[Deck] Reanimator

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Originally Posted by stu55

Before people freak out, I am pretty sure ppl need to test A)Lim-Dul's Vault, B) Personal Tutor, and C) Sensei's Divining Top in the spot that was Mystical Tutor.

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I would definately add Intuition to that list. It's really an underestimated card. Has been fantastic in testing.

As for those suggestions...

Personal Tutor can't tutor up Entomb. And Entomb is the only way you have to tutor the ideal creature for the matchup into your yard, so it's pretty important to be able to tutor up as you run only four ways to do it in the deck.

Top isn't a tutor, this deck needs a tutor.

And as for Lim Dul's Vault, don't see a deck like Reanimator running it. Mystical Tutor was horrible card disadvantage. The fact that it was 1cc made up for it by gaining tempo.

But the second you make it two color and 2cc, card disadvantage tutors lose their viability imo.

The most popular tutored card with M. Tutor was Entomb.

So compare Lim Dul's Vault to Intuition.

Vault into Entomb, cost three mana, and nets you -1 card disadvantage to get one Iona into the yard.

Intuition costs three mana, doesn't create any card disadvantage, and either dumps both an Iona and a Inkwell Leviathan into the yard and puts another Iona in your hand, or dumps 2 Iona's into your yard and puts an Inkwell Leviathan into your yard that you can pitch to FoW.

But more importantly, Intuition can grab you a FoW or Daze or Stifle at instant speed and put it directly into your hand, in response to a Yixlid Jailer for example.

If speed is what you're worried about, just make room for Dark Ritual in the deck. You will still be able to combo off turn one if you have both combo pieces, or on turn two if you have intution. So it would be just as fast or faster than Mystical Tutor was.

I do expect the deck to see less play. But I also expect a lot of the hate to die down.

Practically my entire meta is either maindecking or sideboarding Faierie Macabre right now. I expect that to go away. I expect Fairie Macabre to disappear for the most part and get replaced with Crypts and Relics which Null Rod stops. And thus I actually expect this deck would perform better in my meta, not worse.

As for being able to tutor up antihate. Yes, you can't tutor up one of silver bullets like you could with Mystical Tutor. But on the other hand, you can now tutor up anti-hate permanents, which is actually a pretty big deal. Permanents actually stick around for the duration of the whole game.

You can tutor up cards like Null Rod which shuts down the bulk of the hate this deck can expect to face now that everyone and their grandmother won't be maindecking Fairie Macabre.

I personally think the slightly slower more controllish path is the way to go.

But if you want to go pure aggro, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to start from the build in the OP and work off of that. The build was clearly based on a lot of testing and was pretty aggressive. It's actually far more consistent in letting you combo off by turn two than the preban builds of the deck. It just had to become more focused on black and sacrifice FoW in order to make this happen.

Obviously the build in the OP is outdated and the deck should play Ionas, and Thoughtseizes over Oona's Prowlers and what not, but just in terms of strategy, it could work...

Here's my quick and dirty take on that deck...

Spells:
4x Daze
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder/Breakthrough

Creatures
4x Iona
2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon

Lands:
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Island

There, 12 Reanimates, 12 Creatures (Counting Entomb), 12 Discard Outlets (Counting Entomb & Thoughtseize), 8 Disruption Spells AND 11 Cantrips . That should make the deck pretty damn consistent if nothing else.

If the deck plays Breakthrough though, it should probably make room for Dark Ritual as well.

Just to set the record straight, as far as Reanimator is concerned:

Buried Alive is garbage
Intuition is garbage
Lim-Dul's Vault is garbage
Personal Tutor is garbage
Sensei's Divining Top is garbage

Mystical Tutor is IRREPLACEABLE with the current available card pool. Without it, you are done. You lose your speed, versatility and reliability. While the ANT people will probably survive the loss of this card, Reanimator as we know it will not. The deck might evolve in another direction but it will remain a mere fringe player that may win here or there when the stars align.

I don't mean to sound negative, but if you have spent any decent amount of time playing this deck I think the severity of this loss is evident. I would really love to hear what the pros like Gerry Thompson and LSV have to say about this. I can't imagine any of them advocating the use of this deck in any future Legacy tournament.

With all this being said, I would love to be wrong, I would love for this archetype to continue to flourish. I just don't see it happening and it had just reached DtB status :(

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Originally Posted by Akuma

Just to set the record straight, as far as Reanimator is concerned:

Buried Alive is garbage
Intuition is garbage
Lim-Dul's Vault is garbage
Personal Tutor is garbage
Sensei's Divining Top is garbage

Mystical Tutor is IRREPLACEABLE with the current available card pool. Without it, you are done. You lose your speed, versatility and reliability. While the ANT people will probably survive the loss of this card, Reanimator as we know it will not. The deck might evolve in another direction but it will remain a mere fringe player that may win here or there when the stars align.

I don't mean to sound negative, but if you have spent any decent amount of time playing this deck I think the severity of this loss is evident. I would really love to hear what the pros like Gerry Thompson and LSV have to say about this. I can't imagine any of them advocating the use of this deck in any future Legacy tournament.

With all this being said, I would love to be wrong, I would love for this archetype to continue to flourish. I just don't see it happening and it had just reached DtB status :(

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Thanks guy, you have offered a negative argument and contributed nothing.

As the world learned with the fight over Intelligent Design, a negative argument is not an argument all, you're just starting that everyone else is wrong but are in no way willing to offer a suggestion.

I think there is likely a way to make the deck a solid tier 2 deck - the creatures are so powerful and hate is diminishing.

And ANT cannot really survive this it really needs Mystical to work at all.

Mystical Tutor is not a combo piece, it's a tutor for a combo piece.

Other tutors exist.

Intuition is both a combo piece and a tutor, and even a control piece (it grabs daze/fow at instant speed), plus it doesn't cause card disadvantage like Mystical Tutor did.

If speed is what you're worried about, just make room for Dark Ritual in the deck. You will still be able to combo off turn one if you have both combo pieces, or on turn two if you have intution. So it would be just as fast or faster than Mystical Tutor was.

I do expect the deck to see less play. But I also expect a lot of the hate to die down.

Practically my entire meta is either maindecking or sideboarding Faierie Macabre right now. I expect that to go away. I expect Fairie Macabre to disappear for the most part and get replaced with Crypts and Relics which Null Rod stops. And thus I actually expect this deck would perform better in my meta, not worse.

As for being able to tutor up antihate. Yes, you can't tutor up one of silver bullets like you could with Mystical Tutor. But on the other hand, you can now tutor up anti-hate permanents, which is actually a pretty big deal. Permanents actually stick around for the duration of the whole game.

You can tutor up cards like Null Rod which shuts down the bulk of the hate this deck can expect to face now that everyone and their grandmother won't be maindecking Fairie Macabre.

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I think there is likely a way to make the deck a solid tier 2 deck - the creatures are so powerful and hate is diminishing.

And ANT cannot really survive this it really needs Mystical to work at all.

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That was the point, this deck is no longer tier 1. I'm not being NEGATIVE, I'm just stating what I believe to be the truth. My contribution is this: if you want to win, look into another archetype.

I'm aware of the possibility that ANT cannot survive either, but I don't play that deck so I'm not going to provide an opinion on something I have not tested.

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Mystical Tutor is not a combo piece, it's a tutor for a combo piece.

Other tutors exist.

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Mystical Tutor is the deck's engine. Now, no engine. Intuition cost 3 mana, that is an enormous difference.

Intuition is an even more powerful deck engine/tutor/combo piece. It can get multiple creatures into the yard and one more in your hand just in case they manage to sweep away your yard. And it has the advantage that it doesn't cause card disadvantage.

Yes it costs 3 mana, but that can be nullified by playing Dark Ritual in the deck.

Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread off and on. I know a lot of people are mad about the ban. I don't think it's the end of the deck though.

I started playing this list. I based the manabase off the SCG Top 8 Reanimator list. And the deck is still pretty powerful.

Creatures
3 Tombstalker
2 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force Of Will
3 Dark Ritual
3 Intuition

Sorceries
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Island
2 Swamp

Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

I added Tombstalker to the deck a while ago, and it's awesome. Many games were won on the back of the 5/5 flyer. It works really well with Dark Ritual, Careful Study and now Intuition. I wouldn't cut that card for anything.


I was hoping to get your advice on the sideboard. Pithing Needle/Null Rod both seem good, which is better? Should I splash green into the maindeck, or just splash it from the board if needed? I kind of wanted to add Animate Deads to the list but I don't know what I could cut.

Should have a singleton Dryad Arbor in the board. Looks like your manabase already supports it, with 8 green fetches and only 2 on-color.

Yeah the fetchlands don't matter that much, but I fixed that.

I definately do want to splash green from the board though. I want to blow up Countertops, Leylines and Humilities. Either Pithing Needle or Null Rod should take care of most of the other hate this deck could see. Which do you think is better, Needle or Null Rod?

How about EE?

Have you even considered Dryad Arbor in the board?

Yes, against edict and innocent bloods.

The thing is, the first creature I reanimate is almost always Iona (naming black against any deck that would play edicts).

So I don't see that being all that useful. If edict and innocent blood start giving me problems, I'll play it.

...then she dies to Swords.

Also it's good in the mirror because you can attack with it while countering all your opponent's reanimation spells.

Guys, stop whining. The deck is still quite viable, even without Mystical Tutor. Sure it will go down in popularity and lose a bit of its power but people will simply proceed to play it because they actually own the deck and people are lazy in general. So someone who really likes this deck will come up with a substitute for Mystical Tutor. This will in my oppinion probably be some changes towards a more controlish and resilient version running Intuition and Tombstalkers. This doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

I did some testing with Lim Dul's Vault and it did not hurt the decks perfromance that badly. There was a 65% chance to combo turn 2 with mystical and 49% with LDV. I will post all the results tmrw when i have more time.

By my approximation, 60% of the time, the card you tutored up with Mystical Tutor was Entomb.

You played 8 reanimate effects and only 4 entomb effects, so the odds of having a Reanimate effect in hand were always pretty high.

Isn't it significantly stronger to pay 3 mana to tutor up two creatures into the yard, and one more to your hand just in case your yard gets cleared (or to serve as careful study or fow fodder),

stronger than it is to play 2 mana and3 life on average, to tutor an entomb to the top of your library, suffer -1 card disadvantage, wait a turn, then spend a 3rd mana to entomb one creature into your yard.

Both approaches cost you 3 mana to do a similar thing, but Intution does that thing better (put 2 creatures in your yard and another in your hand), and does it without making you lose your next turn's draw or your life.

Of course both cards can tutor up anything, but even when you are not tutoring up an entomb, I feel like paying one extra mana is worth not losing 3 life on average and also not losing your draw next turn/having to wait a turn to get the card you want/not being able to grab a FoW or Daze immediately.

But maybe I'm wrong. The one scenario where I could see Vault being comparable to Intuiton is if you tutor up a Careful Study to the top of your library and a creature or two right underneath it. This would make up for the card disdvantage Vault causes, but not for the loss of life.

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Originally Posted by Jon Stewart

By my approximation, 60% of the time, the card you tutored up with Mystical Tutor was Entomb.

You played 8 reanimate effects and only 4 entomb effects, so the odds of having a Reanimate effect in hand were always pretty high.

Isn't it significantly stronger to pay 3 mana to tutor up two creatures into the yard, and one more to your hand just in case your yard gets cleared (or to serve as careful study or fow fodder),

stronger than it is to play 2 mana and3 life on average, to tutor an entomb to the top of your library, suffer -1 card disadvantage, wait a turn, then spend a 3rd mana to entomb one creature into your yard.

Both approaches cost you 3 mana to do a similar thing, but Intution does that thing better (put 2 creatures in your yard and another in your hand), and does it without making you lose your next turn's draw or your life.

Of course both cards can tutor up anything, but even when you are not tutoring up an entomb, I feel like paying one extra mana is worth not losing 3 life on average and also not losing your draw next turn/having to wait a turn to get the card you want/not being able to grab a FoW or Daze immediately.

But maybe I'm wrong. The one scenario where I could see Vault being comparable to Intuiton is if you tutor up a Careful Study to the top of your library and a creature or two right underneath it. This would make up for the card disdvantage Vault causes, but not for the loss of life.

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You make an excellent argument for Intuition. I agree that it is probably the best substitute for Mystical Tutor in Reanimator. It can fetch reanimator spells or even get a force of will direcly in your hand in a pinch.

One serious problem with Intitution is the mana cost. Reanimator is light on land count, and sometimes you won't have three mana available. It will also run into Daze more often. Another problem is the slowness of the card. Unless you are playing mana acceleration, you won't cast Intution until turn three. That means you won't be reanimating a big creature until turn four. With Mystical Tutor, you could drop Underground Sea and tutor on turn one. Then on turn two, you could drop a second Underground Sea and cast Entomb and Reanimate to get a big creature out two turns earlier than you can with Intution. I wonder if this slowness will doom the deck.

In another question, do you think players will be taking Faerie Macabre out of their sideboards now that Reanimator has been hampered by this banning? I would think this would be the case, as I'm revising my sideboards for my other decks.

I think many decks will indeed take out Faeirie Macabre's assuming a sufficent number of Reanimator players stop playing the deck, which could take a month or so. Macabre is ideal against Reanimator, but against most other graveyard based decks, there are far better alternatives.

I do think a lot of black decks that were playing Macabre will switch over to Leyline, and we need to be prepared to answer that card. Fortunately, it's an easier card to answer especially if you splash green. But Echoing Truth works as well.

And the only other grave hate I anticipate seeing frequently is Crypt and Relic, both of which can be stopped cold by either Pithing Needle or Null Rod.

Yes the slowness is the biggest problem with Intution, and the deck will either have to run more lands, or up the Dark Ritual count, or maybe even both, to support it.

To be fair though, Vault, Top and all the other alternatives being discussed are just as slow. They cost 2 mana and make you wait a turn, and then costing another mana to cast the Entomb, rather than costing 3 mana straight up to do what Entomb does that same turn.

However, this doesn't doom the deck in my opinion. You can still Dark Ritual, Entomb + Exhume turn one, or Careful Study + Reanimate turn two.

And you can likewise, Dark Ritual + Intuition + Reanimate on turn two.

So the deck is usually just as fast or faster in most scenarios. It's slower in maybe 20% of the scenarios that you are comboing off in. The only times you are slower is when you are both dependent on Intuition to combo off and don't have a Dark Ritual in your hand to help out.

Dark Ritual seems like a "must" card with the new Reanimator. The question is what to cut if you are bringing in dark rits or increasing the land count. With Mystical Tutor gone, Reanimator decks should take out their singleton Show and Tell and bounce spell, which will leave two open slots. I'm not sure where the other slots will come from. It might be best just to play three Intution instead of four.

I agree with you, Dark Ritual seems crucial.

The build here

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post464623

doesn't seem like a bad start.

I wonder if that list could get away with cutting Thoughtseize completely and maybe cutting a single Careful Study for another land, another Dark Ritual and another Intuition.

I am not sure if it makes sense to play 4 Careful Study if the deck is only playing 4 creatures worth reanimating.