That I might look at the list if the card names were correct instead of unknown, useless knicknames.Quote:
Originally Posted by honestabe
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That I might look at the list if the card names were correct instead of unknown, useless knicknames.Quote:
Originally Posted by honestabe
How do you guys feel about Green Sun's Zenith?
Goyf #5+? QP and Teeg Tutor?
or Daze food in a 20 land deck?
I'd honestly rather run 61 cards than cut something for the Zenith. I think I'd rather have something silver-bulletish and off the wall like a lone O-ring, Naya Charm, or Ranger of Eos.
It's probably better for Elves, as a 5th Glimpse or Pact if they play combo. Worldy Tutor would be better at 1G for Zoo, but it's slow and inconsistent, the opposite of what Zoo wants to be.
Just picked up this deck. Here's my list. Any advice?
22 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Treetop Village
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
23 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape
15 Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
15 sideboard
3 Choke
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
I would advise against swords, since it's counter productive to your strategy. The opponent gaining any sort of life at all is detrimental. Swords is a control removal, not an aggro removal. Four path in exchange +2 chain. Lightning Helix is a fine alternative in an aggro heavy meta. 4 Knight is a bit much, but I can attribute that to personal preference (I run 3 and the typical amount is 2). Wasteland and treetop village should be taken out, you can't expect to have a knight out to tutor for them, and if you do, you always want to be attacking, not wasting time land cycling. Furthermore, Waste and Path don't play nice together, and cip tapped lands are to be avoided at all costs. 20-21 land is ideal.
I would increase your Grim Lavamancer count to at least 3 (4 is common, I'd almost say universal), as it is wonderful against merfolk, a very common deck. You have 9 non-grim dudes for 1, which is great. Never drop below 8 imo.
Opinion Warning*
I don't like Steppe Lynx in 'classic' zoo (that is, zoo that runs knight and doesn't run Price/Fireblast). It's worthless when you are on the draw vs lackey and similar, has little defense, and can sputter out after an initial swing for 4. It CAN get big with Knight tap effects, but why not swing with the knight too? It's often a bad lategame draw, and promotes running too many fetches. I ran it for a year and it was a total mixed bag, either being great or useless, and in Classic Zoo I feel its greatest strength should be consistency. I will say that Steppe Lynx is a complete house in more Sligh styles of Zoo, adding to those deck's speed and surprising reach (lynx for 4 on t2, cat, ape, lynx for 9 on t3 with price+fireblast for the win is alarmingly strong, albeit goldfishie and random).
Opinion end*
Your sideboard is odd, but I can't comment too much without knowing your meta. Hope this helped.
You're trying a big zoo shell replacing hierarchs for lynxs and baneslayer for ape... if you want to play big zoo keep hierarchs and slayer, if fast zoo is what you want cut swords for paths, replace the 2 path you already have for 2 chain, cut treetop and wastelands for price/fireblast/helix depending on your meta, and probably cut a knight or 2 for 2 grims...Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
What if to some people see giving that extra land via PtE is a bigger threat than then gaining an attack phase's worth of life? PtE isn't strictly better than Swords, it's a fine option
Swords gets better with Wasteland inclusion, a-la-Big Zoo, IMHO. You can cover the lifegain easily enough, but providing land with Path when you want to keep a superior board position? Yuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I think Swords is a great option if you are debating Sulfuric Vortex in the sideboard. I'm starting to see Sulfuric Vortex as a serious option in zoo, not for the lifegain hosing neccessarily, but for these reasons:
1) Almost nobody brings in enchantment hate against zoo (think about this implication for Oblivion Ring too)
2) It makes Swords an unconditional exile, while at the same time providing a faster clock
3) At 3 mana it has decent odds against CounterTop
4) It doesn't require unblocked attacks to get in for damage
Could someone help me tweak my mana base?
It works alright, but it doesn't feel "right", and I lose more games to color screw than I would like.
Feel free to make suggestions on the rest of the deck, as I'm fairly new to Zoo.
Mana
2x Taiga
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Savannah
3x Windswept Heath
3x Arid esa
2x Plateau
1x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Forest
2x Karakas
Creature
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Watchwolf (test)
2x Knight of the Reliquary
Removal
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Helix
1x Fireblast
Couple of things:
Sylvan Library in some number (2 is generally accepted, but more isn't bad...just a personal choice).
Horizon Canopy has great synergy with the aforementioned Sylva Library, and with the high fetchland count both of them let you see fresh cards every turn.
Steppe Lynx can be insane if you get it early, especially with 9 fetchlands. It can be a terrible topdeck late game, which is why some lists only use 3 of them. If you run out of land (which is pretty rare considering Sylvan Library...) you can run the little 0/1 dork into a bigger blocker and use it to feed Grim Lavamancer. Easily a better option than Watchwolf. There are a TON of better options than Watchwolf. If you're looking for 2 slots to fill in, look to something outside of CounterTop range. The best option is obviously the other 2 Knights, but you could also use Elspeth, Knight-Errant, or just get Fireblast #2 in there along with another Grim Lavamancer.
Good luck!
The Sylvan Library was my mistake, i run two, but my eyes glossed over them looking through the deck. I agree, in matches where it lands so far, it has been incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I would very much like to run Horizon Canopy, but I am unsure of the mana base:
9 Fetch (3 each) + 6 dual (2 each) +3 basic (1 each) is 18 lands.
I really want to run at least one Karakas, perhaps two.
Does zoo want 21 lands? 22?
I suppose I could run 2x Horizon Canopy and 1x Karakas.
Cut a watchwolf for an extra Knight to tutor for Karakas as necessary; it's a touch slower, but I guess running two Karakas is still just a crap shoot against Sneaky Show (which shows up a fair bit in the meta).
And then perhaps cut the last two kird apes (which I am generally not happy with) and the other watchwolf for 3 steppe lynx?
Again though, I have no idea on the 9 fetch + 6 dual + 3 basic part of the mana base, but it feels a touch off.
You need more 1-drops, and Watchwolf is terrible.
11 1-drops is the absolute minimum I'd ever play in non-Big Zoo. Unless I'm playing the mirror/Aggro matchup, I will mulligan a hand without a 1-drop 95% of the time.
Windswept Heath is the most important fetchland, so you want 4 of them. If you end up running Steppe Lynx (which I fully support), you want 11 fetchlands.
I feel 21 lands is the best number for standard Zoo. Without 4-drops, 20 lands is probably okay.
Horizon Canopy is good enough to warrent a 1x inclusion IMHO. If you use 21 lands, that sounds good to me. You have 9 fetch + 6 duel + 3 basic + 3 utility (Horizon, Karakas) = 21
Most zoo lists use 4x Knight...it is slower to get moving, but it's the nuts for being able to tutor up these lands: Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Mountain/Mountain flavored duel for Fireblast.
Nacatl x4, Grim Lavamancer x3-4, Steppe Lynx x3 = 10-11 one-drop creatures, which should be enough. Goyf and Pridemage are your 2-drops, and Knight should top off your curve x3-4. The reason Knight is so good is that it generally gets past Counterbalance and gets huge from your fetchlands. There is some minor dissynergy with Grim Lavamancer, but you can PICK the cards you exile with Grim and avoid lands until you absolutely need to. Remember that Knight feeds itself too, which is important when facing a bigger threat (bigger Goyf or Knight/Terravore) and you need to beef him up.
This is just my opinion on Watchwolf vs. Kird Ape: Kird Ape is marginally smaller, but also costs a full mana less to play. Both are in CounterTop range, so the mana cost is largely irrelivant for that particular matchup. If you need more beef than the 10-11 1-drops you already have, Kird Ape is better than Watchwolf. I would challenge that Loam Lion is even better than Kird Ape if your metagame has a tendancy for Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast.
Good luck!
Here's the build I'm packing...
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mindbreak Trap
Any suggestions? I worry that 11 1-drops aren't enough, but I find mainboard Teeg to be relatively useful. Should I consider cutting Teeg for Apes or Lions, or moving him to the SB? I like having 1 Jitte in the main because I have run into many situations in which Jitte winds up being literally my only out and it is able to prove its worth (mowing down a horde of EtW tokens, wiping an Affinity deck's board, etc)
As far as SB, I added Kataki and Shusher because I have recently encountered a lot of CB and Affiinity, the top 4 slots there are flexible.
Keep running Watchwolf. It makes you feel like you're wearing a bandolier and wielding badass guns when you attack. Plus, losing to outdated cards is always fun.
If you're worried about EtW tokens, I think your best bet is Pyroclasm in the sideboard. Ancient Grudge has always served me well in the affinity matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
Why are you playing maindeck Teeg? His effect is good, but easily dealt with by the majority of the format. I feel 2x Fireblast would go much further for you.
I'm also a huge proponent of a full set of Lightning Helix, too. Tendrils of Agony w/ a 10 storm count? Response, Helix at you, be-yotch.
hah, that's funny whether you're being sarcastic or notQuote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Not to burst your bubble but you would be dead if you cracked any fetches that game. Even if you didn't, your opponent would be at 39 life and need only topdeck burning wish to kill you with grapeshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I got 12th in Vestal this weekend with this:
// Lands
1 [MR] Mountain (1)
1 [MM] Plains (3)
1 [CST] Forest (2)
3 [R] Plateau
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Savannah
4 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
// Creatures
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
1 [BD] Kird Ape
// Spells
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [DD2] Fireblast
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [8E] Choke
SB: 3 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
I beat UGB Thresh, Junk, Sligh, Goblins, and GerryT Countertop, and lost to Merfolk (!) and a weird UGBR Countertop deck. There isn't much I'd change about the deck, perhaps find room for a 3rd Knight in the board. I don't understand playing less than 23 lands when we have access to Horizon Canopy.
I used to run a foil playset myself back in the day when I picked the deck up. I love the card because of it's nostalgia. And seeing you opponents face when you win with Watchwolf is enjoyable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Bloodbraid Elf really isn't talked about a lot. I used to not run him because I ran Steppe Lynx and a Lynx off a Bloodbraid is pretty horrible. However, recently I tried him out again as a 2-of and I'm rarely sorry to draw him.
Right now I'm running this:
Lands 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
Creatures 20
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Grim Lavamancer
Spells 19
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard 15
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Lightning Helix
1 Bojuka Bog
Bloodbraid's way too slow for a build with only 21 land...you'll have a hard time hitting 4 mana without a hierarch or more lands.
Even then, Bloodbraid's really only going to be helpful vs Counterbalance and other aggro decks...against a lot of the format, it's going to just slow you down.
that's pretty generalised, why wouldn't it work given certain circumstances?
I've been having a hard time beating W/x tempo decks.
Are there any sweet sb cards for that MU?
What do you consider a "W/x" tempo deck? Without anything more than that it's difficult to talk about sideboard cards.
I think that if you're going to play a 4cc card you might as well play Elspeth instead of bloodbraid elf. While Elspeth doesn't net you a card, she does get you 3 damage a turn (the most that bloodbraid elf can get), but more importantly, she diversifies your threat base. Bloodbraid elf doesn't really do this in my opinion, and does little to help you win when your other creatures would not have gotten you there in the first place. Sure, there are situations in general where elf can be really good. However, I would rather play things that net insane card advantage (like library), are ridiculous threats in their own right (knight, terravore even), or diversify the threat base (Elspeth, maybe Koth).Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
On a related note Dzra, I notice that you're only playing 2 lavamancers. I think they're too useful to only run 2 of, as they can provide two damage a turn while letting all of your creatures trade up if needbe. Furthermore, tribal is pretty popular right now (well, aggro in general), and lavamancer is one of your best tool against these decks.
I used to use more, but I felt like too many was counterproductive to Goyfs and Knights. Once the graveyards start filling up later in the game, they can definitely be great. An early Lavamancer was always fighting with Goyfs and Knights though. Anyways, Tribal MUs are usually not a problem. 8 Bolts, Helix, and Paths usually clean them up pretty well. Goblins can sometimes be problematic if they hit really well off Ringleader. I'll give Elspeth a shot I suppose, I've liked BBE so far but Elspeth has always been great in whatever deck I've put her in.
Against Combo? Sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
Against the rest of the format? Not really.
I don't think BBE is where you want to be, though; it doesn't really have any value in any matchup. There are at least two four-drops I'd run instead, which actually do things you need in a variety of matchups.
Elspeth and..?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrzyMoose
Ranger of Eos.
Hi! I have a couple of questions. I'm currently trying out a zoo list but not that sold in playing it because of questions such as given below that occasionally pops into my mind.
1.) Which variant of zoo ( BIG or Traditional) is better in a meta full of goblins, zoo, merfolks, mono black, and combo decks (TEPS, bellcher)?
2.) Why is zoo not that strong or is not finishing in the top tables after the banning of survival? At least I have not seen it do good in SCG and in big tourneys.
3.) How can zoo handle phyrexian crusader?
thanks in advance for your helpful responses.
1.) The Traditional one because its faster.
2.) Because CB beats Zoo`s ass.
3.) Block it with Goyf or Nacatl.
I've never had that much of an issue with CounterBalance. It's not a great MU, but far from terrible. I spent awhile testing and almost always ended up 50/50. CB isn't the issue. It's combo that always keeps Zoo in check. There are other outlier decks that aren't terribly good either, but CB isn't the deck keeping Zoo down.Quote:
Originally Posted by stumPen
Need only top deck burning wish and enough mana to cast it and grape shot. and you can probably kill them in like 5 or 6 turns with out any distruption on their part.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
I agree with that, Storm Combo is the main reason Zoo isn't as succesfull lately as it used to be. Counterbalance Decks are hard, but by landing an early threat (T1 tacatl) before they have time to drop Counterbalance, and by keeping up the pressure, you have a good chance to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
On the other hand, the combo match-up is bad because your clock is usually to slow, and you have to hope you find some of your sideboard material, so they have time to build a good hand to go off or find an answer for your sideboard hate.
And the idea of casting Lightning Helix in reaction to a Tendrils with 9 storm copies is ridiculous. Sure, it's great is it actually happens, but that would mean the storm player hasn't cast Duress or Orim's Chant to prevent situations exactly like this one. Also, it would mean that you kept 2 mana open with which you could also have cast a Tarmogoyf or a Wild Nacatl. Therefore, if your opponent just Brainstorms or drops a Sensei's Divining Top (which he can easily do because you haven't cast a creature so you're not close towards attacking for lethal) you basically wasted a complete turn. And finally, storm players usually have a storm count of well over ten.
Zoo's chances of beating both CounterTop and ANT improve if you run Fireblast. The 6cc gets around Counterbalance, while you might surprise an ANT player when you are tapped out after an Ad Nauseam with four extra damage for lethal.
By w/x tempo, I meant Deadguy Ale, death and taxes and Green and taxes
Are you worried about how the match ups look on paper or are you really getting crushed repeatedly by people wiht those decks?
The thing is, both w/x tempo decks and zoo have a lot of removal, so you're going to have to out play them. Bringing in cards for the match up isn't as important as knowing what their deck is going to do and how to take advantage of it. If you can consistently deploy threats and force them to handle each one, eventually you'll get into topdeck mode where Zoo is a stud. Certain cards like Library and KotR should be deployed later on when all their removal has been expended on Goyfs, Nacatls and Grim Lavamancers. Those are the cards that'll turn the game in your favor.
I haven't been playing zoo a whole ton, but is the presence of firespouts enough to give zoo problems in the counterbalance matchups? I remember when I played zoo counterbalance decks were rarely a problem for me.
CB diehards run Firespouts in the main due to their common creature match ups. Sticking an early beater like a Nacatl or goyf, or even pridemage, paves the way. Over extending into a firespout is pretty deadly, as one generally wants to land as many threats before CB/Top is on the table. Here, Grim Lavamancer shines as a shock-on-a-stick, and a first turn Nacatl goes a long way as well. Sometimes, they're just going to have good hands and go turn 1 Top turn 2 CB, then Daze/counter whatever you play afterwards.
Maindecked firespouts represent a counter-strategy to those employed against them. A hoard of creatures is bad news for CB, so having a cheap and effective sweeper, and something in the 3cc slot for CB to boot, is indeed a good thing.
It's not the end of the world, it's something to keep in mind.
Firespout is really what tips the balance in the CB match up. Indeed, it gives the CB player a reliable and cheap answer to countering Grip with CB, and will sweep the board early keeping them safe from a mid-game burnout. With no way to draw cards efficiently and effectively, Zoo loses so much card advantage from losing three plus creatures/ threats to a single card. If you play conservative and don't pump out creatures, then Zoo is not playing its intended and required "A" game and aggressive style of play. Zoo plays optimal when it is very aggressive and assertive, especially early. Playing passive and holding creatures back in fear of firespout also plays right into their game. So it is like you are damned if you do and your damned if you don't. In my view, the CB match is quite favorable with no main deck firespout, and three main deck firespout with four post board makes the CB match an uphill battle.