[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by Reagens

What I also think though is that grinding station has become to slow and you should play the fastest possible version at this point in time.
For myself I am playing a hybrid list very akin to TES (for the speed + burning wish board) but with the possibility to go grinding station post-board.

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This.

This was one of the reasons why I brought it up on the last page. Grixis Delver, which is quickly becoming the number 1 deck in the format, totally rips Grinding Station apart, because you have no way to natural-storm through multiple Therapies. Add in a DRS to shut off PiF and you're done. Winning the game via Ad Nauseam before they get the chance to cast Therapy with Pyromancer in play is the best way to win that matchup consistently.

It's just a general trend at this point. DRS and discard spells are on a resurgence, and those are the number one enemies of Grinding Station in the format. DnT being a little more popular since they can play 8 Thalias doesn't help either. There are so many reasons to be winning the game as fast as possible right now. The metagame isn't 40% UR Delver and UWR.dec any more. That was the metagame that made Grinding Station strong.

2 Past in Fames / 3 Storm spells is not that much slower than lists with Ad Nauseam. The difference is less than a full turn in general and both decks have the opponent dead by turn three roughly the same amount of time, only that Grinding Station is a little more resilient in that. It is true, however, that Deathrite + discard + counters is exactly the thing you don't want to face with Grinding Station (in fact, these are the only kind of decks I have lost to in all the Grand Prix I played Storm in). But Grixis Delver is not one of these decks. They usually don't have any discard before sideboarding, so that's exactly the kind of deck you want to play against. After sideboarding, things get rough, but I like boarding a couple copies of Empty the Warrens against them, which really stretches what they need to do.

Switching to the fastest version possible is exactly the point I was making in my article - you are not trying to win by playing better, you are looking for deck advantage by shutting off interaction. At that point, it becomes mostly a game of chance who will win and I just don't think the deck is well-positioned enough in most metagames.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Switching to the fastest version possible is exactly the point I was making in my article - you are not trying to win by playing better, you are looking for deck advantage by shutting off interaction. At that point, it becomes mostly a game of chance who will win and I just don't think the deck is well-positioned enough in most metagames.

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Deck choice and deck building is just as much part of magic as getting your cantrips right.
Is Bryant Cook very lucky when he consistently puts up results with his iteration of storm? You seem to think he lacks the skill to play the 'more difficult' version. You also come over as pretty condescending when you say only long(er) games count as a test for playskills and the part where you say permanent hate requires no skill whatsoever doesn't make that much better (counterbalance is a pretty skill intensive card, as is top). And yes, variance (or luck as you call it) is part of the game. But you know what? Decks with a plethora of cantrips have variance as well. But when storm topdeck a missing piece it's more clear cut then a delver deck always flipping them on the first try (because normally you go and win the same turn you draw that particular piece and delver needs to connect a few times).
Of all the decks I played in legacy there is not one I think was easy or which I played flawlessly. Some decks however show your mistakes more clearly then others (and thus allow for a slightly faster learning curve at the start) . Don't get both mixed up because you'll deny yourself the opportunity to become a better player.
From what I get from your article you should probably set aside storm for a while and play something else. But please don't blame it on the metagame or whatever. If your mindgames are no longer working it might be that people are on to you or have adapted to your playstyle. The deck is DTB and putting up consistent results in very different versions.

Sorry for not being clear. Yes, choosing the correct list is a skill. Likewise, if two players are just goldfishing each other, that will favour the player who makes better decisions in-game. I'm not saying there is no skill involved in doing these things correctly. I'm not even saying one is easier than the other. But once you get the basics of optimising your draws, improving further will barely pay off. Have you looked at the spreadsheet from my cantrip article? That's hours of work internalising these numbers just to get 5-10% more to find a card in some corner-case scenario.
The point is, when two players interact directly, that will favour the one who makes the better decision in that situation much more than slightly improving cantrip odds. The more frequently this comes up, the more the better in-game player will be favoured.

By the way, Top and Counterbalance don't really qualify as permanent hate. While they are permanents via their card types, they don't have permanent effects. Does not forgetting a Trinisphere or Meddling Mage or Null Rod on the board really require skill? Chalice of the Void is somewhere in between, but once you go to Magic Online, there is no way to mess up Chalice triggers either.
Also, at no point did I use the word "luck". I am talking about variance, yes. But I am not complaining about it. (Note how I refer to the Storm vs. D&T matchup.) I am saying that maybe there's a way to play to your strengths and thereby improving your win rate.

As you said yourself, some decks allow you to improve pretty fast soon after you start playing them. Other decks only start rewarding skill once a certain threshold is reached, but the payoff will be huge then. I can go more in depth with this, but this thread is certainly not the place to do so. Either way, Storm certainly belongs in the first group.

One last thing, the DTB section of this forum is one month behind. Storm was quite big in July, but it's already been waning in August. Also, don't mistake popularity for power. Back when Innistrad came out, people played Snapcaster Mage over Nimble Mongoose in Canadian Threshold. Later, they dropped Stifle in favour of cards like Gitaxian Probe. Over time, both Mongoose and Stifle found their ways back into the deck, but when they weren't played as much, the other lists obviously had more top finishes.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

As you said yourself, some decks allow you to improve pretty fast soon after you start playing them. Other decks only start rewarding skill once a certain threshold is reached, but the payoff will be huge then. I can go more in depth with this, but this thread is certainly not the place to do so. Either way, Storm certainly belongs in the first group.

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Interesting, you sure you didn't mean to say Storm belongs in the second group?

Yes.

The confusion here is that you in your article addressed storm as an archetype rather than your specific deck, Grinding Station.

Honestly I'm not sure at this point why the TES and ANT thread aren't just combined. Yes they aren't the exact same deck but they are both ritual based tendril's decks. Heck at this point Ad Nauseam isn't even the main focus of most decks in this thread.

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Originally Posted by firstshot

Honestly I'm not sure at this point why the TES and ANT thread aren't just combined. Yes they aren't the exact same deck but they are both ritual based tendril's decks. Heck at this point Ad Nauseam isn't even the main focus of most decks in this thread.

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Sure, they're both ritual based storm decks. But they actually function differently, Natural Storm & PIF vs ETW & Ad Nauseam. I think that justifies separate threads.

Not to mention TES runs Wish and we do not. The million Delver decks are kept separate for a reason, likewise for Storm.

At the very least this thread should be renamed.

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Originally Posted by firstshot

At the very least this thread should be renamed.

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Eh, names have a historical significance and recognition just as much if not more than an actual descriptive purpose. Using a sports analogy, the Lakers and Jazz retain their names although their current geographic areas do not have the same connotations as where they originated from.

See: Solidarity

This deck will always be called ANT

FWIW I agree that the name should probably be switched to something more appropriate as it's misleading and non-accurate.

CRS (Cabal Ritual Storm)
PIFT (Past in Flames Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

FWIW I agree that the name should probably be switched to something more appropriate as it's misleading and non-accurate.

CRS (Cabal Ritual Storm)
PIFT (Past in Flames Tendrils)

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Originally Bryant wanted to call it TIS (The Inferior Storm)

:wink:

Amazing
Natural
Tendrils

"This deck is tits."

(The Infernal Tendrils Storm)

I can live with the last suggestion ;). Apart from that, the deck still uses Ad Nauseam and people know it either as ANT or if they're not that familiar with legacy, storm combo will do fine which is also part of the thread name. I fail to see how TES is any better a description of a deck than ANT.

ANT & Grinding Station are the same deck at this point. It's simply Cabal Ritual Storm. TES is different enough to warrant its own thread.

You know, people have been petitioning to change this deck name since I first heard about it in 2013, and probably before that. It ain't happening.

At least people gave up on LDV since then, that was annoying to hear about lol

you should think about becoming a better player rather than renaming shit everytime a card changes... now there is 8 ball, tds, grinding station, VED, DDFT, SI, TES, ANT for DR based storm "types" someone mercifully deleted vant, pift, pant and i forgot the rest... whats next? CRS (sounds like a news channel), tits (would love if new cool deck), pint (prefer to drink in litres), epic veterant DDDPPT burning storm ball... ant just live with it, changin the old thread was enough insolence for this decade and probably the only chance to change it... if someone doesn't know and can't figure it out from the thread he shouldn't be there probably...

Legacy deck names has always been abysmal, so it's fine.

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Originally Posted by L10

Legacy deck names has always been abysmal, so it's fine.

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I feel the exact opposite
until scg tried to normalize the nomenclature things were just fine, creator names the deck and I'm much more happy to have a Crime city (deck with specific setup) and BURG (a deck with distinct genesys) rather than patriot/jeskai whatever nonsense /Xc delver mixup, after years you can still tell where the deck came from (like Ant or Canadian threshold) renaming it to Pift and RUG delver creates more costs and confusion than seemingly steeper learning curve for a beginner

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

renaming it to Pift and RUG delver creates more costs and confusion than seemingly steeper learning curve for a beginner

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As a beginner I couldn't agree more. I've known exactly what ANT was for a long time, but I kept seeing posts about "Grinding Station" and took me way too long to figure out that it was it was.

Though partially that was due to Grinding Station not being in any of the decklists, which I assumed it would be. So there's potential that if Ad Nauseam ever gets removed from the 75 entirely, it could be confusing for someone new to the deck.

I actually agree with you, Slosh. I don't think our statements are opposites. But I think Legacy deck names are abysmal because a) it does tell you anything upfront (Maverick? Spanish Inquisition?) or b) too generic (Xyz Delver). I'd rather keep the deck name ANT, even if PiFT is probably more accurate. CRS is not as accurate because it can be also mistaken for other storm decks, like SI.

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Originally Posted by L10

I actually agree with you, Slosh. I don't think our statements are opposites. But I think Legacy deck names are abysmal because a) it does tell you anything upfront (Maverick? Spanish Inquisition?) or b) too generic (Xyz Delver). I'd rather keep the deck name ANT, even if PiFT is probably more accurate. CRS is not as accurate because it can be also mistaken for other storm decks, like SI.

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I like the silly old decknames with a story. Yes, decknames such as Cheerios, Death & Taxes, Spanish Inquisition, Tin Fins, Full English Breakfast, Maverick, Nic Fit, Team America, Team Italia, and Solidarity don't make a ton of sense, but they somehow fit Legacy culture much better to me than GW (Selesnya..) Midrange.

However, I can also live with descriptive names such as RUG Delver (not Temur? Delver though..) over Canadian Threshold if people insist.

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

I like the silly old decknames with a story. Yes, decknames such as Cheerios, Death & Taxes, Spanish Inquisition, Tin Fins, Full English Breakfast, Maverick, Nic Fit, Team America, Team Italia, and Solidarity don't make a ton of sense, but they somehow fit Legacy culture much better to me than GW (Selesnya..) Midrange.

However, I can also live with descriptive names such as RUG Delver (not Temur? Delver though..) over Canadian Threshold if people insist.

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Maybe it's just me, but if someone says "Maverick" i know that he/she is talking about a GWx deck with manadorks, Plows, Hatebears and fat beaters like KotR/SFM/Goyf. "Selesnya Midrange" can be anything from a discard-less TheRock (right the next Problem...) to GW Astral Slide

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Maybe it's just me, but if someone says "Maverick" i know that he/she is talking about a GWx deck with manadorks, Plows, Hatebears and fat beaters like KotR/SFM/Goyf. "Selesnya Midrange" can be anything from a discard-less TheRock (right the next Problem...) to GW Astral Slide

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This is exactly my feeling on the topic of "silly names". One of my favorite examples continuing to be "Quick 'n' Toast". Sometimes people do take it a bit far and will use any excuse to get their great and awesome silly name idea slapped on a deck primer, but many other silly names say more about the deck than a legitimate name ever could. Sure, it requires a basic grasp of the format to make sense of, but at least they provide a service to the veterans whereas the nondescriptive "Midrange" is of use to absolutely no one. I'm still waiting for the day when Death and Taxes gets referred to as White Weenies.

Anyway, unless you want to go the SCG route with something bland and shit like just "Storm", I don't see "ANT" going anywhere. It just makes for too good of a colloquial acronym.

Copy of my quick tournament report for you here:

3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Past in Flames
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
SB: 1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers

7-0 in matches tonight with this deck. It's cross between Jona and Nevilshutes decklists. Jona says preordains are better than ponder in this build and i think hes right.

R1- Omnitell, 2-1

SB: -2 TOA, -1 PIF, -1 SDT, +1 AdN, +2 Extirpate, +1 CoV

(CoV since he had leylines)



R2- Reanimator, 2-1
SB: -2 TOA, -1 PIF, -1 SDT, +1 AdN, +2 Extirpate, +1 CoV

(CoV for Iona, not sure if worth siding in, help?)



R3- Elves, 2-1

SB: -2 TOA, -1 PIF, +1 AdN, +2 CoV

R4- Jund, 2-0
SB: -2 TOA, +1 AdN, +1 CoV

R5- Shardless BUG, 2-1
SB: -2 TOA, -1 PIF, -2 CR +1 AdN, +2 CoV +2 CoF

(not sure about this boarding, help?)



R6- Twleve Post, 2-0

SB: -2 LED, -1 IT, -1 Grim -2 CR, +2 Extirpate, +2 CoV, +2 CoF

(turns out he had lots of sphere effects, I dodged them in match but i should have sided in the 6 green removal spells here)


R7- Jund, 2-1

SB: -2 TOA, +1 AdN, +1 CoV



Ironically i ended up siding in Ad Nauseam in almost every match this tournament. However, not having Ad Nauseam in G1 was still fine because past in flames is super-powered in game 1 without sideboard hate. I was happy with how the deck preformed, even in my meta which has very little miracles or delver. 



sideboard recap:



SB: 1 Ad Nauseam (allstar in my combo/jund meta i guess)
SB: 2 Extirpate (Not too confident with this card yet, seems okay, I’d cut it for Xantid but then i would have nothing to side in for the storm mirror)
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers


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Originally Posted by BrettF

R1- Omnitell, 2-1

SB: -2 TOA, -1 PIF, -1 SDT, +1 AdN, +2 Extirpate, +1 CoV

(CoV since he had leylines)



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Mostly agree with this, but maybe boarding out Grim instead of Past in Flames is correct.

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Originally Posted by BrettF

R2- Reanimator, 2-1
SB: -2 TOA, -1 PIF, -1 SDT, +1 AdN, +2 Extirpate, +1 CoV

(CoV for Iona, not sure if worth siding in, help?)

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I actually prefer to keep the second Past in Flames rather than Ad Nauseam against Reanimator. They have lots of disruption but no graveyard hate most of the time. Also makes Grim less bad. Don't really like Chain for Iona, but Top isn't great either. Maybe you should just keep the second Tendrils.

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Originally Posted by BrettF

R5- Shardless BUG, 2-1
SB: -2 TOA, -1 PIF, -2 CR +1 AdN, +2 CoV +2 CoF

(not sure about this boarding, help?)

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The general idea is correct, but Decay is better than Chain and Cabal Ritual is better than Carpet.

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Originally Posted by BrettF



R6- Twleve Post, 2-0

SB: -2 LED, -1 IT, -1 Grim -2 CR, +2 Extirpate, +2 CoV, +2 CoF

(turns out he had lots of sphere effects, I dodged them in match but i should have sided in the 6 green removal spells here)


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This is not the kind of matchup where you want to board out your explosive spells, but rather the kind where you want Ad Nauseam. I don't know how many Wastelands they usually play, Chain vs. discard vs. green removal depends on that.

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Originally Posted by BrettF

R7- Jund, 2-1

SB: -2 TOA, +1 AdN, +1 CoV


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I think it's better to keep to Tendrils than two Past in Flames because they have discard plus Deathrite, and you don't want to lose to getting your Tendrils exiled. You can also board out a discard spell for the second Chain.

@Jona

The 12 post deck was of the UG variety, no wastes: http://mtgpulse.com/event/21413#302717

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Originally Posted by L10

I actually agree with you, Slosh. I don't think our statements are opposites. But I think Legacy deck names are abysmal because a) it does tell you anything upfront (Maverick? Spanish Inquisition?) or b) too generic (Xyz Delver). I'd rather keep the deck name ANT, even if PiFT is probably more accurate. CRS is not as accurate because it can be also mistaken for other storm decks, like SI.

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Ah, I think the naming conventions have just become uninspiring, I'd rather go back to the period where we named all of the combo decks after breakfast cereals.

Caleb Scherer is doing some serious work with dark petition, this time with a 1 top, 1 preordain, 2 Dark Petition, 1 ToA, 1 PiF, 1 AN. He also tends to lean on disfigure over dread and massacre. With 2 recalls and a rebuild MUD looks like a bye.

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Originally Posted by Alix444

Caleb Scherer is doing some serious work with dark petition, this time with a 1 top, 1 preordain, 2 Dark Petition, 1 ToA, 1 PiF, 1 AN. He also tends to lean on disfigure over dread and massacre. With 2 recalls and a rebuild MUD looks like a bye.

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the guy is incredible, just always there... he seems to play similar setup for some time (an awkward one imo) , I dunno about expecting MUd and ignoring D+T, I'd guess recalls are more for Lands

Lately I have been playing 2 echoing instead of chain of vapour to beat loam with tegg and chalice and also 2 hurkil. Just to beat lands and mud. Metagame is shifting like every event is some of this deck there, so I like to be prepared.

Anyone like puzzles? This took me way longer than it should have to figure out the win. Decklist is 0xAdn 2xToA 1xEtW 2xPiF. You just played underground sea for the turn.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COUl0oQU8AAGMfo.jpg:large

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Originally Posted by BrettF

Anyone like puzzles? This took me way longer than it should have to figure out the win. Decklist is 0xAdn 2xToA 1xEtW 2xPiF. You just played underground sea for the turn.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COUl0oQU8AAGMfo.jpg:large

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Are they at 20? I can only seem to deal 18.

Nope nevermind.

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Originally Posted by BrettF

Anyone like puzzles? This took me way longer than it should have to figure out the win. Decklist is 0xAdn 2xToA 1xEtW 2xPiF. You just played underground sea for the turn.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COUl0oQU8AAGMfo.jpg:large

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Knowing there is a solution makes it somewhat simple as there really aren't many roads to consider. In a real life situation under pressure I wouldn't be surprised if many people would miss it. Giving the player a landdrop for the turn actually makes the puzzle more interesting since you need the trop in the yard to give the CRit thresh at flashback (you can only do 18 no matter if you go IT->IT or just IT->LED in that line since you can't cast duress after IT->IT).

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Originally Posted by BrettF

Anyone like puzzles? This took me way longer than it should have to figure out the win. Decklist is 0xAdn 2xToA 1xEtW 2xPiF. You just played underground sea for the turn.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COUl0oQU8AAGMfo.jpg:large

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LED, IT (CRit), CRit (w/ Thresh), Flashback PiF, Flashback CRit (w/ Thresh), Flashback IT (LED), LED, Duress, Tendrils

The only way I can see to get to 20 is to Flashback IT for a Probe... then rip a Petal, LED, or another Probe (into one of those) off the top.

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Originally Posted by haganbmj

LED, IT (CRit), CRit (w/ Thresh), Flashback PiF, Flashback CRit (w/ Thresh), Flashback IT (LED), LED, Duress, Tendrils

The only way I can see to get to 20 is to Flashback IT for a Probe... then rip a Petal, LED, or another Probe (into one of those) off the top.

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You IT for another IT to grab LED, that get you 5 mana for Duress and ToA, 10 Storm:

LED (4)
IT (5)
C. Rit (8)
PiF (3)
C. Rit (6)
IT (4)
IT (2)
LED (5)
Duress (4)
ToA (0)