[Deck] Dredge

Tested list LED List:

//Discard outlet:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp

//Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Recurring Creatures:
3 Ichorid
2 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

//Support:
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sun Titan

//Draw spells:
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
1 Breakthrough

//Lands:
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Gemstone Mine

SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Memory’s Journey

Split between Ichorid and Bloodghast - Bloodghast has nice interaction with Sun Titan - you can recycle with any land then put it back - simply works good also with Undiscovered Paradise/Dakmor Salvage. Good way to suprise opponent and diversity of recurring creature helps vs Surgical Extraction.

11 Dredgers, 8 Drawing Spell, 4 LEDs.

I have good question for all those guys cutting Dread Return - why are you cutting your faster win con, you really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares with some slow beaters ?

Dread Return is very powerful card - Its best sacrifice outlet and also gives an best creature from your gy which isn't too small.

I'm actually playing on 1 DR MD target - Sun Titan - it is just so good and uniwersal. It can bring back more guys if needed, mill 3 or 2 as you wish, or put back Stinkweed as a chumpbloker and this effect is continues..

About SB:
3 Firestorm - obv vs all with Ooze, hierarchs and other creatures..
4 Diffrent DR targets (probably should change one of them):
- Elesh - mirror, GW Maverick, Tribals - all creature decks
- Iona - vs combo its mostly only answer
- Ancestor's Chosen - mostly aggressive decks like Burn, Boros, U/r - probably to changing since Iona can stop all those crap.. probably for Woodfall Primus/Angel of Dis depends on meta.
- Flame-kin Zealot - when you have to go off really fast.

anti-hate cards:
2 Chain of Vapor - Universal answer
2 Nature's Claim - same as about but diffrent aproach
2 Ancient Grunge - crypts, cages, equipments, relics, spellbombs etc..
2 Memory's Journey - most vs exctractions - but also as hate vs reanimator - won me some games vs painter ;P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I've been playing LEDless Dredge pre-DKA with moderate success, and have been preparing a build post-DKA. After a few iterations, this is the configuration that I've become somewhat comfortable with:

LEDless Dredge
Main Deck

//Dredgers
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Effects
4x Bridge from Below
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy

//Enablers (Discard/Draw)
4x Putrid Imp
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting

//Lands
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard

4x Faerie Macabre
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Nature's Claim
2x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Firestorm

Notes:

• The most notable deviation from the norm is the exclusion of Dread Return from the Main Deck (as some of you have also started doing). The last configuration I used pre-DKA had 1x Dread Return in the MD and one in the SB (a configuration that I've had moderate success with). I've been leaning more and more towards removing Dread Return from the Main Deck for a variety of reasons, and it seemed to me that the availability of Faithless Looting was the last reason I was looking for.
• This configuration runs 16 lands (12 of them being Gold Lands) to maximize the chances of drawing one in the opening hand. Running 4x Tarnished Citadel might come up as an issue from time to time, but I'd prefer taking damage rather than go through awkward timing issues with Undiscovered Paradise and Cephalid Coliseum. Maybe a 2-2 split would be best.
• I'm still unsure of whether I should be using Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void in the anti-GY slots. For now, Faerie Macabre gets the nod because of its flexibility.
• I used to have Woodfall Primus in the SB as a utility card, but the instances where I needed him have been dwindling. I'll probably have to reconsider this when game time comes.
• I would like to have at least 3x Firestorm in the SB, but I'm unsure of what to cut for it. Cutting the Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim slots to 4 from 6 is an option.

Any additional input would be highly appreciated.

Kind Regards,
jares

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After much consideration, I'm still unsure of what I would want my SB to look like for a local tourney coming up in our area. This is how it looks like for now:

[4x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Chain of Vapor
[3x] Firestorm
[2x] Dread Return
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot

Notes:

• Both Faerie Macabre and Chain of Vapor are there because of the added flexibility that they provide, but I'm still considering Leyline of the Void and Nature's Claim in those slots.
• I've been able to talk myself into going up to 3x Firestorm, and I hope that it pays off.

Any additional help with these considerations would be appreciated.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatal

I have good question for all those guys cutting Dread Return - why are you cutting your faster win con, you really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares with some slow beaters ?

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I don't think this point makes sense. Actually, you make yourself more vulnurable if you run dedicated DR targets, imo.
Also, a gazillion zombies plus 3 Ichorids turn 2 is not my definition of "slow beaters".
Still I agree that Sun Titan is the best option as a target, exspecially in a Bloodghast build.
Actually, I'm tinkering on one, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatal

I have good question for all those guys cutting Dread Return - why are you cutting your faster win con, you really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares with some slow beaters?

Dread Return is very powerful card - Its best sacrifice outlet and also gives an best creature from your gy which isn't too small.

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To try and answer your inquiry, no, I don't really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares, nor do I expect to. If you're implying that not running Dread Return in the main would cause you to lose game 1 because of Swords to Plowshares, then I suggest that you review your understanding of how the Dredge Archetype is designed - if not, then maybe a more meaningful line of questioning might be more helpful in clarifying what you're trying to understand with your inquiry.

I definitely agree that Dread Return is a very powerful card, which is why I currently wouldn't run a 75-card deck list without it.

Kind Regards,
jares

Are you guys who are MDing Nether Shadow actually getting any use out of the card in match ups not running Islands?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Are you guys who are MDing Nether Shadow actually getting any use out of the card in match ups not running Islands?

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In short: no, none at all.

It's been a few years since I have Sleeved up this deck and I have a few questions regarding SB options.

I see some people using Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge is this more of a defensive piece against Surgical Extraction or is it used offensively? To me at least Memory's Journey seems like the superior option as it hits more cards for the same cost as Purify or Purge and works better as a two way option (offense/defense)

Last question why Nature's Claim over Ray of Revelation? Is it just to hit hate game 2 while on the draw? Ray at least allows you to not only draw into it but also flash it back if they draw into more hate and most boards I see also have Ancient Grudge which shores up the other half of Claim.

All answers are appreciated, the noob thanks you in advance!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wereodile

It's been a few years since I have Sleeved up this deck and I have a few questions regarding SB options.

I see some people using Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge is this more of a defensive piece against Surgical Extraction or is it used offensively? To me at least Memory's Journey seems like the superior option as it hits more cards for the same cost as Purify or Purge and works better as a two way option (offense/defense)

Last question why Nature's Claim over Ray of Revelation? Is it just to hit hate game 2 while on the draw? Ray at least allows you to not only draw into it but also flash it back if they draw into more hate and most boards I see also have Ancient Grudge which shores up the other half of Claim.

All answers are appreciated, the noob thanks you in advance!

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I haven't been able to use coffin purge and the such to much success.

Nature's Claim is used over ray because it costs one mana and hits either enchantments or artifacts. Good for those people that like their enlighted tutor SB packages.

Also, you can't flashback ray if your opponent sticks a leyline of the void or wheel of sun and moon.

have you guys found: memory's journey, purify, coffin purge or street wraith to be the best counter measure to surgical? granted street wraith only allows you to save dredgers, so it is not as good at protecting but the fact that it has other uses (allows more dredging, feeds ichorid) is a factor to consider.


i personally wouldn't bother with chain, but that's because i feel the non enchantment, non artifact hate doesn't exist as rampantly so i think nature's claim is just better (it is dredge's swords to plowshares, more or less). sure you can use the chain to slow down a knight activation, but that only buys you about a turn, so i guess that argument is pretty valid but the rest of the time blowing up the piece (wheel or leyline) is better.

also where do you guys even want firestorm anymore? the creature matchups? merfolk? rug? all of those seem like places where you shouldn't even bother with the card and just grind them out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

also where do you guys even want firestorm anymore? the creature matchups? merfolk? rug? all of those seem like places where you shouldn't even bother with the card and just grind them out.

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For Maverick which is a real deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Que

For Maverick which is a real deck.

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THIS!

I tested more with my Manaless Land-build, and came to the conclusion that I wanted soem Drawspells, because I am not that reliable on the Sphinx-package anymore. I also wanted to play a card which fits the deck perfectly, so I chose Study & Looting over Breakthrough. It's important to dig for Antihate in g2 so this is also a +. And IMO Firestorm is still one of the best / trickiest cards in the deck, so I also don't wanted to ditch these... Which lead me to the following list:

//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ichorid

//other stuff
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Firestorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

//Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 City of Brass

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Purify the Grave
SB: 2 Wax // Wane
SB: 2 Oxidize
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus

Yeah, I know, blame me for Elesh mainboard. It's debatable, but I think she is too strong with these little Shadows, and does more often than not help in hopeless situations. I likt his list a lot. It has a lot of resiliance and still enough speed to still freak out and kill the opponent in 1 blow. The only thing I am missing are 2-3 Phantasmagorians because they are really nice with Shadows, but I can't see something to cut other then Elesh. Well... I only tested this deck in "casual" games with friends this week so I am most likely go to play that list in a tourney tomorrow and see how it plays out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

THIS!

I tested more with my Manaless Land-build, and came to the conclusion that I wanted soem Drawspells, because I am not that reliable on the Sphinx-package anymore. I also wanted to play a card which fits the deck perfectly, so I chose Study & Looting over Breakthrough. It's important to dig for Antihate in g2 so this is also a +. And IMO Firestorm is still one of the best / trickiest cards in the deck, so I also don't wanted to ditch these... Which lead me to the following list:

//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ichorid

//other stuff
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Firestorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

//Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 City of Brass

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Purify the Grave
SB: 2 Wax // Wane
SB: 2 Oxidize
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus

Yeah, I know, blame me for Elesh mainboard. It's debatable, but I think she is too strong with these little Shadows, and does more often than not help in hopeless situations. I likt his list a lot. It has a lot of resiliance and still enough speed to still freak out and kill the opponent in 1 blow. The only thing I am missing are 2-3 Phantasmagorians because they are really nice with Shadows, but I can't see something to cut other then Elesh. Well... I only tested this deck in "casual" games with friends this week so I am most likely go to play that list in a tourney tomorrow and see how it plays out there.

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You might want to consider Ingot Chewer over Oxidize in the board. It can't be Spell Pierced and it gets you tokens off Bridge. Both are functionally identical at one mana. Something to look at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

You might want to consider Ingot Chewer over Oxidize in the board. It can't be Spell Pierced and it gets you tokens off Bridge. Both are functionally identical at one mana. Something to look at.

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While this is true, I thought that I have 3 different outs against cage in that slot...

Ingot Chewer: Can Evoke and trigger Bridges, laughs at Spell Pierce, but is sorcery speed. The Golgari Thug plan is a nice trick, but I don't think that will happen very often.

Shattering Spree: Better with 2 lands, because copies needs to be countered, too. Sucks when you get wasted if you want to make set up copies and is sorcery speed also.

Oxidize: This is an Instant, and IMO this is huge. Upkeep triggering the Ichorids, response Oxidize the Cage, nice :laugh:. End of opponents turn: Oxidize. I think Instant is a huge + instead of the Sorcery-variants.


In the end, there isn't a big difference between these 3 cuz they are all functional identical [like you said] , but I think Instantspeed is more important then Evoketrigger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

In the end, there isn't a big difference between these 3 cuz they are all functional identical [like you said] , but I think Instantspeed is more important then Evoketrigger.

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I believe that, based on what Dredge wants to achieve as an Archetype, being able to trigger Bridge from Below and evade a fairly common counterspell in Spell Pierce is much more important. Also, it may not have been pointed out that, because Ingot Chewer is a creature, it helps power-up the power-toughness of the Troll whenever reanimated, and more importantly, helps with getting Nether Shadow into play. Given that you're running a full set of Nether Shadows, it surprises me that this has not been considered, and that Oxidize is still regarded more highly over Ingot Chewer simply because it's an instant (noting that the scenarios that have been mentioned where "instant-speed" would be useful aren't really as relevant as one might expect).

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

i personally wouldn't bother with chain, but that's because i feel the non enchantment, non artifact hate doesn't exist as rampantly so i think nature's claim is just better (it is dredge's swords to plowshares, more or less). sure you can use the chain to slow down a knight activation, but that only buys you about a turn, so i guess that argument is pretty valid but the rest of the time blowing up the piece (wheel or leyline) is better.

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I definitely agree that non-artifact, non-enchantment hate is uncommon in the current meta, but it's important to note that Chain of Vapor isn't really used only as anti-hate, as it's really there to be the versatile answer to everything else. Personally, my primary consideration for it whenever I construct my SB is whether or not I need additional answers to Reanimator, but that might just be me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

also where do you guys even want firestorm anymore? the creature matchups? merfolk? rug? all of those seem like places where you shouldn't even bother with the card and just grind them out.

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In my experience, Firestorm shines best exactly in the scenario that you stated - the one where you expect to "grind them out". I guess that you've got the right idea then :tongue:.

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I believe that, based on what Dredge wants to achieve as an Archetype, being able to trigger Bridge from Below and evade a fairly common counterspell in Spell Pierce is much more important. Also, it may not have been pointed out that, because Ingot Chewer is a creature, it helps power-up the power-toughness of the Troll whenever reanimated, and more importantly, helps with getting Nether Shadow into play. Given that you're running a full set of Nether Shadows, it surprises me that this has not been considered, and that Oxidize is still regarded more highly over Ingot Chewer simply because it's an instant (noting that the scenarios that have been mentioned where "instant-speed" would be useful aren't really as relevant as one might expect).

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Well... I played with Chewers today, and it actually can be nice to DR them [Affinity]... I never thought about the interaction with Shadow, but this is a huge +.

Thanks for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

Well... I played with Chewers today, and it actually can be nice to DR them [Affinity]... I never thought about the interaction with Shadow, but this is a huge +.

Thanks for that.

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Glad to have helped. I actually overlooked that it can also be a DR target in certain situations; it's also helpful that it's got a healthy body at 3/3.

Cheers,
jares

Howdy fellas, what is the general consensus about Ray of Revelation? I'm playing 2 at the moment but most times it's only wasted space. My current sideboard is:

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// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This covers most things I can think about, but is Ray of Revelation really necessary? Also, is 2x Dread Return enough to suffice the presence of a dedicated DR target?

P.S. - Just to give my feedback, I loathe Chain of Vapor but it's pretty nice to have against Maverick and Reanimator; and there is nothing as good as Ingot Chewer as Cage answer 5-6.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

Howdy fellas, what is the general consensus about Ray of Revelation? I'm playing 2 at the moment but most times it's only wasted space. My current sideboard is:

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// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This covers most things I can think about, but is Ray of Revelation really necessary? Also, is 2x Dread Return enough to suffice the presence of a dedicated DR target?

P.S. - Just to give my feedback, I loathe Chain of Vapor but it's pretty nice to have against Maverick and Reanimator; and there is nothing as good as Ingot Chewer as Cage answer 5-6.

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Ray of Revlation and Angel of Despair are effectively redundant in your SB, with Angel of Despair being superior because it targets Peacekeeper etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K1w1

@Dr.Edge kid :laugh:
I like your list. I'm actually playing the same main deck except of the nether shadows and -1 Golgari thug.
Instead i play four (4) Street wraiths. I came to the conclusion, to cut breakthrough is the thing we should do. The 8 studies should be enough. I just play the street wraith to have the chance to get them in my opening seven. The advantage with street wraith against breakthrough is, that you have a draw spell, that can be exiled for ichorids in the graveyard.
While i'm looking at your list, this could be nice with nether shadows.
If i play with shadows and +1 thug, i think i will play street wraith in the sideboard against surgical exctraction. ( Instead of playing Breakthrough in the board.

Did you already tested your list? If yes, how do you feel with lesser creatures in the grave to get back the shadows?

Then to the sideboard. How is Chain of Vapor a better choice instead of Nature's Claim?
I was already thinking about it, but i don't know what could be better.

Let's compare this two cards:

Nature's Claim:
+ Nature's claim can destroy your opponents hate directly.
- Costs green mana ( bad with coliseum )
+/- Your opponent gets 4 life ( This can be bad in some situation, but shouldn't be a big problem)

Chain of Vapor:
+ Nice against reanimator ( Bounce creatures like Elesh-Norn )
+/- Can also bounce hate, but if you don't have a therapy left, they will play it again ( except of leyline maybe )
- They can sacrifice a land to bounce you DR targets or creatures.
- blue mana ( can be cast with coliseum )

At any rate, i forgot some points! If you want, say me what, i will add it.
There are some advantages and disadvantages with this two cards.

But i think Chain of Vapor is the right answer, IMO. Because you should always have a therapy in your grave.
And the most important thing is, that you can cast it with every land you have.

Please tell me if i'm wrong with my opinion. I am open to any criticism or disagreement.

K1w1

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I chose chain for two reasons, ease of casting and applicability.
Chain is a catch all and can hit all hate. While it doesn't happen a lot, I don't wanna lose to a random yixlid jailer coming down. Chain is the most versatile piece of hate, and it has pretty much not draw back because for the most part when you are casting it you have no nonland permanents.

As far as using SW over breakthrough in the board, I disagree. The cards are doing two different things. SW is fighting surgical extraction. Breakthrough is there so you can race combo (TES, AnT, Belcher, ect.) The main deck is already designed to be better against extraction by diversifying its threats. The deck needs to speed up to beat combo, so the breakthroughs are necessary in the board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K1w1

@Dr.Edge kid :laugh:
I like your list. I'm actually playing the same main deck except of the nether shadows and -1 Golgari thug.
Instead i play four (4) Street wraiths. I came to the conclusion, to cut breakthrough is the thing we should do. The 8 studies should be enough. I just play the street wraith to have the chance to get them in my opening seven. The advantage with street wraith against breakthrough is, that you have a draw spell, that can be exiled for ichorids in the graveyard.
While i'm looking at your list, this could be nice with nether shadows.
If i play with shadows and +1 thug, i think i will play street wraith in the sideboard against surgical exctraction. ( Instead of playing Breakthrough in the board.

Did you already tested your list? If yes, how do you feel with lesser creatures in the grave to get back the shadows?

Then to the sideboard. How is Chain of Vapor a better choice instead of Nature's Claim?
I was already thinking about it, but i don't know what could be better.

Let's compare this two cards:

Nature's Claim:
+ Nature's claim can destroy your opponents hate directly.
- Costs green mana ( bad with coliseum )
+/- Your opponent gets 4 life ( This can be bad in some situation, but shouldn't be a big problem)

Chain of Vapor:
+ Nice against reanimator ( Bounce creatures like Elesh-Norn )
+/- Can also bounce hate, but if you don't have a therapy left, they will play it again ( except of leyline maybe )
- They can sacrifice a land to bounce you DR targets or creatures.
- blue mana ( can be cast with coliseum )

At any rate, i forgot some points! If you want, say me what, i will add it.
There are some advantages and disadvantages with this two cards.

But i think Chain of Vapor is the right answer, IMO. Because you should always have a therapy in your grave.
And the most important thing is, that you can cast it with every land you have.

Please tell me if i'm wrong with my opinion. I am open to any criticism or disagreement.

K1w1

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I chose chain for two reasons, ease of casting and applicability.
Chain is a catch all and can hit all hate. While it doesn't happen a lot, I don't wanna lose to a random yixlid jailer coming down. Chain is the most versatile piece of hate, and it has pretty much not draw back because for the most part when you are casting it you have no nonland permanents.

As far as using SW over breakthrough in the board, I disagree. The cards are doing two different things. SW is fighting surgical extraction. Breakthrough is there so you can race combo (TES, AnT, Belcher, ect.) The main deck is already designed to be better against extraction by diversifying its threats. The deck needs to speed up to beat combo, so the breakthroughs are necessary in the board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

In short: no, none at all.

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Not true. The idea of the deck is to turn one or two dredge into several therapies, strip them of their hand, then recur ichorids and shadows and kill them. The shadows allow you to use your therapies a bit more freely than if you didn't have them. Because you run 7 creatures that recur, your therapy is less of a sac outlet and more of a game lock. You can have 3 therapies, one narcomoeba and two bridges and feel 100% okay about using those 3 therapies because, hey, I have 2 Shadows and 3 Ichoirds coming back next turn.

Of course, shadows shine against blue, but they are far from wasted space against non-blue decks.


Anyway, won a win-a-box at GP lincoln with this 75. Round one 2-0'd burn. Round 2-0'd Pox. The shadows were a house in this game. I had to keep a slow dredge hand against him game 2 on a mull to 4. Between the Ichorids and shadows, there was no way he could out grind me. Beat U/W stoneblade in the finals 2-1. Rolled game 1, again shadows were amazing, He sticks leyline game 2 and has force back up, game three I mull to 5 and have land, study, looting, LED and chain on the play. He has turn 0 leyline. I go land bounce your leyline. He has no force backup. I draw an LED off the top, lay both down and dredge half my deck. He concedes to 4 therapies and a 16/16 grave-troll.

Now, obviously I won't be basing the decks strength on winning a win-a-box, but the deck showed a lot of possibility here and I feel like there is definitely some merit in this list. If anyone else runs a similar list let me know how it is working for you and any ideas to refine it!

Hi All,

I played in a local tourney yesterday, going against 106 other players. After some last-minute changes to the sideboard, this is the list that I used help get myself a spot in the Top 8:

LEDless Dredge
Main Deck

//Dredgers
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Effects
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Cabal Therapy

//Enablers (Discard/Draw)
[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Breakthrough
[4x] Careful Study
[4x] Faithless Looting

//Lands
[4x] Gemstone Mine
[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Tarnished Citadel
[4x] Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard

[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Firestorm
[2x] Chain of Vapor
[2x] Nature's Claim
[2x] Dread Return
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot

Listed below is summary of what went down, including some notes that I gathered during the tourney:

• I went 5-0-2 during the elimination rounds, going against the following (in order):
  
  • Death and Taxes (Draw; 1-1-1)
  • Nic Fit (Win; 2-0-0)
  • GW/R Maverick (Win; 2-1-0)
  • Reanimator (Win; 2-1-0)
  • Goblins (Win; 2-0-0)
  • GW/U Maverick (Win; 2-0-0)
  • Affinity (Draw; mutual agreement)
  • Win-Loss-Draw Total: (11-3-1)
• The following is a list of graveyard hate that I encountered:
  
  • Leyline of the Void
  • Surgical Extraction
  • Extirpate
  • Tormod's Crypt
  • Relic of Progenitus
  • Scavenging Ooze
  • Wheel of Sun and Moon
  • Nihil Spellbomb
• Sadly, I lost (0-2) to Reanimator in the quarterfinals. Game 1 was concluded by a turn 2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Game 2 was concluded by a Chain of Vapor into Force of Will. In retrospect, it might have been best to have mulled into Faerie Macabre, as it did wonders versus the Reanimator match-up I had during the elimination round where I lost Game 1 but came back to win games 2 and 3.
• The last minute change to the sideboard was deciding on a 2-2 split between Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim. Only once did I wish that Chain of Vapor was a Nature's Claim, where the Leyline of the Void that I bounced got re-casted (I eventually settled for a Draw in that round). Generally, having 2x Chain of Vapor as an additional answer to Reanimator gave me a comfy feeling against the match-up (even if the only one I got to cast all day was countered; I would have probably won that game had it resolved, given that I drew into a Faerie Macabre on the following turn).
• I never had the need to side-in Dread Return or any of my DR targets, which was the first time that I didn't run a single DR in the deck for an entire tourney. This was entirely unexpected, and has prompted me to take some more time to think about how I would want to work around playing (or not playing) with DR in my 75-card list.
• Being able to Flashback Faithless Looting (via the non-LED, garden variety means of playing Flashback) did come in handy a few times, though I can only remember that it was absolutely necessary during one instance. Being able to dig through my deck using Careful Study and Faithless Looting, though, was a critical facet of the main deck, given that searching for sideboard cards saved me a game or two.
• Having a plethora of draw spells also helped against countermagic, as I was still able to recover quickly after having 1 or 2 countered.
• Having 16 lands in the main deck also helped increase the deck's resilience against Wasteland, which may have been crucial given that I did encounter the card several times during the elimination rounds.
• I was considering Phantasmagorian over Putrid Imp a few days before the tourney, and I eventually decided to play with what I was more certain of. During the tourney, though, I did pay attention to whether or not I would be in a better situation had my PImps been Phants, and I found that having PImps during those situations did help me more.
• I noticed that there were also other Dredge players during the tournament. Unfortunately, though, I was the lone Dredge representative in the Top 8 (I believe that there were 2 Reanimators, 2 RUG Tempo, among others).
• Cabal Therapy was the MVP of the day, given that I would surely not have reached the Top 8 had I not hit the following blind therapies:
  
  • Scavenging Ooze vs Maverick, on two different rounds
  • Tormod's Crypt vs Maverick
  • Reanimate vs Reanimator
  • Goblin Ringleader vs Goblins
• I find that being able to hit Blind Therapies is one of the most powerful and important facets of playing Dredge, and is probably also one of the least practiced skills. I'm personally guilty of not studying the meta well enough to maximize Cabal Therapy, and that's something that I surely plan to work on moving forward.

Fun Play of the Day:

• Playing Faerie Macabre in response to Exhume, removing all creatures from my opponent's graveyard, then putting Faerie Macabre into play. Swing for 2 on the next turn! :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

Congrats Jares,

but i'm curious about one point. Your blind therapy agains Scavenging Ooze... sure that this is a strong card vs. dredge, but they use to play just 1 or 2 copies in Maverick.

Usually, if I'm on the play ... I say GSZ. If i'm on the draw and they have already played it for dryad ... Than I dont expect they have another.

Tell us if you had any clue from their behavior that helped in your choice... Also for the blind therapy against tormod's ... or was it game 3 and you were on the play ??

Congratz, Jares! Nice finish.

I like your list, it's something new for me to play the 16th land, but if it worked I guess it's viable. Generally I think 15 are enough, but if you have the room anyway, why not 16. My LEDless list is pretty similar to yours. I just play one less Land and I also split the set of Lootings into some Lootings and Tribes. Should play out pretty much the same though.


And see? Told you guys LEDless isn't out of the race yet. It's still perfectly playable and to be honest, it still has a lot of advantages over LED Dredge. It's just not strictly better any more.


@ Darvus: Yeah, I also usually Therapy for GSZ first, not only because they mostly have to GSZ to find Ooze anyway, but also because they can fetch KotR with it as well. If you hit you kind ofm dealt with the two most potent threats at the same time.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Straight.html

Adam Prosak wrote something about Dredge and his SCG Win...


Seems that he admits, that it was a mistake to run less than 4 Therapies / 4 Ichorids / 12 Dredgers. =P

Basic observations,

There's no reason to play the 4th Tarnished Citadel over 1xDread Return unless you like losing games to burn or Surgical Extraction, likewise I don't think you're going to get any mileage out of Cephalid Coliseum without LED or Tireless Tribe to set it up for a turn 1 or turn 2 activation. You really don't want to be blind casting Careful Study/Faithless Looting turn 1 into activating Cephalid Coliseum on turn 2, that's a fucking terrible play vs. anything you don't already face roll if that's what you're doing to go off with it consistently.

I'm super tired of explaining why Putrid Imp is trash, but if you're finding it's ability useful beyond Phantasmagorian then you should probably be SBing 4xAncient Grudge instead of stupid shit like Dread Return and FKZ - FKZ has to be the worst possible card you could ever SB in btw. And let me guess, every time you checked to see whether or not Putrid Imp would've been better than Phantasmagorian was when you were holding it in your hand with a land instead of counting the number of times it was sitting as a complete brick in your graveyard compared to Phantasmagorian?

You'll pretty much always want Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim when 4 of your lands can't actually cast the latter.

I don't think you'll ever need Firestorm as a SB card vs. anything, altho' I like MDing it. You're better off worrying about their hate (I don't really count GSZ/Ooze because it's slow and they have other stuff in the SB anyway, not to mention you can just time walk it with Chain of Vapor regardless) than getting in a cheap WoG.

@ Jares

Congrats on the finish! I like your list, since i'm a defender of LEDless dredge, although I'm with Fortune here, I wouldn't play all 4 citadel...

@ Final Fortune

The only part I agree there is Tarnished. It takes too much life to work. Putrid Imp is absolutely necessary in Konkurs-like dredge, since it usually play instead of draw in first game. Also, the simple fact that it can keep discarding already is good against gravehate g2.

Nature's Claim is preffered over Chains of Vapor in the current gravehate scenario, imho, because Chains only deals with Leyline properly when it's not in black decks, and Chains takes too much effort to work against Cage. The chances that you don't have a land to cast Claim is compensated by the chance that you have a useless chain in your hand against a cage or LL, or even a WoSnM.

Hey guys,
what are u thinking about Grafdigger's Cage? Why doesn't it see that much play yet? The reason for the fact that decks with Snapcaster Mage play Extraction over it is clear, but what about the other decks?
I'm currently running 1 Life from the Loam in my main deck along with Volrath's Stronghold and Ingot Chewer in my sideboard to combat it effectively, but i think about cutting this package entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum

Hey guys,
what are u thinking about Grafdigger's Cage? Why doesn't it see that much play yet? The reason for the fact that decks with Snapcaster Mage play Extraction over it is clear, but what about the other decks?
I'm currently running 1 Life from the Loam in my main deck along with Volrath's Stronghold and Ingot Chewer in my sideboard to combat it effectively, but i think about cutting this package entirely.

---

In short:

80% of the decks that run U want to play Snapcaster Mage, and because of that they prefer Extraction.

The most G decks run Green Sun's Zenith and Cage stops them by using that. G Decks also have Ooze.

In B Decks Leyline is just better than Cage.

Well... Mono-R Burn can play Cage... :laugh: ...the truth is that too many decks are in need of their own Graveyard / Library recursion that they dont want to use Cage.


That Loam into Stronghold into Chewer tech looks even more akward and complicated than simply dredging and casting a Thug, kill it and reccur Mr. Chompers.

Congratz, Jares and Dredgekid =D

@Jares: You said you didn't use your DR's all day, and still, you have beaten Surgical Extraction... how do you feel about it? I mean, diversifying our threats is something to consider while fighting Extraction.

Also, how do you feel about the 16th land?

I really like Firestorm in the main deck, and I usually play it over Faithless looting, the 16th land has to do with this choice of yours?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I'm super tired of explaining why Putrid Imp is trash, but if you're finding it's ability useful beyond Phantasmagorian then you should probably be SBing 4xAncient Grudge instead of stupid shit like Dread Return and FKZ - FKZ has to be the worst possible card you could ever SB in btw. And let me guess, every time you checked to see whether or not Putrid Imp would've been better than Phantasmagorian was when you were holding it in your hand with a land instead of counting the number of times it was sitting as a complete brick in your graveyard compared to Phantasmagorian?

---

C'Mon. Don't think that other people in this thread aren't tired of explaining to you why Putrid Imp is NOT trash. Phnatasmagorian is better in the graveyard and PImp is better in your opening hand (if you have a Land, yes), who would ever doubt that? I don't know what the person you quoted was refering to and if he was biased towards PImp/Phanta or not, but if we just look at hard facts (as far as that is possible), there are advantages for both as well as disadvantages for both.

Phanta builds can't be on the play. That is just a HUGE drawback nowadays. PImps can be hardcast and sometimes that just wins you the game, wheher it be with their attacks or via the additional body you get for flashback spells. PImp is awesome when it comes to playing around hate. Phanta is pretty useless until they crack their Crypt, because you can't overextend. Phanta-DDD builds w/o discard dorks have huge difficulties getting a Dredger in the bin again after they use anti hate, because they just got below 7 cards in hand and can't DDD right away. The advantages of Phanta should be clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Final Fortune

You'll pretty much always want Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim when 4 of your lands can't actually cast the latter.

---

Awesome argumentation for someone who doesn't even run CC and who thus doesn't have more mana sources to cast Chain than the rest of us has to cast Claim. You seem to be under the misconception that CC is actually a Land for this deck. It's not, the actual Lands in this deck are all gold and you usually have around 10-11. Cephalid Coliseum is an uncounterable CC1 spell that reads: Draw 3 discard 3, activate only with Threshold. And this is just as good as it can get for us. The fact that it can also work as a mana source in a lot of cases is just a bonus. A bonus that shows how completely insane that card is in this deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't think you'll ever need Firestorm as a SB card vs. anything, altho' I like MDing it. You're better off worrying about their hate (I don't really count GSZ/Ooze because it's slow and they have other stuff in the SB anyway, not to mention you can just time walk it with Chain of Vapor regardless) than getting in a cheap WoG.

---

I highly doubt that your DDD list always races Ooze and that you therefore don't need Firestorms in your sideboard. I don't think that each Dredge deck needs Firestorms, but that's mainly due to the fact that most of them can be on the play and race it. Maybe you can tell me how you race a turn 2 Ooze on the draw and with the DDD strategy? I'm curious. Wasting your next turn using Chain of Vapor on it can't be the solution, because they just recast the Ooze next turn and usually get two activations out of it right away (there goes our Time Walk), while you sit there with less than 7 cards in your grip.



Really, I think your approach is viable. I just think it's ridiculous to claim that your unusual build is just so much better than what everyone else plays, even though a build like yours has never placed anywhere while the aweful Putrid Imp builds somehow win tournaments, even if built imperfectly. People should be a bit more open-minded towards different ways of building decks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

Seems that he admits, that it was a mistake to run less than 4 Therapies / 4 Ichorids / 12 Dredgers. =P

---

It's a mistake fron the begining of time....

Hey guys,
I'm finally putting this deck together (I've played like 15 other decks in sanctioned Legacy tournaments). I've been out of the metagame loop for a couple months regarding GY hate. How many people are actually running Cage or Leyline? Do we have any kind of concrete information on this? The numbers seem low to me, but I just want to know if there are certain archtypes with Leylines and Cages in the board as the 'standard' SB. Like should I always bank on Burn playing Cage? Does Reanimator usually play Leyline? Thanks in advance.

I think LED Dredge with a couple Lotus Petals and Looting package is really, really powerful. It just never loses game 1, and it's definitely the best build to beat combo. I have no problem with boarding out Breakthroughs and LED's for Firestorms and more Ichorid/Dread Return. I would be interested in hearing why people aren't wanting to max out their game 1 percentage. Whether or not you play LED, post-SB games are pretty similar for every build (unless you want to race Storm).

EDIT: It looks like most Reanimator decks aren't running GY hate at all right now. Maybe 1 or 2 Coffin Purges or Surgicals on occasion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Straight.html

Adam Prosak wrote something about Dredge and his SCG Win...


Seems that he admits, that it was a mistake to run less than 4 Therapies / 4 Ichorids / 12 Dredgers. =P

---

It's interesting to me that Adam Prosak also references Richard Feldman's article (The Art of Dredge Fu) as one that has helped enlighten him in his Dredge deck-building (even if he got to read it after he already won :laugh:). I've noticed that there are quite a few of us here that don't really agree with everything that might be written there, but I'd like to share that most of the points raised in that article (some of which are reiterated in Adam Prosak's write-up) have really helped me learn things that I would have otherwise had to learn the hard way via experience (a.k.a. losing in tournaments). Instead, I'm now enjoying having placed well in tournaments ever since I picked-up dredge, and am now in the midst of criticizing my builds to further improve on what has already been working for me.

I know that there's still so much to learn (and that it will always be that way), and that makes it much more important for me to have a starting point like the "dredging philosophy" (for lack of a better term) that I learned in the said article.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Basic observations,

There's no reason to play the 4th Tarnished Citadel over 1xDread Return unless you like losing games to burn or Surgical Extraction, likewise I don't think you're going to get any mileage out of Cephalid Coliseum without LED or Tireless Tribe to set it up for a turn 1 or turn 2 activation. You really don't want to be blind casting Careful Study/Faithless Looting turn 1 into activating Cephalid Coliseum on turn 2, that's a fucking terrible play vs. anything you don't already face roll if that's what you're doing to go off with it consistently.

I'm super tired of explaining why Putrid Imp is trash, but if you're finding it's ability useful beyond Phantasmagorian then you should probably be SBing 4xAncient Grudge instead of stupid shit like Dread Return and FKZ - FKZ has to be the worst possible card you could ever SB in btw. And let me guess, every time you checked to see whether or not Putrid Imp would've been better than Phantasmagorian was when you were holding it in your hand with a land instead of counting the number of times it was sitting as a complete brick in your graveyard compared to Phantasmagorian?

You'll pretty much always want Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim when 4 of your lands can't actually cast the latter.

I don't think you'll ever need Firestorm as a SB card vs. anything, altho' I like MDing it. You're better off worrying about their hate (I don't really count GSZ/Ooze because it's slow and they have other stuff in the SB anyway, not to mention you can just time walk it with Chain of Vapor regardless) than getting in a cheap WoG.

---

It's even more tiring to read through gibberish that isn't based on sound arguments nor solid tournament results, Final Fortune. So please, if you really believe that you're correct and everyone else that's getting favorable results in their testing AND in their actual tournament experience is wrong, then show us that we're wrong by WINNING already. Otherwise, you can just wait until someone else does the winning/proving for you.

For the record, I haven't seen a single Phantasmagorian in any of the Dredge lists that have placed well after Mental Misstep was banned. I might not be as updated as I would like to be, and I would be happy to be proven wrong, as that will help add to what I can learn from SOUND ARGUMENTS and SOLID RESULTS.

Good Luck,
jares

For your reference, Final Fortune:

• Discarding > PImp: one at a time; Phant: three at a time. Edge: PImp.
• Ichorid Fodder > Edge: Draw (PImp might actually have the slight edge, as it's much easier to decide to exile a PImp rather than a Phant. Seems negligible though).
• Warm Body for DR/Therapy Fodder > PImp is a 1-CMC creature; Phant will require a DR to get into play. Edge: PImp.
• As a DR Target > PImp: 2/2 Flying; Phant: 6/6. Edge: Phant.
• Dependencies > PImp: Land; Phant: discard phase (having 8 cards) or dredging it into the graveyard. Edge: Draw (both dependencies have advantages/disadvantages).
• Weakness > PImp: Counterspells, Wasteland; Phant: Discard Effects. Edge: Phant (because counterspells are much more common).
• Ability to deviate from the primary line of play > PImp: can always opt to DDD; Phant: will always have to DDD, unless a dependency on another discard outlet is established. Edge: PImp.
• Ability to choose to be "on-the-draw" or "on-the-play" > PImp: can choose either; Phant: will have to choose to be on the draw (not being on the draw essentially grants a timewalk for the opponent; note that your opponent will have control over these choices 50% of the time). Edge: PImp.
• Option to Mulligan > PImp: Allows mulliganning whenever necessary; Phant: every mulligan essentially counts as a timewalk. Edge: PImp.
  
  • Note that it has been suggested (by Final Fortune) that the presence of Phant in the deck may increase the "keepability" (for lack of a better word) of certain opening hands.

The comparisons above are based on the points that you've raised, and a few that I've previously noted. In summary, we have 2 draws, 2 in favor of Phant, and 5 in favor of PImp. I believe that these comparisons also need to be weighted, though, so this is, by no means, a reflection of whether or not PImp or Phant is better or worse - it just shows that PImp has the upper hand based on the number of considerations presented. Do let us know if there are any other considerations that may have been missed.

Also, let's please try to stop making excuses for these OBVIOUS considerations by saying that the comparisons between these two cards aren't as linear as presented - unless of course you're able to present the non-linear considerations for these comparisons. In other words, if you've got a point, just prove it already rather than continue to whine about tournament/testing results that are perennially disagreeing with you. For all we know, you might be right, and you owe it to yourself to back those ideas up with SOUND ARGUMENTS and SOLID RESULTS.

Good Luck,
jares

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Final Fortune

You'll pretty much always want Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim when 4 of your lands can't actually cast the latter.

---

I agree with you on this, as this is also one of my major considerations when choosing between the two. You'll notice, though, that I run more Gold Lands than the usual, so the [2x] Nature's Claim is less likely to cause problems because of this distinction of my build. I'm still unsure if the 2-2 split is the best way to go, though, but if I were to choose between the two, I'd choose Chain of Vapor because of its versatility and consistency (for being blue).

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dravus Mallinard

Congrats Jares,

but i'm curious about one point. Your blind therapy agains Scavenging Ooze... sure that this is a strong card vs. dredge, but they use to play just 1 or 2 copies in Maverick.

Usually, if I'm on the play ... I say GSZ. If i'm on the draw and they have already played it for dryad ... Than I dont expect they have another.

Tell us if you had any clue from their behavior that helped in your choice... Also for the blind therapy against tormod's ... or was it game 3 and you were on the play ??

---

This was how the scenario of the "Blind Therapy for Scavenging Ooze" happened:

• My opponent played GSZ into Dryad Arbor during his first turn.
• During my second turn (I was on the play), I dredged into a lot of cards, and had enough "resources" to play Cabal Therapy.
• I was considering the following after my Cabal Therapy resolved:
  
  • There's a small chance that my opponent has another GSZ in his hand (+1 Ooze).
  • Given that there's usually just 1 Scavenging Ooze in the deck, there's still a greater probability that he has another GSZ than a Scavenging Ooze (+1 GSZ).
  • If he didn't have a land to play on his next turn, he could still cast the Ooze, but won't be able to cast GSZ into the Ooze on his next turn (+1 Ooze).
  • If he did have a land, he would be able to cast the Ooze and still have one mana open to disrupt my development. If he were to cast a GSZ, that open mana won't be there, and I would already have enough board presence to grind-out a win (+1 Ooze).
  • In summary, even if there was a greater probability that my opponent had a GSZ rather than an Ooze, the current game state showed me that I would gain more by ensuring that he didn't have an Ooze (GSZ=1, Ooze=3). Surprisingly, I hit 2x Ooze in his hand :laugh:.

This was how the scenario for the "Blind Therapy for Tormod's Crypt happened:

• Game 2 was dominated by Wheel of Sun and Moon coming in during the second turn.
• I was able to prolong game 2 long enough to prompt my opponent to drop a Tormod's Crypt even while Wheel of Sun and Moon was still in play. At that point, the game was already in his control, and he was simply "making sure" that he would be able to answer any tricks that I might have up my sleeve. From my point of view, I was simply taking in as much info as I can get regarding how he used his sideboard to address the match-up.
• As expected, I lost game 2, and we both mulled to 6 before game 3 started. I was on the play, and my opening hand contained a PImp, a Faithless Looting, and Cabal Therapy. I was about to cast PImp, but then realized that I would probably be better-off sniping for some hate given that my opponent mulled once to probably get some, so I went on to cast Cabal Therapy.
• After Cabal Therapy resolved, these were my thoughts:
  
  • If my opponent had a Wheel of Sun and Moon, I would still have the next turn to Flashback the Cabal Therapy after playing my PImp.
  • If my opponent had a Tormod's Crypt, I would no longer be able to address that card during my next turn.
  • The choice was pretty obvious.
  • After the game, I realized that I would not have made the right choice had I not continued to play game 2 even if I was likely to lose that game anyway.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Basic observations,

There's no reason to play the 4th Tarnished Citadel over 1xDread Return unless you like losing games to burn or Surgical Extraction, likewise I don't think you're going to get any mileage out of Cephalid Coliseum without LED or Tireless Tribe to set it up for a turn 1 or turn 2 activation. You really don't want to be blind casting Careful Study/Faithless Looting turn 1 into activating Cephalid Coliseum on turn 2, that's a fucking terrible play vs. anything you don't already face roll if that's what you're doing to go off with it consistently.

I'm super tired of explaining why Putrid Imp is trash, but if you're finding it's ability useful beyond Phantasmagorian then you should probably be SBing 4xAncient Grudge instead of stupid shit like Dread Return and FKZ - FKZ has to be the worst possible card you could ever SB in btw. And let me guess, every time you checked to see whether or not Putrid Imp would've been better than Phantasmagorian was when you were holding it in your hand with a land instead of counting the number of times it was sitting as a complete brick in your graveyard compared to Phantasmagorian?

You'll pretty much always want Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim when 4 of your lands can't actually cast the latter.

I don't think you'll ever need Firestorm as a SB card vs. anything, altho' I like MDing it. You're better off worrying about their hate (I don't really count GSZ/Ooze because it's slow and they have other stuff in the SB anyway, not to mention you can just time walk it with Chain of Vapor regardless) than getting in a cheap WoG.

---

FinalFortune, please lose the attitude and the cursing. I keep the forum clean when I express my opinions and I do not talk down to people I disagree with, please act in kind.

Your arguments are not exactly valid. You are saying people need to take out PImp for Phant, but you want them to play tribe to get full mileage out of coliseum. Let me ask you this, in what way is tribe remotely better than pimp? Pimp can fly, hit for 2 (both of which are relevant), and most importantly is black and therefore Ichorid fodder.

There is nothing wrong with casting study/looting for your discard. I do have to ask, if that is a terrible play, why do you advocate firestorm in the main? You realize that unless they have a turn 1 creature, you will be storming for 2 and discarding the exact same amount as a study or looting? Why would I dilute my decks draw power to fit in a discard outlet that discards the exact same amount.

As far as PImp vs. Phant, while no one has been able to definitively say which is better, I feel like the burden of proof is in Phant for coming up with numbers because PImp is tried and true and was here first. I feel like each has its merit, but to say Phant is 100% better without providing numbers is obviously going to be met with skepticism and with your attitude, distaste.