[Deck] Armageddon Stax

@_erbs_

Yeah, I guess I have been pretty unlucky.. 2 of my 4 game losses were to an effective turn 1 kill.


As far as the rest of it goes, I wasn't attempting to compare Horizon Canopy to Cloister, really. I just think that Cloister is too big of a risk with all the artifact hate they're going to side in, not to mention the fact that I'd be pressed for space to put it in. Since Horizon Canopy takes up a land slot (and provides green mana, at that), I think it's the better choice. Also, it does simply cycle, even if you don't have the crucible.

It seems that you're using Tangle Wire the way that I use Oblivion Ring, too. However, when I play it, I have the luxury of setting up first while a Tarmogyf beats at me, and then play the Oblivion Ring after I have lock pieces down.

I do like the Sphere of Resistance suggestion though, I'll see if I can pick them up.


@f|i[p]

I agree with most of what you said, just a couple small points...

You can't sacrifice Mishra's to Magus. Magus states that the creatures "have" the ability, and since it triggers at the beginning of upkeep, you do not have priority before the trigger stacks, hence, you can't make Mishra's a creature.

Knight of the Reliquary will almost always be too slow to fetch a Tabernacle, it can't happen until turn 3/4 (unless you have double mox diamond).

It seems good opponents try to mulligan into the Chain of Vapor, just so they can get past the Prison or Chalice at 0.

Runed Halo doesn't keep away Zombies.

I know that this should be an easily winnable matchup, I might have just been really unlucky recently. I, too, considered running black for Extirpates, but I am EXTREMLY reluctant to run black in addition to green, simply because it would probably wreck the manabase. As far as taking out green entirely goes, I love Knight and Choke too much to do that.

I might try running EE or Powder keg.. most likely the Keg, since Trinisphere messes with the EE. Maybe Wraths...

Thanks for the brainstorm. I've also considered trying City of Solitude in side... and ideas on that?

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Originally Posted by Isei

@f|i[p]

You can't sacrifice Mishra's to Magus. Magus states that the creatures "have" the ability, and since it triggers at the beginning of upkeep, you do not have priority before the trigger stacks, hence, you can't make Mishra's a creature.

Runed Halo doesn't keep away Zombies.

I might try running EE or Powder keg.. most likely the Keg, since Trinisphere messes with the EE. Maybe Wraths...

Thanks for the brainstorm. I've also considered trying City of Solitude in side... and ideas on that?

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Well I actually didn't know about not being able to respond to the magus trigger. But come to think of it your right. I stand corrected. I never really sacrificed mishra to magus ever anyway. I was just thinking of ways to get rid of bridge.In the end, you'll eventually end up having to sacrifice magus if need be.

Runed halo can't name tokens, but it can name the archangel, or the troll who can be gigantic. Its just a brainstorm since it has more uses, like naming goyfs, progenitus and other cards.

Yeah, knight is slow since he has a different purpose and was not really meant to hold off swarm type decks, but I was just pointing out that, he can help too if given the chance.

Yeah.. trinisphere can actually mess with EE but I like the fact that its actually faster in some other scenarios(not ichorid) than keg. I also love the fact that you can ramp EE's cc to avoid Counter balance.

Sorry I'm just being too general about sideboard options.

For ichorid, kegs would be a lot better, As you can drop and sacrifice. No bad synergy with trinisphere.

I'm just throwing out idea's since I never really had a bad experience with ichorid. I guess you'd have to mulligan aggressively against them as well.

Actually, I guess its also because Magus of the tabernacle and G. Prisons tend to come out a lot when I play stax.

@a hint of black just for the sb.
I actually didn't suggest that you replace the green splash. It was actually in addition to green. But I will have to explore on this myself. As the only real major problems I encountered was actually P.deed, landstill and at times single FAT creatures smashing face early. Green actually helps against these decks already.

@city of solitude
That is actually an interesting sideboard option. I remember a time when we used to have Defense grids on the side. City of solitude is actually tons better than grid.. ofcourse grid may come a little earlier, but city of solitude can actually stop counter spells, Sensei, vials and probably more(during your turn ofcourse).

Has anyone encountered problems facing natural order? I have never played against it yet since I actually dropped stax for a long time because of Rock and landstill in my metagame.

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

Has anyone encountered problems facing natural order? I have never played against it yet since I actually dropped stax for a long time because of Rock and landstill in my metagame.

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I've played against my old deck progenthresh sadly i don't have it anymore huhu... and i have to say that its a game of luck or if you want to be sure an agressive mulligan to trinisphere or ctov is a must if your on the play. Or hope that your opponent doesn't drop a first turn noble heirarch if your on the draw.

With the 1st turn heirarch trinisphere isn't that effective and you have to lock them really fast via smokestack or drop 2-3 ghostly prison to hold progenitus atleast.

An early trygon predator hurts like hell its almost GG if you don't draw a oring to stop it.

I found that sphere of resistance helps aswell to slow them down since such decks run 10-12 lands only the rest are fetchlands which doesn't produce mana.

I was having a hard time getting green mana aswell still using Isei's mana config -1 flagstone -1 nomad stadium +1 canopy. I think adding 2 more savannah's is need. Without using any green SB cards the green mana mainboard is okay but when you side in green cards they sit very long in your hand before you could cast them at times the game is over before you could cast it.

The cards i bored was: 3 choke 2 sphere of resitance. -1 crusible -2 armageddon -1 trinisphere -1 oring


So far in my testing the deck is doing okay Isei's list you just have to adjust your playing style to it. Running orings and tanglewire was totally a different story i was triving on tempo before as compared to now you just sit and wait for your opponents threats to land and respond to it, unlike before the decks plays agressively but the win con is slow as compared with the knights hahaha. A fair trade i guess.

As for the horizon canopy the draw engine mechanism is really very very very slow. You need atleast 3-4 working mana meaning to give you space to pay upkeep no ouch in tapping, a colored mana open aswell to work with before you could make the canopy draw engine online. Making the canopy 2 pcs made the green mana much easier i guess but as for draw engine its still sub optimal. It feels like its a cycle land.

I don't know if it feel different for you Ise's since you running 26 lands as compared to my 25.

Looking at my current mana config it feels like its to fragile to wastelands and other threats.

Current Land Config
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 mishra's factory
4 wasteland = contemplating if i'll make it 3 to add more colored mana.
2 horizon canopy = i want to drop 1 and add 1 savannah or forest
2 flagstone of trokair
1 savannah
1 kor haven = better than i expected
5 plains

Any suggestions to make it more stable as possible and will don't encounter green mana problems aswell.

Just wondering would Krosan Tsuker or Solemn Simulacrum or Eternal Dragon help in getting the colored mana then act as a win con if needed?

As you've said there is no more space for bottled cloister stax shell is really really tight. Without the tanglewires orings are a must.

I haven't faced decks which packs landy (wasteland, rishadans and bloodmoon). I feel the mana config is much more fragile as compared to before. Before in the old list when my turbo lands gets destroyed i can really feel the heavy casting cost of the deck.

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Just a question where do you actually side in krosan grips ? i never felt the need to side it in since i have 3 orings main already.

@ erbs

We actually suggested the green splash when KotR wasn't printed yet. It was meant just to help pack the sb of krosan grips and chokes. The main purpose of K. grips was for P. Deed and Phyrexian dreadnaught. Pernicious deed has always been my main concern. 4color landstill and rock used to have these as a 4 of. Dreadnaught was quite popular back then.

@the mana base

It has always been clunky , thats why when I play against stax using a different deck, I know hitting the 2 mana lands really hurt the deck. Splashing a color always puts the mana base at risk. But it also helps by giving us good sideboard option as well.

@sideboard

Another good side sideboard card would be compost. If the metagame has lots of discard and black decks. I'm not sure if this would help against ichorids speed. I'm sure however that it would draw you into tons of cards against ichorid..

Sorry if I missed it earlier in this thread, but has there been much discussion on the list that Geoffrey Siron placed first with in a recent Legacy event? It seems pretty standard/solid, but I'd be interested to hear what others feel about the design he went with.

For reference:

Mainboard:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Nomad Stadium
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
1 Tundra
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard:

4 Suppression Field
4 Defense Grid
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Exalted Angel
1 Tormod's Crypt

It was only a 32 person tournament, and the meta (or top 8, at least) seemed to be very aggro-heavy. That being said, I'm not particularly impressed with the list. Only 3 Armageddons in main, 1 Academy Ruins with 1 blue source and 1 EE... it just seems bad, overall.

My land base for stax currently is

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones
5 Plains
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven
1 Gargoyle Castle
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah

Ive been testing Gargoyle Castle, and its really not all bad. Sure is cost :5: mana to activate, but The Gargoyle Blocks Predator all day. Its a guaranteed flyer late game every turn (/ Crucible). Ive blocked Tombstalker with is several times until I drew the lock. It taps for :1: colorless mana (which is a plus!). I played the deck in the Mean Deck open, and 3 other tournaments, and I have been 4-2, 5-1-2, 5-1-2, and 4-2, and I would have to say The Castle has flat out won me at least 15 of the 36 games, not counting the added damage each game where it benefited me. I'm a believer! And I want you to be a believer too!

And I do run 61 cards, and that is my preference, which it always has been, thats why the 27 lands (plus TTAPV doesnt produce mana).

Gargoyle Castle seems nice but its like your 3rd mishra's factory. I was discussing with a friend of mine who plays stax aswell maybe cutting the factories might improve the mana base abit since its primary role is just a blocker all day via crusible of the worlds. (this is with the knight of the reliquary build).

Due to the awesomeness of Factory's +1/+1 pump, I wouldn't run less than 4. However, running Gargoyle Castle as a 1-of seems... good. Like, I don't know why, but I feel as though Stax should run it. Extiprate/Runed Halo/Pithing Needle/etc. on Mishra's Factory isn't the end of the world, but it sure is annoying and will slow down our kill.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Due to the awesomeness of Factory's +1/+1 pump, I wouldn't run less than 4. However, running Gargoyle Castle as a 1-of seems... good. Like, I don't know why, but I feel as though Stax should run it. Extiprate/Runed Halo/Pithing Needle/etc. on Mishra's Factory isn't the end of the world, but it sure is annoying and will slow down our kill.

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Its awesome as a attacker or blocker ? If you think about it loosing the factories is not so big. They are your 2nd win condition or 3rd if you're running the knight of the reliquary build.

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

Its awesome as a attacker or blocker ? If you think about it loosing the factories is not so big. They are your 2nd win condition or 3rd if you're running the knight of the reliquary build.

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Well, with KotR, Unless you have CotV for 1, he dies to StP, PtE, and Unless you have CotV for 2, he dies to Edit's, Smother, and every other removal spell in the format (primarily). Magus is good, because it pins the opponents lands, as do the Ghostly Prisons, which Is why I'm running 4 MotT, instead of 3. It may cost 4, but it is very important that you have one of these against a lot of matchups, and I didnt see it as often when I ran 3. Mishra's Factory is great, and I don't think I would drop it, but The Gargoyle Castle, is very good as a 1 of, which means you dont see it every game, but Like I said in the previous post, It blocks Trygon Predator all day! its like a Serendib Efreet, but you do not take 1 every turn, and with CoW, its a guaranteed 3/4 Flier every turn.

Hi everybody!

I had tested the KoTR with green splash, and this build are very solid and apresented many good results.

IMO, the builds with use 3 Mishra, try cut one and put a Nantuko Monastery or a Gargoyle Castle... is a HUGE help against fliers the last one, and a great beater the first one...

Now, a question: what is better (and why): City of Solitute or Choke?

My sideboard is:

4 Defensive Perimeter
3 City of Solitute
3 Exalted Angel
3 Supression Field
2 Sphere of Law

What you think?

Thx,

Lammina!

Apologies for one-linery, but what's Defensive Perimeter?

If I had to guess, I'd say he's talking about Defense Grid.

Also, Choke or City of Traitors? Seems like a false dilemma. That's like saying Tropical Island or Tarmogoyf.

I'm guessing you meant to say City of Solitude.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

If I had to guess, I'd say he's talking about Defense Grid.

Also, Choke or City of Traitors? Seems like a false dilemma. That's like saying Tropical Island or Tarmogoyf.

I'm guessing you meant to say City of Solitude.

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Sorry.

That´s right, Defense Perimeter = Defense Grid.

And the right is "City of Solitude"....


Thx,

Lammina

I haven't tested CoS, but with the results of Choke have practically given me the blue matchup. The selling point of the deck is to lock the land, because they need it for so many different things, Choke just stops the mana. If all they have islands, Ghostly prison Shuts the creatures off, Magus just nukes their creatures, and suppression field kills the abilities. Choke is like an Armageddon against the blue player. Has anyone tested City of Solitude? How is it?

BTW,
0. Mox Diamond
1. Play Ghostly Prison
2. Play Knight of the Reliquary
3. Armageddon.
4. Get the Plains from Flagstones
5. Tap Knight.
6. Search for Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

This makes me believe the Land belongs in the deck, because it definately is not hurting You, and as a plus, Knight searches it out for you.

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is really a nice card but the deck is much tight already. Normally the land count for the W or Wg Stax is around 24-26 or 27 even and with such a high land count utilities are lost like trinisphere, cotv or oblivion ring, etc.

The thing which i don't like about tabernacle is that it has no mana, thats why i think kor haven is much better. And as for the 3rd mishra's becoming a Nantuko Monastery or Gargoyle Castle i would still pick mishara over them.
For the reasons:
1. Mishra is much easier to activate as compared to both
2. Monastery requires green which at times is hard to find.
3. 5 mana is still 5 mana, yes gargoyle castle produce you an army of gargoyles and could block trigon predators which is one of the bane of this deck so is pridemages. But also take into account that you are playing 4 geddon and with no crusible in play the gargoyle castle costs alot if you need a blocker early on. And 5 mana plus 1 land for a 3/4 flyer seems not a fair trade maybe if its activation cost is 3cc and you don't need to sac the land i would have considered it.
4. The only thing i could find it useful just maybe is in the SB for decks that packs tons of removal from 1cc to 3cc making cotv for 1 insufficient to protect KoTR and the mishra's can't get through aswell.

As for City of Solitude vs Choke i would pick choke over it 90% of the time. City of Solitude is almost like Defense Grid which is easier to cast over it.

a new possible toy for stax and could maybe replace smokestack...

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/?page_id=1523

World Queller

I actually think he does not fit at this point.The problem is that you will usually end up naming land or nothing. Players don't usually run artifacts and enchantments like we do. What they usually have are creatures and lands and spells. You can't really name creatures because, you'll end up sacrificing itself or another important creature (which we only have a few of). He may be a good way to block something small and still be able to constantly name land. I think however that creature is the usual thing we would want to name, and there's really nothing much to sacrifice on our part. @ 5 cc , he is also quite slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

a new possible toy for stax and could maybe replace smokestack...

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/?page_id=1523

World Queller

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That card is much better in MWC. Particularly with the new land, Emeria, the Sky Ruin, to give the deck tremendous reach.