[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Ok. On the Miracles topic, it seems there are 4 ways to fight it post board.

1. +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm
The first is Carsten Kotters way, where you fight with decay overload against Counterbalance and Hatebears. Next to that there is Xantid Swarm for the oops-I-win scenario where the opponent doesn't have a Swords/Terminus in time. A downside is that floating counters can be a problem when there is removal for swarm.

2. +3 Abrupt Decay, +3/4 Young Pyromancer or Dark Confidant, +X Xantid Swarm
The second way is popularised by Kai/Robert and overloads on creatures that win the game. Next to that you'll need some sort of removal against Counterbalance or Hatebears and 3 Decay is the minimum. The Pyromancer plan beats a Swords if played correctly, but doesn't always get there. Next to that the Pyromancer is pretty useless in other matchups nowadays.

3. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +2/3 Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle, +X Xantid Swarm
The same as the first one, however Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle nullify Sensei's Divining Top. Downsides are you can't use your own Top and Pithing Needle or Grip are often a little late as the Top has already granted a counter flooded hand to its controller. Next to that, Pithing Needle can get countered easily

4. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +1/2 Tendrils of Agony, +X Xanted Swarm
This is the reason I adres this topic in the first place. This isn't explored extensively in this thread (or I missed it). Xantid Swarm has the same issues as previously described.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested this and can give me some strategy-tips playing more Tendrils against this deck. Also, how is a second Past in Flames against this deck. Seems great, especially now Miracles is cutting Rest in Peace (Schonnegger 4ponder list)?

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I have been boarding in +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Tendrils of Agony for -1 Preordain, -4 Duress and -3 Cabal Therapy, -2 Lotus Petal.

You basically go on the Grinding Station plan and win once you find decay + swarm. It has been working out fairly well for me. (Although I switch between siding out a 2nd Lotus Petal and a 2nd Preordain but I think having more cantrips postboard is better than having Ad Nauseam being better)

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Ok. On the Miracles topic, it seems there are 4 ways to fight it post board.

1. +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm
The first is Carsten Kotters way, where you fight with decay overload against Counterbalance and Hatebears. Next to that there is Xantid Swarm for the oops-I-win scenario where the opponent doesn't have a Swords/Terminus in time. A downside is that floating counters can be a problem when there is removal for swarm.

2. +3 Abrupt Decay, +3/4 Young Pyromancer or Dark Confidant, +X Xantid Swarm
The second way is popularised by Kai/Robert and overloads on creatures that win the game. Next to that you'll need some sort of removal against Counterbalance or Hatebears and 3 Decay is the minimum. The Pyromancer plan beats a Swords if played correctly, but doesn't always get there. Next to that the Pyromancer is pretty useless in other matchups nowadays.

3. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +2/3 Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle, +X Xantid Swarm
The same as the first one, however Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle nullify Sensei's Divining Top. Downsides are you can't use your own Top and Pithing Needle or Grip are often a little late as the Top has already granted a counter flooded hand to its controller. Next to that, Pithing Needle can get countered easily

4. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +1/2 Tendrils of Agony, +X Xanted Swarm
This is the reason I adres this topic in the first place. This isn't explored extensively in this thread (or I missed it). Xantid Swarm has the same issues as previously described.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested this and can give me some strategy-tips playing more Tendrils against this deck. Also, how is a second Past in Flames against this deck. Seems great, especially now Miracles is cutting Rest in Peace (Schonnegger 4ponder list)?

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Your best start is +0 Xantid Swarm, the rest is difficult depends on experience and preference

A, lightweight setup - just X reactive spells like AD - just do your thing asap
B, heavyweight setup - Needle, reactive, 4c spells - doing A worse but ok with long game


I'm on B, 3 Needle, 2AD, 2Pyroblast, Extirpate, AdN, EtW, 2TOA, 2PiF (1 agains RIP esp on draw, could sub for Notion Thief) for specific interaction... for november results - 2:1 RiP, 2:0 RiP, 1:2 4P, 1:2 Rip, 2:1 4P, testing 6:2 in games vs Phillip, both matches I lost were super close against good players who knew I was on Ant... haven't played last 2 weeks but nothing has changed, I believe this is the best setup therefore I'm playing it

Swarm seems mediocre against miracles. My match against John I boarded in my decays and Bob's. Swarm just dies to his stuff, especially when I assume that he is keeping in a few terminus to deal with empty (which I had boarded out against him). And swarm doesn't stop CB.

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Originally Posted by Chaam

I have been boarding in +4 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Tendrils of Agony for -1 Preordain, -4 Duress and -3 Cabal Therapy, -2 Lotus Petal.

You basically go on the Grinding Station plan and win once you find decay + swarm. It has been working out fairly well for me. (Although I switch between siding out a 2nd Lotus Petal and a 2nd Preordain but I think having more cantrips postboard is better than having Ad Nauseam being better)

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You can't seriously advise to remove all discard against a control deck any rely on 3 xantids to beat FoW+Flusterstorm+creature removal+etc.

This "unexplored" strategy is called grinding station and it is actually an archetype on its own.
Basically it is Ant with more copies of Stormsspells such as Tendrils of Agony,Empty the Warrens and sometimes also Grapeshot (The first Grinding Station list had 1 Grapeshot to fight creatures if nessecary.)
The reason behind it is that Tendrils of Agony is a Spell which can't get countered by normal countermagic because of it's storm trigger. Instead of chaining rituals into an infernal tutor and hoping for green lights we cast tendrils of agony from our hand which is a really strong play.
Let me summarize which cards can interrupt a tendrils of agony on the stack:
-stifle
-flusterstorm

that's it. You see,this strategy is pretty good in a blue format as it is right now.Force of Will,Daze and Spell Snares are not at their best to interrupt this path.

To execute the combo we need a full grip of 7+1 spells (not lands) in our hand with tendrils of agony,rituals,discard and cantrips among them.
So it takes a couple of turns to assemble such a hand with 3+ lands in play.

Cast the spells in this order: Cantrips -> discard -> rituals -> tendrils of agony

This deck has also some week points, let's name some cards which are good versus grinding station:

-handdisruption in general unless we have access to past in flames

- vendillion clique during the comboturn (bye bye tendrils)

- flusterstorm/stifle/mind break traps,these are our number 1 discard targets

So what does that mean for us and the miracle matchup?
We have infinite time to sculpt the perfect hand with abrupt decay+discard+cantrips/senseis divining top+mana(carpet is great)/rituals+tendrils of agony

but on the other hand our opponent does also what his deck is designed to do: Collect as many counterspells in hand/on top of his library+counterbalance+sometimes hatebears+vendillion Clique.

Finally i can say that it works, go try it out yourself :)

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Ok. On the Miracles topic, it seems there are 4 ways to fight it post board.

4. +3/4 Abrupt Decay, +1/2 Tendrils of Agony, +X Xanted Swarm
This is the reason I adres this topic in the first place. This isn't explored extensively in this thread (or I missed it). Xantid Swarm has the same issues as previously described.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested this and can give me some strategy-tips playing more Tendrils against this deck. Also, how is a second Past in Flames against this deck. Seems great, especially now Miracles is cutting Rest in Peace (Schonnegger 4ponder list)?

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Number 4 is what I have been using to great success against miracles. I board +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Tendrils for -2 preordain; -2 cabal ritual/1 CR and -1 lotus petal/-2 lotus petal depending on if they are running dig through time and if I expect RIP to be boarded in.

2 Tendrils is enough for me since I also leave in empty the warrens. I am trying to go off with 2 different turns to win. The goal is to fuel enough for a modest storm count (3-7) and still leave a few cards in hand. As others have mentioned it is a technique that was used in grinding station, but this still allows for the deck to function as a normal build in game 1 so that most opponents sideboard in the typical manner.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You can't seriously advise to remove all discard against a control deck any rely on 3 xantids to beat FoW+Flusterstorm+creature removal+etc.

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That actually makes sense. I think my results have just been skewed due to variance and swarm being great when I played it (i.e. they didn't have removal). I probably should just be boarding in 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Tops and a Tendrils for 3 Cabal Therapy, 2 Preordain, 2 Lotus Petal. Possibly only side in the Xantid Swarm in game 3 if I don't see any Terminus/Swords in game 2.

So if most people don't board in Swarm vs Miracles then when do you board in Swarm? Just Sneak & Show and Reanimator?

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Originally Posted by Chaam

So if most people don't board in Swarm vs Miracles then when do you board in Swarm? Just Sneak & Show and Reanimator?

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+ Merfolk, and that's usually about it for me.

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Originally Posted by afb0032

+ Merfolk, and that's usually about it for me.

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Hmm if that's the case I could probably cut one and add either a 2nd Carpet of Flowers, 3rd Massacre, a singleton Karakas or 3rd Top. Or maybe cut all three and add three/four of those.

I think my new SB is probably going to look something like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night (my LGS doesn't have a 2nd Massacre, so using DoN until I can find one)
1 Karakas
1 Tendrils of Agony

Looks like the 3rd Top is the flex spot though and I probably should just run 2 Massacre/1 Dread of Night instead (once I grab a 2nd Massacre)

Note: I am currently running a standard ANT build with 2 islands, no Bayou, 7 Discard, 3 Preordain.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Swarm seems mediocre against miracles. My match against John I boarded in my decays and Bob's. Swarm just dies to his stuff, especially when I assume that he is keeping in a few terminus to deal with empty (which I had boarded out against him). And swarm doesn't stop CB.

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Some number of Swarm is really important against Miracles because they can just float countermagic on top of their deck to beat discard. Miracles and to a lesser extent Sneak and Show are the only reasons to run Swarm in the SB.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Swarm seems mediocre against miracles. My match against John I boarded in my decays and Bob's. Swarm just dies to his stuff, especially when I assume that he is keeping in a few terminus to deal with empty (which I had boarded out against him). And swarm doesn't stop CB.

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Bobs also just die to stuff. If they let Bob live for a turn or two you'll get two cards. If they let Swarm live for just a single turn, you have a pretty decent chance to just win the game right then and there.

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Originally Posted by afb0032

+ Merfolk, and that's usually about it for me.

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Against Chalice Merfolk, Swarm isn't that great anymore. Next to Chalice, Swarm also doesn't stop Cursecatcher (which they copy with Image by the way). I guess I would only board in 2/3 Abrupt Decay for his Chalices, Grafdiggers' Cage and Null Rod.

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Originally Posted by Chaam

Hmm if that's the case I could probably cut one and add either a 2nd Carpet of Flowers, 3rd Massacre, a singleton Karakas or 3rd Top. Or maybe cut all three and add three/four of those.

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Xantid is a beast against Reanimator and SneakShow/Omnitell. Carpet isn't good against Miracles (you already board a lot) and UR/UWR Delver (Daze is already laughable). Karakas is bad against Sneak Attack and Omnitell. Also, I think 2 SDT is enough against Miracles/BUG/Jund/Esper.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Some number of Swarm is really important against Miracles because they can just float countermagic on top of their deck to beat discard. Miracles and to a lesser extent Sneak and Show are the only reasons to run Swarm in the SB.

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No, Xantid Swarm's main use is for the Reanimator and SneakShow/Omnitell matchups. Being an option against Miracles is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

Your best start is +0 Xantid Swarm, the rest is difficult depends on experience and preference

A, lightweight setup - just X reactive spells like AD - just do your thing asap
B, heavyweight setup - Needle, reactive, 4c spells - doing A worse but ok with long game


I'm on B, 3 Needle, 2AD, 2Pyroblast, Extirpate, AdN, EtW, 2TOA, 2PiF (1 agains RIP esp on draw, could sub for Notion Thief) for specific interaction... for november results - 2:1 RiP, 2:0 RiP, 1:2 4P, 1:2 Rip, 2:1 4P, testing 6:2 in games vs Phillip, both matches I lost were super close against good players who knew I was on Ant... haven't played last 2 weeks but nothing has changed, I believe this is the best setup therefore I'm playing it

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Which cards or what strategy did the most for you? I didn't test the Pyroblasts, Extirpates or additional Past in Flames but they seem pretty good (especially Pyroblast). Notion Thief makes you vulnerable against creature hate which you normally wouldn't be with this plan (I love that). I don't think having 11 cards in my sideboard for a single matchup is where I want to be; I also want to beat MUD and hatebears.

I tested 3 Decay + 3 Needle/3Empty/3Pyromancer/2Tendrils. My conclusions:
- If Counterbalance lies for 3+ turns, you're in very bad shape. Usually at that rate there is a Clique in play plus countermagic in hand or floating on top.
- Land+Petal+Ritual+EtW is pretty awesome and I think Empty the Warrens is better than Young Pyromancer because it's a more immediate threat.
- Natural (in hand) Tendrils is a pain because it's weak to both Clique and Flusterstorm. Next to that it takes a lot of time to set up and in the meantime Miracles already deploys Countertop. End of turn Decay is pretty bad for your in-hand spell density and makes it harder to generate enough storm.
- Needle didn't make that much of a difference because you still have counterspells and Clique to worry about. Next to that, Snapcaster Mage can also float un-discardable counter magic.
- The most games I won against Miracles are because of Past in Flames (!) and Ad Nauseam. These felt like regular games where you take some of his protection and just go for it. Past in Flames flashback is real though and I won a couple of games just because of that.

I'm pretty upset by this matchup and I might be pretty negative about it. Offcourse there are a lot of noobish Miracles pilots out there, but there has to be a (near) perfect sideboard strategy against this deck.

EDIT: Dutch autocorrect is a bitch haha.
And for reference my list:

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Hurkyl's Recall (can be cut, but only for something that also stops MUD)
1 Pyroclasm (In addition to the Chains and the Massacre that removes Eidolon/Elves. Can be cut.)
3 Slots left

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Which cards or what strategy did the most for you? I didn't test the Pyroblasts, Extirpates or additional Past in Flames but they seem pretty good (especially Pyroblast). Notion Thief makes you vulnerable against creature hate which you normally wouldn't be with this plan (I love that). I don't think having 11 cards in my sideboard for a single matchup is where I want to be; I also want to beat MUD and hatebears.

2PIF - I can't recommend enough but that's a different chapter, EtW was the mwp for me, but still Needle is the key card (shuts down their development, CB acceptable when random), number of counterspells does not matter if the game gets long enough you can beat nearly anything and a single Flusterstorm can be paid for, I like Pyroblast because it's unusual (MM vs UWR) and changes dynamics of many scenarios (like casual onplay T2 CB) answers Clique and Snappy well and has wider MU application (unlike additional AD) in fact I SB 10 cards for the Miracles MU (2AD, 1Krosan Grip, 2 Pyro, AdN, 3 Needle, Extirpate) ... with EtW MUD (I'd never commit a SB card just for this MU, too fringe, very random) and hatebears are better, UWR is a joke w additional removal, D+T is winable without dedicated hate, I find Maverick very unconfortable and Deatblade difficult

I tested 3 Decay + 3 Needle/3Empty/3Pyromancer/2Tendrils. My conclusions:
- If Counterbalance lies for 3+ turns, you're in very bad shape. Usually at that rate there is a Clique in play plus countermagic in hand or floating on top.
depends on the situation, if they SB out EtA time does not matter until you're facing lethal
- Land+Petal+Ritual+EtW is pretty awesome and I think Empty the Warrens is better than Young Pyromancer because it's a more immediate threat.
I also believe so
- Natural (in hand) Tendrils is a pain because it's weak to both Clique and Flusterstorm. Next to that it takes a lot of time to set up and in the meantime Miracles already deploys Countertop. End of turn Decay is pretty bad for your in-hand spell density and makes it harder to generate enough storm.
I do not agree it offers plenty of creative space along with EtW and you can potentionaly ToA them 2,3 times also is you have multiples, with target lifetotal around 16 it should not be that hard
- Needle didn't make that much of a difference because you still have counterspells and Clique to worry about. Next to that, Snapcaster Mage can also float un-discardable counter magic.
this is very preferable scenario, obv. you do not play into it unless you can accomplish something, once you get rid of their hand every other attempt is easier, with Needle out their deck becomes very bad
- The most games I won against Miracles are because of Past in Flames (!) and Ad Nauseam. These felt like regular games where you take some of his protection and just go for it. Past in Flames flashback is real though and I won a couple of games just because of that.
strategy of overloading is very good but after all which actual strategy is doable always depends on what's in your and their hand

I'm pretty upset by this matchup and I might be pretty negative about it. Offcourse there are a lot of noobish Miracles pilots out there, but there has to be a (near) perfect sideboard strategy against this deck.

I think perfect is none, that's why it's difficult MU, playing well is the best prequisite

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:cool:Attempting My first big event. Trying to "Keep calm and count to ten" grinding station's style (slosh's style). If some relevant impression comes up I'll share it, although probably a " 0-2 please sell your kernel and find another game" are expecting me. Cya

Hi all, i've been busy lately. I am planning on taking a straight UB list to a small tourney and here's the sideboard i've come up with hoping they are enough to cover everything

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
1 Trapical

What decks do we really need to watch out for right now?

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Originally Posted by death

What decks do we really need to watch out for right now?

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faster combo decks.
managing your life total against the aggressive decks. (boarding out Ad Nauseum when it's a liability.)

Thanks for the heads up. Is it time to splash white and bring out Containment Priests yet?
Reanimator and Sneak Attack are tough matchups because of additional discard and red blasts we need to deal with aside from their countermagic.

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Originally Posted by death

Thanks for the heads up. Is it time to splash white and bring out Containment Priests yet?
Reanimator and Sneak Attack are tough matchups because of additional discard and red blasts we need to deal with aside from their countermagic.

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Xantid Swarm is the way to beat those matchups. There are a few lists that play a 1-of Karakas in the board as well for these matchups (and thalia). I have been back and forth cutting the 4th decay for a karakas. I could also see cutting the 3rd Swarm instead for a Karakas.

But once Griselbrand hits the table our situation gets worse regardless if Karakas is in play once they are able to virtually Ad Nauseam off of him.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

So what? They have no clock left, a significant amount of lifepoints less and still just a maximum hand-size of 7. it's not hopeless

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Depends. Petal, swing with Emrakul (Sneak Attack) or Exhume a non-legendary or fatty with shroud is still possible after drawing 7/14 cards. Karakas though is still decent.

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Originally Posted by death

But once Griselbrand hits the table our situation gets worse regardless if Karakas is in play once they are able to virtually Ad Nauseam off of him.

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So what? They have no clock left, a significant amount of lifepoints less and still just a maximum hand-size of 7. it's not hopeless

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Originally Posted by death

But once Griselbrand hits the table our situation gets worse regardless if Karakas is in play once they are able to virtually Ad Nauseam off of him.

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Back when I did have Karakas in my board. I played a match vs. show and tell where I drew it both times and each time he drew 14 cards at some point. I won both because a) I just natural tendrils him when he had low life. and b) He didn't find sneak attack and I just fought through his 5+ counterspells. They can only kill you with sneak attack once you have Karakas in play and even then it is still difficult since they need both grisel + emrakul.

Vs. reanimator it is even better for you since they don't have sneak attack. They have to win through a non-legendary creature (which clocks you but gives you like 3 turns to win and they will have few resources w/o a griselbrand.

I think I am convincing myself to take out the 4th decay and add back in the Karakas (I guess I could also take out a sb top)