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Yes, the sideboarded Mountain is def. a valid option - though I didn't test it good enough. Besides forcing the Fetchlandconfig to change (which is no problem) it opens up the possibility to play 1-2 Karakas in the Mainboard, may be worth the idea.
Greetings
On my mobile, forgive my formatting. I think you still want pyroclasm against fast decks thqt cant or wont be playing the new merfolk. Terminus, verdict, and ee still get him. Im still on the e. Tutor build so i can get people with blood moons, and my answer here is Moat. Moat answers most of the format in general, lile Jund, Bug, elves, merfolk, etc. I think if youre not on the tutor builds, packing an extra supreme verdict in the board should be sufficient bringing your total removal count for nemesis to 3 terminus, 1-2 ee, and 2 verdict. Only time will tell how good tnn is, and if it s very good, i think miracles is in the best spot to deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
You're overly stating Moat just a little. Jund can still punishing fire. Both Jund and Bug still have the possibility of Liliana ultimate to get rid of Moat. Merfolk actually has counter to fight over Moat. Yes, Moat can shutdown elves, but elves have DRS as a backdoor win condition. Goblins can still seige-gang, some now have Wear//Tear.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Keep it mind, Reverent Silence is still a very real SB card in many decks. Overall, the plus side of Moat is the synergy with Angels, which is very appealing.
Moat has been so good for me against a number of strategies that I'm considering a second copy. I agree with sdematt here too. Just because Pyroclasm doesn't hit Nemesis doesn't mean that it isn't a valid sweeper anymore. Relatively few decks will be able to really utilize him and even those will generally have a ton of other good targets for Pyroclasm. If I'm wrong and Nemesis is literally just everywhere and in really high numbers then I'll head back to the drawing board.
Yes, it really does depend on the appearance Nemesis will make at both, BoM and GP DC. We can only speculate but I'd be very surprised if it didn't power up numerous already exisiting archetypes or even create a new one - but that's another topic.
Without Nemesis I am a big fan of Pyroclasm - always was - since GP Strasbourg. But I really wouldn't include it any more after now. Yes it hits alot of targets that are not called Nemesis, but failing at the "Kill-the-Nemesis"-class is not a good thing to do right now. Yes, we have additional removal, but I really don't want to put all my faith into my 3 Terminus and my 1of Verdict, I really don't want. There is nothing bad by adding more answers to Nemesis, yes they are not as easy to cast but have other application-areas as well - as you all know.
Time will tell, though - but I am pretty sure that my list for GP Paris in February won't contain any number of Pyroclasms. Feel free to call me out on this one.
Greetings
On the subject of True-Name Nemesis, and hard to deal with creatures, Runed Halo, Ensnaring Bridge, Story Circle, and Porphyry Nodes are also possible options to deal with such cards. They each have subtle or not so subtle drawbacks and benefits, but I have used all of them in various decks in the past and been quite happy with them most of the time. That said, I'm not really inclined to go into a debate about the usefulness of these cards at the moment. (Although, I will comment that I like Story Circle and Ensnaring Bridge's ability to deal with Batterskull.) Rather, I thought I would throw some other options out there for people to consider, at least for those who feel like the True-Name Nemesis sky is falling down on them.
I think you're overstating my statement on Moat. I said it answers most of the format, in general. I didn't say you can sit there like a limp starfish if you have a Moat down. Sure, Liliana ultimate is a thing, and so is Punishing Fires, but that's also why I'm running Leyline of Sanctity.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
As I said, Moat helps you stem the tide of many problems while you actually go find a win condition. P-Fires nor Liliana nor DRS are going to mean anything when you end of turn Entreat for lethal damage.
-Matt
I like your ideas sdematt.
mind to share your list?
Meekstone isn't the worst either. I've never played Ensnaring Bridge in Miracles, is keeping our hand in the 1-2 card range an issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
By the time that you've got Bridge out, you can cast every spell you'd draw. Mostly, I bring it in for the real fatties like Grisselb, Emrakul the anus torn, and even a bigger Knight or Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
To make it doubly excellent in the S&T matchup, it also flips for 3 HASHTAGVALUE!
Sure. It's a bit of an older list, but I've liked it. The Venser is replacing a Clique from my list that I've played for ages, but I'm trying to see how the Venser wagon is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
4 Island
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
1 Mystic Gate
2 Volcanic Island
23
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
22
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Snapcaster Mage (new addition, not sure if I'll up him or keep him, etc. This was Elspeth, which was amazing)
16
//BOARD
(My traditional list)
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear/Tear
1 Blood Moon (just can't get enough)
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
or..
(The list I played recently)
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear/Tear
1 Blood Moon (just can't get enough)
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Pyroclasm
2 Misdirection
Leylines were good when they were good, but at the most recent tournament, I didn't need them, so I didn't pack them.
Hi guys.
I haven't played my Miracles deck for a while, but i'm considering picking it up again.
I just have some questions:
How is Moat performing? Is it worth the investment?
I've been following Joe Lossett's streams for a while (on and off) and keep my list somewhat updated based on his list. But i would really like to find place to the 4th Swords to Plowshares
For reference, this is my list:
Land (23)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
Enchantment (5)
4x Counterbalance
1x Rest in Peace
Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Terminus
Creature (4)
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Misdirection
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Terminus
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear
Feel free to come with suggestions :)
/Rook
Lossett streams? Can I get a link for future reference?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
The guy's been my Legacy idol for a while now, didn't even know he did much like that, so it'd be cool to get a real insight. I've recently switched to a Clique/Venser build over Rip Helm, which is more in line with his style. Playing Creatures just simplifies things. It's fairly similar to your build.
Also, REB is better than Pyro. The split is less effective than slight protection from Misdirection. (They can redirect a Pyro at a FoW to your Counterbalance/Jace/Creature, whereas with REB it's just a counterspell.)
Here is my current list. Moat has over-performed this far, as most decks have 0-1 outs against it. At that point you only need to deal with deathrite or delver, depending on the matchup. Tidehollows have also been spectacular. They're everything and more than meddling Mage hoped to be. An Enlightened tutor may find it's way into my board as it fetches moat, humility, even tidehollow sculler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
Creatures:4
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Rest in Peace
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
3 Force of Will
3 Terminus
Lands:23
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:15
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Rest in Peace
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Humility
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
Agreed. Decks like Shardless BUG have to find singleton Maelstrom Pulses or ultimate a Liliana to really deal with it. I've been running 1-2 Humility in the side as well, which, in tandem, is game over for many decks (I'm on a heavier RiP version with Helm/E Field).Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
There is anybody testing "Unexpectedly Absent"? I think this card deserves some attention. It is a flexible removal card that maybe has a place in snapcaster builds.
I thought about using it, and then I remembered my venser does almost the same thing and is reusable with karakas. I could however see my flex spot (currently RIP) changing to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by cschacal
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79
I like a lot of what Lossett does, but I've never been a fan of cutting a Swords. 4 MD sweepers is fine and good, but even still, I'd run the full set of Swords.
I've liked Moat a whole lot. Completely won a game against Slivers all by itself today. He had Crystalline, double Muscle, and Mutavault in play and all my Swords and spot removal were super dead. I drop to like 7 or something. EoT I Enlightened Tutor for Moat. Untap, Moat, win. I've had similar experiences against Death and Taxes and Merfolk.
18-player tournament tonight, went 3-1-1.
Round 1: Lands, 2-0
Round 2: Slivers, 2-0
Round 3: Oops All Spells 0-2 (that's right... wah wah...)
G1, I know what he's on so I mull to 6 looking for FoW. I keep FoW, Jace, Plains, Mystic Gate, Entreat, Terminus. I play Plains and pass. He goes Chrome Mox -> Dark Ritual -> Grim Monolith -> Balustrade Spy. I FoW and he passes. I play Mystic Gate, drawing Jace. I miss my 4th land drop and continue to draw nothing. He eventually refills and goes off again on turn 4 or so? This time he gets there.
G2, I keep a hand of Brainstorm, FoW, Clique, Venser, Counterbalance, REB, Top, Volcanic. Play Volcanic and pass. He goes Street Wraith x3 then Lotus Petal -> Dark Ritual -> Manamorphose -> Cabal Therapy. I BS, drawing Counterspell, Clique, fetchland, putting back CB and Clique. He names FoW and I die. Apparently he also had the Pact of Negation, just in case. Perhaps I should have either FoW'd his Dark Ritual or his Manamorphose, but I'm not really sure.
Round 4: Junk Dark Depths, 2-1
I drew Karakas all three games, which was awesome (props to double Karakas). In two of the games, he played an early Pithing Needle (one on Top, one on Jace). In both Needle games, I was eventually able to get CB on the board and Venser his Needle back to hand, CB locking it from coming back down. I lost game 2 because I boarded all of my FoW's out and didn't realize he was running this card: Rite of Consumption, which allowed him to kill me through Karakas and Swords. G3, I bring back in FoWs and things go smoothly again.
Round 5: ANT, ID
There were multiple occasions when I'm facing lethal on my opponent's next turn, I dig/top and find a Sword, sad face. I wish that Sword's a mass removal. This usually is the case against Goblin/Delver... or any other Vial decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
If you run snapcasters, you should run 4 Swords. Other than that reasoning, I would just follow what Oarsman does.
That is not true. Once the mode has been chosen redirecting it cannot change the mode. The only time that is relevant is if your opponent has a delver or something blue that's a permanent and you want to pyroblast it. There are not other blue permanents but it can get redirected to a land and do nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Otherwise, pyroblast has more advantages. Hits non-blue phantasmal images, is good with Ebridge or storm, etc.
Pyroblast isn't Modal, REB is. That's why REB is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I geberally cut an StP from draft list really early. We play inherently more removal than half the format as it is, and we are left with ~6 1-mana removal Spells, and a 4-mana uncounterable Sweeper, so it's mostly fine. If you're essentially cutting it for a Moat, then you're swapping it for another pseudo-sweeper, so you remain on the same amounts of answers to Creatures, just a more varied (and expensive) range.
EDIT: Also; Bridge is bad for a deck attempting to keep control, and therefore a full grip, and we are not a Storm deck so why is that relevant?
Nice result! Although, I think -- usually Slivers can get to fly so Moat isn't an auto-win. Slivers are a real pain when they render your counters and spot removal useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
According to the errata on both cards they both modal?
They're both modal:Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pyroblast&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Red+e...v=card&s=cname
The difference between the two is negligible at this point, but I have beta red blasts, so that's what I play. I don't even bother with the split, b/c if an opponent wants to cut me off red blasts with Meddling Mage instead of naming Jace or Entreat or Top, they're more than welcome.
Also, the Phantasmal Image interaction is only relevant if you have a non-blue creature for them to copy, which is why pyro is better in RUG. For us, though, pretty irrelevant.
It's possible I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'll regret it if I ever get cabal therapy'ed with two in hand, but for now I'm sticking with REB b/c they're prettier, and that's good enough for me.
They're both modal. REB is I think correct to play in this deck so it won't get misdirected from Jace to a nonblue permanent. Not hugely relevant though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakgotbak
Pyro is better in deck where casting a spell that does nothing is good in addition to the Phantasmal Image thing. (building storm, making Young Pyromance tokens, filling the graveyard for DRS or lavamancer, etc)
How does he cast Manamorphose off a Dark Ritual?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Well bollocks my whistle I was wrong. Whatever, then.
Moat Vs Slivers definitely doesn't seem like an auto-win, but whatever it's Slivers and Terminus and Verdict should basically be it the game.
^^^
Well Drza kept 8 cards, so fuck knows what was going on in that game.
Yeah, that doesn't add up. Either way, counter the first fast mana from that deck if you can, that will stop them for at least a turn. (dark ritual in this case)Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
EDIT:
Yeah, the reporting seems a bit off for that game...Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Hey best friend team, here's my upcoming "Big-Tourney Deck," which I would love some feedback on. I've been playing a "creatureless" version and loving it, with a maindeck Blood Moon. I know there's a fierce Pro Blood Moon / Anti Blood Moon argument, but I think it's relatively easy to filter out and can be a damn shutout against 50% of the decks out there. I currently like my enchantment-heavy build, but know there is room for improvement and flex spots to cut stuff out.
I've found lately that 22 lands with only 8 early-game ways to filter can sometimes get me into trouble and I've been having issues getting a T1 Top, plus my blue count seems a little low for FoW. Given that I'm expecting True Name Nemesis to come out in full force very soon and possibly at SCG LA, I'm thinking another MD Terminus might not be a bad idea.
And lastly, I think my sideboard definitely needs some tweaking.
Without further ado, here we go. I really appreciate yo' feedback.
//Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
//Sorceries
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
//Enchantments
1 Energy Field
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
//Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Lands
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
//Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Moat
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Kyle - I like that list a lot, pretty close to where I'm at. A few questions though -
1) You really like having 6 pitch counters main? that seems like a lot, especially considering how little misdirection has done for me. Has it been good for you?
2) No Oblivion Ring / D Sphere / EE tutorable general answer effect main? any particular reasoning there or was it just the weakest card and got cut?
Sideboard-wise, I really don't feel like needle does enough these days, what have you felt like you need it against?
If you're worried about Nemesis, I would prefer to use a Supreme Verdict. Nemesis seems to fit well in those tempo and blade strats and having an uncounterable answer seems better than the fourth terminus. It's also blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
I think with 4 FoW and 2 Misdirection you have too many pitch effects, and if you ever use one you will probably find yourself unable to cast the other.
I would suggest either cutting down to 3 FoW, or moving 1 of the misdirections to the board (possibly replacing 1 needle, you run tutors so seeing it when you need it shouldn't be too much a problem, and I don't think I would ever want to see multiple needles)
Karakas also seems kind of random with only 2 cliques in the sb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarapfish
I should say that it's not that Moat should or will always be an auto-win, but in this case he looked at it and said that he had no answers and scooped. He had ended up boarding out his Galerider Slivers for Phyrexian Revokers. I told him after that it was probably wrong, but he still seemed to think it was fine. Regardless, Moat is still solid against them since they have to actually draw their flying sliver and not have it get Swords'd or REB'd. Crystalline is the worst part of this MU by far.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Good point lol. It was kind of late when I got home and wrote this... I must not have had the other Clique from the opener.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Sorry ;p ... again, it was kind of late. He pitched a Spirit Guide somewhere in the sequence.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Yeah, this is the conclusion that I came to. A better line would have been FoW the Ritual and hold up REB/Brainstorm, hoping that I can Brainstorm EoT and find the second land for Counterbalance. I'm fairly certain that leaving Venser on top would ensure that I cannot die since regardless of which creature he goes for, he cannot cast Dread Return. Possibly it's better to even let the creature resolve if you can put a 4-drop on top, let him dump his deck, then just be all in on countering his Dread Return? I don't think they have access to offensive shuffles or any way to disrupt the top of your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I agree that 6 pitch spells is too much. Probably you want no more than 4 MD, although I agree with alphastryk and am not a fan of Misdirection. (Needle has also been very lackluster for me lately.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
The Energy Field sort of takes the place of the 4th sweeper MD, but you wouldn't do badly to have the Supreme Verdict in the SB regardless.
I'd feel a bit worried about having only ORing and Humility as relevant drops off SNT (and Humility is only good against Sneak Attack). I'd consider adding a Venser or something to your SB. I am completely in love with Venser.
Thanks for the responses everyone, yes, the maindeck Misdirections are the weakest cards I think right now, and my blue count is a little low for 4 FoWs, so I changed up my list a little more:
//MD
-2 Misdirection
-1 Force of Will
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Counterspell
//SB
-1 Flusterstorm
+1 Supreme Verdict
This takes me to 60 cards exactly (I was at 61 before).
I absolutely love Venser and used to use him a lot in the past, but he can be really clunky at times. He is definitely an "answer to everything" in many cases and then gives the Karakas some real warrant, but I'm now at a position where I should figure out whether or not the Cliques should be MD, which requires more cutting from my current build and strategy.
I'm having a bit of a mental block as to what I should cut or swap next. If I'm expecting a lot of combo at SCG:LA, should I tweak more of the MD at this point? Should I put a MD Flusterstorm instead of the Counterspell? So many decisions...
Regarding the Pithing Needles, I have found them to be quite useful to name Liliana, DrShaman, Metalworker, and Forgemaster, but maybe the Needles could be something better.
In my experience Vendilion clique has been one of the most over performing cards in the deck. I'm playing 3 in the main and would never look back. They are good in literally every matchup. Taking Lilliana, disrupting combo, providing a clock vs combo and even pressuring already present planeswalkers. You can also cycle dead cards in your hand. On top of that, I often find myself "clique locking" my opponent with karakas and recasting it on their draw step every turn. The body also trades with nimble mongoose, delvers, attacking pyromancers, bobs, and small goyfs which combined with it's ability can be utterly devastating to an opponent.
Clique + Karakas worked over Lands really well the other night. I felt marginally bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
Yes, my past (once preferred) list ran 2 Cliques and 1 Venser, but didn't have much room with this enchantment-heavy build. I'll keep tweaking, but I'm unsure what to cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
If you have any interest look back for my punishing miracles list. It's pretty sweet haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her? It's often difficult to counter her as it's likely a Liliana player will have already ripped the FoW and/or Spell Pierce out of your hand. I've seen, mostly as reactive options:
- Pithing Needle
- Oblivion Ring
- Detention Sphere
- Celestial Purge
- Engineered Explosives
- Venser, Shaper Savant
- Vendilion Clique (not an insta-kill, just an answer to kill her)
I know in the past people have talked about Bonfire of the Damned in this thread as a Miracles archetype idea if you went a heavy-red route, but could it be that it's a pretty decent idea as a 1- or 2-of in the sideboard even in red-splash builds? It can't be cast if there's an active Teeg out, but maybe it's decent enough - for just 3 mana it could sweep most of your opponent's creatures and a Planeswalker. Just an idea...
I don't think Liliana is scary enough of a threat to warrant any extra dedicated cards. Unless your meta is full of Jund and Shardless BUG, 3 Cliques plus Venser is usually enough to deal with her. With tight play and the correct game plan, Liliana is very beatable, assuming she doesn't come down turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Liliana is scariest earliest in the game. We aren't super afraid of her plusing, and her sacrifice ability isn't usually that relevant. We are only afraid of her ultimate, which kills our lands. It's scariest early because we have few ways to stop her. Once we hit 3 lands, Clique can come in end of turn and take a huge chunk out of Liliana, usually preventing her from minusing without killing herself or sometimes just killing Liliana directly. If Liliana has built up to 5-6 counters, Venser can come in to reset her (sometimes in response to her plus, which is amazing). I find that letting Liliana discard both of our hands, and then letting Venser get rid of her and put us both in top deck mode actually favors us, especially if we have Top in play. Of course, that's not always going to happen, and sometimes Liliana ultimate will get you, but even then, it's not the end of the world. You can Entreat in response, or slowly build up your lands again if they don't have the pressure. Either way, your game plan should be Clique and Venser. If you can't deal with Liliana immediately, turn 2 (and turn 3 to an extent) Liliana should probably warrant a Force. Even better if you can snag it with Spell Pierce (and why I run 3 main).
Out of the board, you also have Explosives (and Needle I guess, but I wouldn't board that in against Jund/BUG). I would stay away from narrow cards like Celestial Purge.
Like people have been saying, Clique is absolutely amazing. Run 3.