[Deck] bUrg Tempo

Top 8'd a tournament yesterday with this list. I don't know that it's a tempo deck much anymore (:frown:) but I very much enjoy playing it.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

Rd1: 2-1 Shardless BUG
Rd2: 2-0 ANT
Rd3: 0-2 Death and Taxes
Rd4: 2-1 Reanimator
Rd5: ID Grixis Delver
Top 8: 1-2 Manaless Dredge.

Any advice on how to beat DnT? My opponent was playing my DnT deck that I loaned out to him, and I certainly was never worried about a Delver deck when I played DnT. Game 1 I had 0 lands and a revokered DRS by turn 3, and game 2 started off with a DRS -> Goyf -> TNN -> 2x Lightning Bolt and I still got absolutely slaughtered.

I guess my list is not very original, but Counterspell was excellent as were Snare and Snapcaster, but that could be more a meta thing: we're in combo hell at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Top 8'd a tournament yesterday with this list. I don't know that it's a tempo deck much anymore (:frown:) but I very much enjoy playing it.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

Rd1: 2-1 Shardless BUG
Rd2: 2-0 ANT
Rd3: 0-2 Death and Taxes
Rd4: 2-1 Reanimator
Rd5: ID Grixis Delver
Top 8: 1-2 Manaless Dredge.

Any advice on how to beat DnT? My opponent was playing my DnT deck that I loaned out to him, and I certainly was never worried about a Delver deck when I played DnT. Game 1 I had 0 lands and a revokered DRS by turn 3, and game 2 started off with a DRS -> Goyf -> TNN -> 2x Lightning Bolt and I still got absolutely slaughtered.

I guess my list is not very original, but Counterspell was excellent as were Snare and Snapcaster, but that could be more a meta thing: we're in combo hell at the moment.

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Get a second piece of hate against DnT? I like Sulphur Elemental more than Dread of Night, at least it's good against Miracles. Also, Darkblast just as narrow but much weaker.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

Hi,
gratz to your solid finish. A really freaky list with the 1off Izzet Charm/Counterspell/Kolaghans Command you played :wink:

Currently I´m also moving to a more "midrangey/controlish" list with 2 TNN/2 SCM & 3 TS.

One question, how happy were you with your 2 Spell Pierces in the MD? I played 2-3 Pierces in the main over the last 1 year or something and I am still not super happy about them and felt that it is the most weak card in the main. I boarded them out alot. I only needed them for the combo & burn MU´s but thats it. Plus combo is not that present atm...
That´s the reason I try 3 Thoughtseize in place of 3 Spell Pierce right now because they´re better vs DnT, Elves and Eldrazi for example and also good vs combo if I face one.
I played a 4c Delver list without Goyfs and 3 TS at GP Lille last year (Goddick DTT build) and found the TS ok.

Whats your opinion/experience on that?

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Thanks, Manipulato! I think 1-ofs in a cantrips + Snapcaster deck make sense because you see a lot of cards and can find the answer you need. Regarding the 1-ofs you mentioned, Counterspell has been the strongest. It's great against Miracles and often an excellent topdeck. Paired with Snapcaster, it can buy you the tempo you need. Kolaghan's Command goes from being insane against DnT/Batterskull strategies, Chalice decks, and Shardless BUG to a do-nothing card in some matchups, so it's more of a metagame call. :1::b::r: is greedy, but when K-Command is good, it's great! Izzet Charm is the one I'm on the fence about. I've used all three modes to fine effect, and it's a blue card to pitch to Force of Will. But it's inefficient, especially leaving up :u::r: for the Spell Pierce effect. I'm leaving it for now, but I'm considering the following replacements:

- Abrupt Decay #3
- Daze #4
- Spell Snare
- Hymn to Tourach

As for Spell Pierce, I've found them to be solid but not spectacular. They're really good when people play around Daze but don't suspect Pierce, and often people aren't in a position to play around Pierce at all. Countering removal on your threats is big game, and it's something that Thoughtseize can't do. It's also nice to have more answers to early haymakers like Chalice and Blood Moon. They also provide more tempo than Thoughtseize, as the opponent invests mana in the spell you answer. At the very least, Spell Pierce is blue. But Thoughtseize definitely belongs in the 75 for the reasons you mentioned, so I could see switching the main/side split depending on what you expect to face.

And I'm playing a Vendilion Clique in the sideboard now and love it. There are lots of matches where I want to take out Anglers and/or TNNs, so having a disruptive replacement threat feels great. I'm looking for a good creature sweeper and am unsure about Marsh Casualties. Fire Covenant and Toxic Deluge are also in the running for me, but I'm not sure. Maybe it's better off as a Diabolic Edict for lands and opposing TNNs, though. With Snapcasters, I can 1-for-1 a lot, so maybe a sweeper isn't necessary to catch up.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by theMonster

Thanks, Manipulato! I think 1-ofs in a cantrips + Snapcaster deck make sense because you see a lot of cards and can find the answer you need. Regarding the 1-ofs you mentioned, Counterspell has been the strongest. It's great against Miracles and often an excellent topdeck. Paired with Snapcaster, it can buy you the tempo you need. Kolaghan's Command goes from being insane against DnT/Batterskull strategies, Chalice decks, and Shardless BUG to a do-nothing card in some matchups, so it's more of a metagame call. :1::b::r: is greedy, but when K-Command is good, it's great! Izzet Charm is the one I'm on the fence about. I've used all three modes to fine effect, and it's a blue card to pitch to Force of Will. But it's inefficient, especially leaving up :u::r: for the Spell Pierce effect. I'm leaving it for now, but I'm considering the following replacements:

- Abrupt Decay #3
- Daze #4
- Spell Snare
- Hymn to Tourach

As for Spell Pierce, I've found them to be solid but not spectacular. They're really good when people play around Daze but don't suspect Pierce, and often people aren't in a position to play around Pierce at all. Countering removal on your threats is big game, and it's something that Thoughtseize can't do. It's also nice to have more answers to early haymakers like Chalice and Blood Moon. They also provide more tempo than Thoughtseize, as the opponent invests mana in the spell you answer. At the very least, Spell Pierce is blue. But Thoughtseize definitely belongs in the 75 for the reasons you mentioned, so I could see switching the main/side split depending on what you expect to face.

And I'm playing a Vendilion Clique in the sideboard now and love it. There are lots of matches where I want to take out Anglers and/or TNNs, so having a disruptive replacement threat feels great. I'm looking for a good creature sweeper and am unsure about Marsh Casualties. Fire Covenant and Toxic Deluge are also in the running for me, but I'm not sure. Maybe it's better off as a Diabolic Edict for lands and opposing TNNs, though. With Snapcasters, I can 1-for-1 a lot, so maybe a sweeper isn't necessary to catch up.

Thoughts?

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Hi, thx for your answer.
Sure countering removal on your creatures is good but it rarely happened outside of Delver mirrors because AD from the BGx decks cant be countered & white decks have instant removal for W and can play around it easily.

Another problem I recognized is that with the more expensive mana curve (TNN, SCM, Truths G2/3) it's super hard to hold Pierce mana open. You also can "counter" a removal spell when you play the TS first and then your beater, it's a loss of tempo like all discard spells for sure but more versatile and optimal especially in those more midrangey TNN/SCM builds. It also ups the Sorcery count for Goyf which I like. My blue count with 24 cards is still really solid. Now I'm playing 2 Flusterstorm in the SB to have a pierce effect when needed.

Countering a T1 Chalice from your oponent is very unlikely because a: Your on the draw and have no mana on the table or b: tapping out T1 for Delver, Shaman or Ponder. And even here TS would be able to discard the Chalice. I'm playing 3 AD MD which is a must in my opinion, so troublesome permanents like Chalice, Jitte, or Balance are managable even if they resolve.

Here's my current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Painful Truths
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge

But I'm currently not sold on a 2nd Needle & a 2nd Dismember, thinking about replacing those 2nd copies with 1 Null Rod & 1 Murderous Cut.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

Sure! Brainstorm before Dredge work very well.

My list include only the card with a directly interation with yard.

Thanks for advice!

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Sure, Delving the top cards you didn't want to shuffle is fine but the real interaction between Loam and Brainstorm is getting back 3 fetches for 1 Loam, drawing 3 cards off Brainstorm and then landing a fetch and shuffle the other 2 in the deck. That is how Loam turns Brainstorm into Ancestral Recall.

@theMonster,





Jitte is good against Jund. You don't side out your creatures because they play removal right? Then you shouldn't prevent yourself from playing strong cards against them because they can deal with them.





FoW is better than Marsh Casualties against Infect. Countering the threat is much easier than trying to remove it through all their Rotations and Vines/pump spells.





Against Lands I would have kept Bolt over KCommand and Spell Pierce. Taxing counters are really bad except for T1 Exploration.





Against Storm, the only variant that realistically goes EtW is TES. Bolts are better than Decay and Casualties because 1 mana to remove Xantid Swarm is night and day. Bolt to the face is a bonus.





Aluren is a combo deck with value creatures. FoW is better than GftT here.





If I may comment on your list, I like it and I love it when people do well experimenting with cool cards. First, I think you shouldn't move away from your tempo shell by cutting the 4th Daze and 4th Wasteland. After all, you are a Delver deck with Waste, DRS, Angler, Bolts and FoW and your best plays will always depend on maximizing those cards because they are your best line of play. Going big on flex slots is a great way to mitigate your fragile lategame and easing on the color spread (TNN>Goyf, KCommand>Decay). I also think Izzet Charm is too janky for a legacy deck that can afford to play much more powerful cards. 3 Snaps might be 1 too many (for my taste). I would try to squeeze in 1 Dismember (or even Terminate) mainboard as it would complement your main tempo plan and give you another variety target for Snap that can handle Anglers and Eldrazis. I also believe you could benefit from 1 Jace in your SB. I also believe you could benefit from 1 Jace in your SB. Maybe you could benefit from a Taiga over the 2nd Tropical Island? With only 2 Decay main and USea as your main land, Taiga fills the slot perfectly. This little change might force you to play Snare over Counterspell though.







Congrats on the list and your tournament. Your boarding plans were more reasonable than you perhaps thought.

@Manipulato, all fair points, especially the sorcery count for Goyf. Since I'm running Angler instead, I actively want fewer sorceries against opposing Goyfs. Thoughtseize timing can be awkward against blue decks, too, as they can Brainstorm in response. I think there are merits to both Seize and Pierce, and I like having access to both in the 75.

Your list looks good! I like Go for the Throat/Murderous Cut over a second Dismember, as the life loss matters against decks like Eldrazi. The two Pithing Needles have worked great for me because they help against Lands as well as Miracles (and even DnT and Infect). Do you like Golgari Charm right now? I've found that DnT boards out some number of 1-toughness dudes against us in fear of that effect, so I've been skimping on them. Perhaps I should reconsider, though.

@Qweerios, thanks a lot for the feedback. I'll implement your sideboarding guide. And I agree with you on Izzet Charm. It's won me games, for sure, but so would a more narrow answer. I find that I used it mostly for the Shock effect, so perhaps Terminate/Dismember is the way to go. Jace in the sideboard is interesting - never considered that. I assume it's for Miracles but also, say, Shardless(?). I have yet to test the Taiga 'cuz I don't own Scalding Tarns - reprint 'em, please! - but I've had the same hunch about it for a while now. Gonna test a few configurations this week and see what I come up with. Still experimenting with some sideboard slots, so we'll see.

Thanks, y'all!

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Originally Posted by theMonster

@Manipulato, all fair points, especially the sorcery count for Goyf. Since I'm running Angler instead, I actively want fewer sorceries against opposing Goyfs. Thoughtseize timing can be awkward against blue decks, too, as they can Brainstorm in response. I think there are merits to both Seize and Pierce, and I like having access to both in the 75.

Your list looks good! I like Go for the Throat/Murderous Cut over a second Dismember, as the life loss matters against decks like Eldrazi. The two Pithing Needles have worked great for me because they help against Lands as well as Miracles (and even DnT and Infect). Do you like Golgari Charm right now? I've found that DnT boards out some number of 1-toughness dudes against us in fear of that effect, so I've been skimping on them. Perhaps I should reconsider, though.

@Qweerios, thanks a lot for the feedback. I'll implement your sideboarding guide. And I agree with you on Izzet Charm. It's won me games, for sure, but so would a more narrow answer. I find that I used it mostly for the Shock effect, so perhaps Terminate/Dismember is the way to go. Jace in the sideboard is interesting - never considered that. I assume it's for Miracles but also, say, Shardless(?). I have yet to test the Taiga 'cuz I don't own Scalding Tarns - reprint 'em, please! - but I've had the same hunch about it for a while now. Gonna test a few configurations this week and see what I come up with. Still experimenting with some sideboard slots, so we'll see.

Thanks, y'all!

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About the Charm topic...
I think Golgari Charm is still good vs them. Even if they take out some numbers of x/1s they still have enough creatures who die to the charm (4 Mother, 4 Thalia, 4 Flickerwisp, here and there a Mangara, Spirit or Revoker). They cant take out all of there creatures vs us...And things like Mother, Thalia, Flickerwisp are too important for them to cut. In generel they can bring in maybe 2 Path & 2 RIP, so 4 Cards which means they can take out maybe 2-3 Revoker and 1-2 Spirits...Rest still dies...

It´s also not just for the DnT MU, also for the Elves/Maverick MU where I really want a sweeper...

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

About the Charm topic...
I think Golgari Charm is still good vs them. Even if they take out some numbers of x/1s they still have enough creatures who die to the charm (4 Mother, 4 Thalia, 4 Flickerwisp, here and there a Mangara, Spirit or Revoker). They cant take out all of there creatures vs us...And things like Mother, Thalia, Flickerwisp are too important for them to cut. In generel they can bring in maybe 2 Path & 2 RIP, so 4 Cards which means they can take out maybe 2-3 Revoker and 1-2 Spirits...Rest still dies...

It´s also not just for the DnT MU, also for the Elves/Maverick MU where I really want a sweeper...

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Electrickery, Sulfur Elemental, and Dread of Night are all contenders as well. I would favor red cards for his version over black and green cards.

Only electrickery fits the bill as he's looking for splash damage against Elves and Maverick...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Golgari Charm also has splash damage on TNN (yours and theirs). Rough // Tumble would be the red alternative.

Electrickery does not kill an active Mother because it deals damage instead of -1/-1. Means he can safe a Thalia or Flickerwisp which sucks.

Rough//Tumble would not just kill my own TNN/SCM, it would also kill all my Deathrite Shamans which also sucks. It's just playable in RUG & UR Delver

Sulfur Elemental & Dread of Night are super vs DnT but they do nothing vs Elves & Maverick, means they are really narrow & unflexible answers. I face Elves alot.

Fire Covenant would also be possible but it costs RB1 which is more expensive & it also "just" deals damage which sucks vs Mother. The huge life loss can also be problematic. Maybe a 1/1 split between Charm & Covenent would be fine.

I was running Marsh Casualties in the -1/-1 spot. I loved the effect but disliked the sorcery speed. :b::b: wasn't too big a problem because I run three Underground Seas. I've tried all the cards mentioned and can't settle on one. Golgari Charm has the added benefit of being an out to cards like Blood Moon (floating mana in response, like with Abrupt Decay) and the rare Leyline of the Void, but killing my own 1-toughness threats hurts. Electrickery is best if you see no opposing TNNs and Moms - a tough ask. I'm gonna keep testing Casualties 'cuz I've played with that one the least.

Have not had an opportunity to play any large events lately, but I've been playing a list modified from Ben Friedman's 4C Snapcaster-heavy build with pretty good success locally and in testing. Here's where I am currently:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Electrickery
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique

In regards to DnT: I've settled on Sulfur Elemental + Electrickery as my SB interaction of choice. They simply have the widest applications and I often will be fetching for Volcanic early in the matchup.

A few notes on specific cards/changes to Ben's list:

- I found his setup of 4 DRS, 3 SCM, 2 Gurmag to simply be too taxing on the GY, especially in the DRS mirrors. I would often find myself Delving away the majority of my GY to get an Angler down only to have Snapcaster rot in my hand without any impactful targets. I cut one SCM early in testing but honestly they've over-performed in general so decided to cut an Angler instead. Gurmag is obviously extremely powerful and ends a lot of games, but with 2x TNN, the second one feels less necessary than is does in Grixis Pyro shells.

- With the blue finishers, FoW is excellent (29 blue spells)

- Edit: Doesn't work this way! Counting SCM as a 3-drop is a bit of an overstatement. I've had plenty of meaningful, early interaction (especially against combo) leveraging SCM>Daze or SCM>FoW. Getting to untap after those interactions with a clock already in play is a huge tempo advantage. Also, sometimes Ambush Viper is good enough.

- My 4 flex-spot singletons have really played extremely well with Snapcaster. Flusterstorm and Counterspell in particular have easily earned their spots. Playing the singleton Probe is something I've done for a long time and I find the information alone to be well worth the spot.

- Actively protecting your Underground Seas is definitely something to keep in mind. I will often lead with Tropical Island on Turn 1 as Wasteland-bait + it casts all the one-drops.

- I've used Wasteland for mana more than any other delver deck I can remember. Having both SCM and TNN using colorless is a nice way to get yourself to 3 mana at times without having to use your final fetch land.

As with all Delver variants, there are pros and cons. The mana/curve are certainly greedy in comparison, but the list is seriously fun to play. As always, comments and feedback are welcome.

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Originally Posted by eldub

- Counting SCM as a 3-drop is a bit of an overstatement. I've had plenty of meaningful, early interaction (especially against combo) leveraging SCM>Daze or SCM>FoW. Getting to untap after those interactions with a clock already in play is a huge tempo advantage. Also, sometimes Ambush Viper is good enough.

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Just wanted to point out that I don't think SCM works the way you think it does. Alternate costs can't be paid for flashback.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Just wanted to point out that I don't think SCM works the way you think it does. Alternate costs can't be paid for flashback.

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You are correct, Snapcaster and Daze/Force/alt casting costs don't work that way.

"- Counting SCM as a 3-drop is a bit of an overstatement. I've had plenty of meaningful, early interaction (especially against combo) leveraging SCM>Daze or SCM>FoW. Getting to untap after those interactions with a clock already in play is a huge tempo advantage. Also, sometimes Ambush Viper is good enough."

That does not work how you think :wink: You can flashback your FoW for 7 mana with SCM and Daze for 4 mana, otherwise the card would be fucking insane :eek:
The ability works only with phyrexian mana spells like Dismember/Probe/Surgical...

I´m also playing a slightly changed Friedmann list atm but I still play Goyfs in the MD because you need the pressure vs many decks. Angler is not the same here like in Grixis because we just dont have enough 0-1 spells like Probe/Forked Bolt/Therapy to cast him T2/T3 for one mana and TNN is just super slow and clunky vs combo. The SCM are more "counterspells" in such MU´s and you cast them more as a answer to spells, 2 damage per turn is also not huge...
You need a clock like Goyf vs combo and even vs Infect, Burn or Delver MU´s to close the game out as soon as possible. There are not always those super fast Delver openings available, so 3 Goyf are a must for me personally. He´s also strong vs Eldrazi...
I played a Goyfless Delver build before and and struggled in the MU´s where speed is important.

Thanks for the heads up guys! :eek:

Playing a big tournament tomorrow, and I'm not sure which version of Delver I'm going to run. If I decide to play 4C, I wanted to get some last-minute feedback on my proposed list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Vendilion Clique

It's a little lower to the ground than my previous three-Snap version. I moved the K-Command to the sideboard, as I wanted to play fewer clunky cards in game 1. The question, I guess, is do I have enough pressure. With more velocity, Angler gets a little better and can probably come down a turn earlier than in the previous version.

I'm very unsure about the sideboard, notably the Casualties and Clique. In L.A.'s meta I should play a sweeper effect, as DnT and Elves are fairly well-represented. Mother of Runes (and the less common opposing TNN) make me want to go with Casualties, but do you think Electrickery is better? And I have no way to deal with a Marit Lage once it hits the board. Should I find room for a Diabolic Edict? Maybe in place of the third Surgical?

Thanks, guys!

Jarvis Yu is currently 7:0 with the 4c Snapcaster Ben Friedman list at Eternal Weekend in Columbus :cool: