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I don't have too many issues with delirium. Being a CMC 5 drop usually means that you won't gsz for it until mid to late game and by that time you usually have enabled delirium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Nope the Dino will replace the Hydra that I'm currently assessing as the 61th card.
Just a bunch of random ideas:
Bob is really good vs combo though I still hate it when delver Bolts him.
Jerry Mee posted a list called nic fit mill at hipsters of the coast using Archive Trap. I don't know if it's any good (I suspect it isn't) but that Archive Trap is Spicy.
I found a few decks (not necessarily NicFit) using Eternal Witness to chain Summoning Traps. That looks fun, and I wonder if there could be something there, especially for Sneak Attack lists. It probably takes too many slots but Summoning Trap can be chained with Eternal Witness, Greenwarden of Murassa, Woodland Bellower (if you have a Witness in the deck), Rune scarred demon, and a host of other cards that Sneak Attack Decks like.
I've been looking back on some Veteran Explorer Storm lists, particularly Doomsday. The first List I ever posted on this forum contained just a sprinkling of some cards from that deck- Summoner's Pact, Lion's Eye Diamond, Culling the Weak, and Past in Flames. Also I had some number of Entomb. It was mostly just a regular NicFit list that would sometimes drop a turn two Primeval Titan or go nuts with Past in Flames. I really liked that list and it performed well for me though it was vulnerable to grave hate. The loss of SDT seems really bad for Veteran Explorer Storm. But I'm still interested and experimenting with the deck. I'm also interested in Protean Hulk in NicFit.
Any thoughts?
This is how this deck has felt to me for a while. Rhino junk has less of this issue I think, but it doesn't go quite as big, which is so much of the fun of playing NicFit. Wish we could get a functional reprint of Explorer to clean up some variance!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Speaking of variance: Brael, your list has less issues with variance am I right? If I look will I find an updated list? How do you do against Delver? I love Bob as a card but I've said it before and I'll say it again:Man I love being a turtleLightning Bolt feels bad. Especially vs delver I feel like I'm just playing right into their plan. Am I just not playing well? Is it just that some Delver sequences are unbeatable? Namely something like Delver, Daze, stifle, wasteland. My lists without Bob do better in this match-up.
Hello, I am new in Nic Fit :)
Today went first time on the tournament with Nic Fit deck. Im trying junk version.
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
15 Instants and Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
3 Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
23 Lands
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
15 Sideboard
1 Dread of Night
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ruinous Path
1 Vindicate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Lost Legacy
1 Glissa, the Traitor
There were 18 ppl, so 5 rounds + top8.
draw vs Burn
won vs UR Delver
lost vs white eldrazi
lost vs death blade
won vs UR control
Anyone here playing junk? I would be thankful for any kind of advice. Is there anything I should change? I am really unsure about sideboarding :frown: It is just pile o cards I grabbed 15 minutes before leaving house :laugh:
I am almost every round siding out Meren.... but I think that I am in love with Dromoka :tongue:
Much less variance. My lists have been in flux since the SDT ban, I haven't found something to settle on yet since I've been playing very little Legacy (I won't get another chance until September really).Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadWills
I deal with consistency through a variety of ways, less colors of mana, lower curve, and more land. All combine for a pretty big effect.
I've got two competing lists right now, a Rhino list and a straight BG list.
The rhino list is back some number of pages, you can probably find it in my post history easily enough. The BG list has changed a bit, if I were going to register a 75 today this is what I would play (it's similar to what I played in my games the other week that I wrote about):
Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Spells 19
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Sideboard 15
1 Maze of Ith
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Treetop Village
4 Lost Legacy
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Treetop Village
I've never had a problem with Delver, it doesn't stomp them like Rhinos do but Delver loses to CA just like Miracles does. Really, what it comes down to is you need to not lose to mana denial. If you can avoid that from happening, you'll almost certainly win.
Bobs role varies by game, you need to identify the right time to use him. Sometimes you want him to be the last thing you play, after you've exhausted the opponents removal so that the cards can run away with the game. Other times you want to play him early and bait a removal spell so that something bigger like a Tracker can grow out of control. The correct line varies by matchup. For example, against Death and Taxes I want Bob late but against Delver I would rather have him early.
@joXergus: Kinda busy atm. I'll take a look at your list and give you some tips in the morning.
I know this sounds janky, but have been thinking about shells to toss in that Hostage Taker spoiler. Altar of the Brood sounds cool, and will probably take hold in Modern as it keeps the deck UB. Essence Warden seems just as good and infinite life seems just as good.
This deck already runs an assload of tutors, and 4 GSZ for the Warden. I am excicted. Maybe the thing can break Cream of the Crop as well. Resolve CotC, then keep cycling until you the +B part of the combo. NicFit can play all these janky cards and still just cast a Grave Titan to close out the game. It also has an entire creature base of CiP effects, so I think BUG PirafeFit might be possible. Cool thing about a leak is you can casually test the thing now among friends. Just don't cry if they change it before it's release.
Also, to keep the post on more realistic discussions, anyone ever considered Skulltap? 1B, sac a creature, draw two. Seems good. Is Night's Whisper that much better? Saw Arian saying he really liked having 8 sac outlets, and missed them when he went down to 6. Might be a way to squeeze another in.
edit: sorry for posting this... it's just too cool. Even a Coffin+Hostage Taker looks like it hurts a lot on paper. Probably needs a 2nd Essence Warden, and 2nd Leovold. Also poop, just noticed Safe Haven doesn't produce mana. I will leave it there, but that probably gets replaced by like a Cavern of Souls, for uncounterable Veteran Explorer, Eternal Witness, Tireless Tracker, and of course Hostage Taker. I can see shaving something else for another Cavern as you have 10 targets, 1/6 cards is a target.
edit2: it's also obvious Sylvan Safekeeper needs a home here, to protect the combo. Fits pretty damn perfectly. Thank you GSZ, you godly card you. Also, was testing, and the Coffin is meh. Jace would be just as good, -1 to bounce a Hostage Taker to initiate the combo, or just actually winning the game on it's own. Soul of the Harvest also feels like it just needs to be Essence Warden #2.
18
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Hostage Taker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Slyvan Safekeeper
1 Essence Warden
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Grave Titan
22
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Cream of the Crop
3 Pernicous Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
21
3 Bayou
1 USea
1 Tropical Island
1 Safe Haven
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
Perilous Research and Altar's Reap are both strictly better. They're not really all that good though, you don't want to sacrifice your board unless it's a Veteran Explorer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
@Kanti/Brael: I'd argue that Diabolic Intent is better. Instead of 2 random cards it draws the exact card you need every single time. That being said, Intent doesn't see play for various reasons and given the fact you'll always have life but will not always have creatures you want to sacrifice, it's easiest to go ahead and use cards that pressure your life total rather than the CA you're trying to build.
Also, Kanti, how would your deck improve upon current builds and what does it do to improve the bad MUs we currently have?
I've gone over your list. A few things stand out.Quote:
Originally Posted by joXerus
- There's very little in the way of CA/library manipulation. This means that in the end you'll end up losing quite a few games to variance and'll have a harder time pulling out ahead of your opponent.
- However awesome Dromoka is, you don't need it. There are plenty of 4- and 5-mana cards that let you walk away with the game just as well. Lower CMC, same result = better. More boring, I know, but better. That's the biggest trap when playing with this deck - wanting to play the cool stuff over something more efficient. I know I fell for it more than once.
- Your SB is all over the place, and not necessarily geared towards beating the decks you're weak against. You need to worry about the decks that are faster than you, not the grindy stuff.
I hope this helps you a little. Good luck!
Thank you for your reply, Echelon!Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
1) I know that I have only 1 Painful Truths and 1 Sylvan Library (+1 Eternal Witness and 1 Tireless Tracker). How can I improve my CA? Should I have more Painful Truths / Sylvan Libraries or creatures like Eternal Witness / Tireless Tracker?
2) I feel pretty bad when I got it on the opening hand, but later in the game its cool, I do not need to GSZ for 7. Versus those URs its basically GG. But I'm curious, so if you can tell me about some creatures with "lower CMC, same result = better", I'll be glad :tongue:
3) I know my SB is really bad. I'm pretty new to legacy, so I'm not used to legacy decks and how to counter them. I do not even know what is supposed to be a good matchup and bad matchup. I'm not sure what SB cards should I use, not even what board out. I'm used to playing modern, so I was boarding through my feeling what I saw in the first game.
It would be super nice to have some kind of SB Guide, I have one for my modern Abzan.... but here its almost impossible, while there is so many versions of nic fit :frown:
1) Multiples work. I believe sdematt runs 2 Painful Truths and a Nights Whisper for starters. You could also try proxying Mirri's Guile, see how that works for you as pseudo-Top. As far as CA/engine cards go, I (at the moment) run the following suite:Quote:
Originally Posted by joXerus
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Note that I do also run an Eternal Witness but don't necessarily count it in my CA/library manipulation suite - it's only single shot. Also, don't take this suite as gospel - just mix and match and see what works for you/you feel comfortable with.
2) Siege Rhino beats 90% of the field @4 mana. So you could go -1 Thragtusk, -1 Dromoka, +2 Siege Rhino. Helps shave down your mana curve a bit. And they're great in multiples. Verdurous Gearhulk is an 8/8 trample @5 mana, so you could replace Dromoka with that. It comes down a turn earlier and needs 1 swing less (or 2, if your opponent has already lost exactly 4 life) than Dromoka.
3) There's some good stuff in the primer on page 1. For reference, this is the SB I'm currently running. This should probably change a bit to better suit your meta, obviously.
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
As you might guess it's geared mostly towards dealing w/ fast combo decks, as those are the decks' biggest weakness. Any deck where you're able to easily drag out the game past turn 5 or so, you should have at least a 50/50-ish MU against (now Miracles is gone). You don't really want to commit SB room to that. Cards like Lost Legacy might still come in for grindy MUs though - it's just pretty damn good to strip whatever troubles you. Vs. anyDelver for instance, I might use it to strip away part of their offensive suite, giving me an easier time dealing with their leftover creatures.
I agree, Intent beats any of that. I'm still hesitant to sacrifice my board in just about any situation though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You could circumvent that by going for a build with (a big bunch of) Young Wolf, Strangleroot Geist and whatnot. You'd end up with a deck very resistant to spotremoval and (probably) very good w/ equipment. Just supplement w/ SFM & Batterskull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
It'd make Grafted Wargear and Rancor pretty cool too, by the way. Just 1 of each turns each creature into an absolute nightmare to deal with.
You sacrifice individual card power, though. What you really want is creatures that provide reasonable value if they die, but are still good if your opponent doesn't care about a bear and you don't have Intent in hand. That means Strix, Stoneforge, Explorer (naturally). Unfortunately there aren't that many other actually good options beyond those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I know. Oh, how I sometimes long for the days when I was just a filthy casual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Also, by the time you're done filling all the slots in your deck you'll probably find out you don't have any room left for Diabolic Intent. Or, you know, you should just Natural Order for Progenitus instead.
Speaking of Natural Order - I think the place you want to be with that card is actually Worldspine Wurm. Mainly, because it's a savage beating with Sneak Attack. NO into Worldspine is pretty close to a game ender in the same way as Sneak, and you can play around Swords with Therapy, Tower or Sylvan Safekeeper or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
There might be some. Lots of Mulldrifteresque cards is what you're looking for. Such a build loses the ability to run Baneslayers though (too much removal for single big cards) so the good stuff to tutor becomes a lot more limited. I think it devolves back to Thrun and Sigarda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I'm leaning in another direction myself though. Lately I've been trying to figure out what I can do in a RWB deck in Modern that utilizes Dark Petition. With our mana ramp, it might be possible to do something similar here. I for one would rather pay 5 to Dark Petition for any card, and play it right away if it's a 3 drop or less than pay 2 and lose a creature to tutor something, and then still have to pay the mana cost.
I've hit a snag though in figuring out what's powerful enough to warrant paying 5 mana over. It's not like we're Storm and win on the spot with it, and that's probably a good enough reason to not spend too much time thinking about it.
Geist is just barely good enough to work. I've been playing it off and on. I really like it against JTMS, or other random Walkers, and it provides another decent opening with Therapy, letting you goQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
T1: Bayou, Therapy
T2: Geist, Flashback, swing 3.
It's not the greatest opening in the world since it doesn't accelerate, but it's not horrible, and it's something else you can play off of Explorer acceleration.
It's high on my list of cards to replace though, and only makes it in my BG lists.
I think the better way to circumvent losing your board is to go back to the super durdle decks like BUG Pod. Problem is, those decks don't win fast enough, and lately involve too much shuffling for my tastes. I definitely do not want to be playing a deck that's slower than Miracles, and that's something Nic Fit runs into a lot.
I've been doing a bit of testing with Dark Petition. The primary Petition targets I was testing were Toxic Deluge (naturally), Liliana of the Veil (maindeck combo hate), Contamination (randomly hoses a lot of decks). Ophiomancer also works with Contamination well, and is a better card when you aren't comboing than Mardu Strike Leader.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I would suggest more interaction, and lowering the curve. It takes a lot of time to get to where I am (and it's a path few are brave or perhaps foolish enough to travel), but most people will settle for Rhinos, and I think we've been lowering our curves in general a lot lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by joXerus
I would also suggest more mana acceleration at 1. I'm a big fan of the 2x DRS. Not only can you pair them up for a real clock, but they have utility, and they get you to 3 faster and getting to 3+ mana on T2 is your #1 gameplan. When it comes to interaction, I would add more. With my CA I use 23 cards total that interact, but with lower CA I think you need to be more around the 30 card range, you're currently at 23. Your interaction right now:
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas
The thing about Legacy, and especially non blue Legacy is that your cards NEED to interact with the opponent. That means lots of discard, and lots of removal. The card that I would credit with a breakthrough here is Crop Rotation because it solved the problem of sneaking in enough interaction while maintaining threat density. It's acceleration, recursion, card advantage, and interaction in one. It's important for every one of your cards to have some method of trading with an opponents card.
Cards I would suggest:
Maze of Ith
Phyrexian Tower
Volrath's Stronghold
Bojuka Bog
Maelstrom Pulse
Tidehollow Sculler
Master of the Wild Hunt
Crop Rotation
Pick a few of those. I would highly, highly, highly recommend 2 Crop Rotation, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Stronghold, 1 Tower in place of
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Scavenging Ooze
That will increase your interaction to 27 cards (removing the Ooze costs you one). I would then try to work in one more creature based removal that you can GSZ for. Master of the Wild Hunt is good here, I'll leave it to you to decide on that cut.
After that I would look at lowering your remaining curve. Rhino is the best creature available to our deck. Unless it's for Sigarda, I see no reason to ever pay more mana for something. As such, I would remove the Thragtusk for another Rhino. Finally to work in that second DRS I would look at Steves slot (especially since my suggestions drop you to 6 basics). Also, look into Night's Whisper over Painful Truths. 2 vs 3 mana matters a lot, especially when you have 4 drops to cast.
Now for the sideboard. With Nic Fit I divide my sideboard into three categories: Mana, silver bullets, and tutor targets. I'm going to start with my sideboard to explain things (you'll want a different sideboard though):
This is my tutor package. Crop Rotation is functionally another GY hate spell, and an accelerator (getting Tower). It also deals with Reanimator and Sneak and Show. Maze of Ith is a combat trick and a backup Karakas (and it's not just a second Karakas because of Legendary, this way both can be on the field at once). It's worse against Emrakul but better against the RB White creature they play, better against Griselbrand, and can even give your own guys "vigilance". Treetop Village is good against PW's, especially Jace, it's colored mana, and it's cheap to activate so you can use it and do something else in a turn.
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
Next is my mana package. In many matchups Veteran Explorer is better for your opponent than for you (Sneak and Show, Miracles, Burn, Storm, most combo, etc). In those matches you want to take out your Veteran Explorers. The problem is, this deck is mana hungry and you need acceleration (another reason my build is the way it is... it runs on less mana). So those Vets need to come out for other acceleration. When that happens I bring in my full set of Deathrite Shaman, and my Steve for 3 Vets. Against Islands, Carpet of Flowers also comes in (and sometimes not Steve). You can also use this package against mana denial decks like D&T, Blood Moon decks, etc... to simply bring in more mana and beat their denial plan. I use this trick a lot against Delver. DRS and Carpet come in, with or without Vets.
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
The above 8 slots are locked in my opinion. I think every Nic Fit should be playing all 8 (or 9 if you only play 1 DRS MB, I strongly advocate having all 4 in the 75). Things get a little trickier after that but I focus on beating combo. Lost Legacy is amazing, evidenced by the fact I play 4 of them, and really combos well with the 3 mana on T2 gameplan. Golgari Charm is to diversify my removal, it helps against spot removal (Bolt/Push), it's another way to deal with Moat (less relevant these days), it helps with Elves (not as good as it used to be though), and is even a way to take out our own Vets. Jitte is again there for Elves but it's also just a really impressive card on a creature filled board.
4 Lost Legacy
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
@Brael: And here I was thinking I'll start slowly.
I'll pitch in some more tomorrow.