts / 3 Thoughtseize, based mainly our of fear for combo match ups. I also run the 4th Thoughtseize in the board.
Qweerios comments scarred me into running additional Planeswalkers. I was running 3 Liliana. Now I'm between 2/3 Liliana, 1/2 Garruk, and the possibility of 1 Sarkhan or Karn (3 main / 2 board). I don't like Tsunami in the board, so I'm considering replacing those slots with additional Planeswalker. Admittedly, Tsunami is better than Choke. However, it falls victim to the same anti-tech run by UW decks. In order to beat Choke, UW decks are running Glacial Fortress and other non-island lands. Because we don't run Wasteland, Glacial Fortress is good. I would rather draw a Planeswalker and have a proactive chance at victory vs. drawing a Tsunami and having a reactive chance at not losing.
Hello fellow Nic-Fitters,
I have a simple, and somewhat noobish, question for discussion.
How proper is it to cut some number of Cabal Therapies games 2/3 vs. Aggro decks or creature-based decks like Maverick? I realize the synergy between Therapy and Veteran Explorer, however, when your opponent's deck is based around bashing you for 20 with creature attacks, we can usually chump with Explorer to trigger his effect. Additionally, vs. decks like Affinity, they are unlikely to be holding any cards in their hands.
Assuming we win game 1, how appropriate is it to remove 2 Cabal Therapies on the draw vs. Affinity, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Burn, or Maverick, assuming we will add them back in on the play?
In a nutshell, is it ever proper to board out some number of Cabal Therapy, even if you will board them back in when you are on the play? Or, are a full playset of Cabal Therapie and Veteran Explorers so essential to the deck that they are never touched? (However, Veteran Explorers come out vs. certain decks like High Tide - what other decks to Veteran Explorers come out against? Do we board out Veteran vs. the Mirror?)
I nearly always keep my full Cabal Therapy package game 2 against aggro decks. For two main reasons :
1. I don't think I have cards that improve my matchup against aggro decks in my sideboard (because Nic Fit naturally IS an aggro creature-based deck killer). The only exceptions are the Red Elemental Blasts that I side in against Merfolk in the red version of Nic Fit.
2. A Cabal Therapy T1 is always a great move game 2 : you already know your opponent's main threats. And even if you don't hit, you get information, and the Cabal in the graveyard is of course never a dead card. And to be honest, I don't always have the chance to have a Veteran Explorer or a Top in my opening hand, so it's sometimes my only T1 spell :)