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If your meta is heavily saturated with U, be it Delver, Midrange (Blade), Miracles or combo (ANT, Tin Fins, Reanimator), this guy could be worth maindecking. Until then he is DEFINITELY jumping into the E Tutor SB plan.
So Sweet. For once, Wizards does it right.
the thing is our deck is already good at fighting decks running can trips. thalia makes cantrips inefficient. brainstorming/pondering for 2 mana is never something any deck wants to do. Theoretically we shut cantrips down anyway is all im saying. But as a side board card, this card does have a lot of merit. Omnitell effectively cannot win with this on the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
Elves! This kills the Elves quite smartly my lad!Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
wow... completely didn't even recognize it's good against elves...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Pretty sure this card is not just good, but very good. Even if Thalia is usually better, having access to more than 4 cantrip-hosers seems great, especially since this deck has zero library manipulation. You can't always just draw a Thalia.
Shutting down visionary symbiote engine and glimpse leaves them basically NO or bust. Especially since they can't remove it game 1 and almost can't remove it game 2 (typically 2-3 abrupt at most) this leaves them to strip it from your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
It can also stop Griselbrand from going nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
The MD is probably too tight to fit it in, but it certainly deserves a place in the 75. It's just too good against the dominant card of the format. Vialing it in with Brainstorm/Jacestorm on the stack is a major blowout since it can generate up to 2/3 cards of pure CA.
This is not true, the main plane of OmniTell against Thalia decks and Hatebears in general is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; i Show and Tell, you drop this spirit, i drop Omniscience --> Cunning Wish --> Eladamri's Call --> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; as a OmniTell player i had already in sideboard 2x of Pongify/Rapid Hybridization; i'll think about a 3x with this guy out, cause it is annoying indeed, it stops cantrips better than Thalia.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
Especially since they still will have to put the cards back on top. Ouch. This card seems good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Yep, especially to vial this in, in response to a Brainstorm. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
That's like Notion Thief, but one you can easily cast if you want to.
Finally something playable!
I just can't wait to Vial her in vs an opponent casting Brainstorm, hehe.
That spirit looks very good, looking at the current meta IMO could worth a MD spot, while not as a 4x like our legendary lady...
Combos (S&T, storm and elves) MU are very favorable now and delver decks have another creature to answer.
- L
I'm liking both Brimaz and Spirit. I feel like this deck just got an extra push. Obviously, testing will tell, but I'm liking what I'm seeing as of yet.
I like how combining Grafdigger's Cage with SoL leaves Elves pretty much helpless unless they naturally draw into removal or a Hoof.
Mirran Crusader > Brimalz imo. Protection from 2 decently relevant colors, plus he hits pretty damn hard, especially when you are on the equipment plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Also dies to punishing fire and lightning bolt, unlike MufasaQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Later in the game, Mufasa also dies to PFire (though it takes 5 mana and a grove which isn't always possible). I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think he is bad. I just feel like as a 3 mana beat stick, crusader seems better. Walking right past a goyf without any help seems good. I could be wrong. Being Karakas-able (making up words is fun) might tip this guy over the edge here in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Also you forgot a period, therefore your post is invalid ;)
Falls under laziness. Read the disclaimer!Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
In all seriousness, though, I think we're approaching a paradigm shift in D&T, with the road splitting between Creature Control and Disruptive Aggro. This has already been foreshadowed by lists cutting Mangara completely, especially Mr. Kurpaska's list. Spirit of the Labyrinth and Mufasa are just going to further develop that divide. If I were to predict what they would look like, I would say:
4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
4 Spirit
4 Avenger
3 Brimaz/Crusader
A lower curve means we can go to 22 lands. Each creature serves a role, with Mufasa and Avenger serving as our killers. What do we lose? Primarily Flickerwisp, a long time boon of this deck. However, it is frail for its mana cost and not particularly insane when hardcast (though still good). Brimaz gives us a trump against Jund; Crusader against BGx/Goyfs.
4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Spirit
3 Flickerwisp
2 Avenger
2 Mangara of Corondor
We lose some beef without Crusader, Mufasa and having our fliers cut down. We gain some flexibility in our game one, and keep some of the killer finishing moves (especially Mangara of Corondor). This list is obviously blown out more by -1/-1 effects; I would have 2-3 Liege in the board to compensate.
The above lists assume this stock shell:
4 Waste
4 Port
3-4 Karakas
10-11 Plains
4 Vial
4 STP
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
1 Jitte
Thoughts, as always, are welcome.
Losing Flickerwisp seems meh. In a format that is as heavily dominated by TNN as it is right now, having more fliers seems pretty solid. Plus Flickerwisp is just SOOO useful. I'm a fan of the card.
I think the deck has enough room to accommodate both creatures. I'll be testing the spirit as a two of and brimaz as a one of probably cutting down one crusader and one flickerwisp/avengerQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I would run neither of your lists, BB, shaving Wisps like that. I would also NEVER run 4 Spirits, I dont see that happening. But I could be proved wrong.
4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Flickerwisp
3 Avenger
2 Spirit
2 Brimaz
You might be right about shaving a land though, as this creature base has up to 3 less 3-drops than I'm used to. That could give is the 4th Avenger (or third Spirit, I guess...), perhaps.
The new toys are great and all (and I look forward to playing with them) but I will be playing sanctioned Legacy with D&T before they come out and I have a question about the list I intend to play. So far I have the following:
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Spellskite
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Meekstone
1 Stony Silence
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wilt-Lead Leige
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
Local metagame concerns: Jund, Miracles, Stoneblade ... Mainly fair decks, very few glass cannons, Storm and Show and Tell underrepresented. A moderate amount of Shardless and Delver and the odd Affinity and Dredge.
The list is 59 cards. Unorthodox card choices are hedges against Punishing Fire (Spellskite) and Helm of Obedience and friends (Stony Silence, Seal of Cleansing), probably the two most popular strategies I've seen locally recently. What should my 60th maindeck card be, and are there any major problems my list might have that the top-placing and well-known lists don't? I'm currently considering additional copies of any creature I'm running less than 4 of, as well as Mangara, Mindcensor, Restoration Angel, and Preacher, but I can't convince myself compellingly that any particular call among these is correct.
I would add the 4th Flickerwisp. They are so flexible that outside being mana screwed they almost always do something useful. At least they swing for 3 in the air. I like your sideboard, but instead of Stony Silence I would consider Pithing Needle. It hits the same targets with the benefit of hitting Deathrite Shaman, Wirewood Symbiote, Sneak Attack, Planeswalkers and other random annoyances as well. Plus you already run 4 Revokers to shut down Helm, Top, EE...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
Also I would play -1 Horizon Canopy, +1 Plains, but that's more of a personal preference.
Anyone interested in testing Brimaz and SoL on cockatrice before the whole set is revealed, I uploaded a cards.xml with those two cards added. http://www.speedyshare.com/Sft8g/cards.xml (Be sure to click on the file name to download, not the green ad button.)
In my experience 3 is the correct number for Flickerwisps, despite its obvious applications w/o Vial and TNN's presence.
just my 3 Pence
60th should be Wisp, unless you want to do some cuts for 2 mangara. I also would cut the canopies for plains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
If Jund is a concern,run more than 1 liege in the board. It is a threat they have very few answers to.
And never run Preacher or Resto.
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Honestly i prefer a singleton Mangara than 4x wisp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
I agree perfectly on the plains topic: cut the canopies. And never ever run Resto; while the Preacher is really cute it is way too fragile.
- L
I've played a couple games vs various BUG decks, and I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised that it's not a horrible match-up. :)
don't be surprised, the mana base of most bug decks is horrible lol. Most tri-color decks are vulnerable to our mana denialQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Jund is the only one I'd be concerned about, and that's in part due to their removal packageQuote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
This has been doing well on Cockatrice:
2 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Serra Avenger
2 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Cataclysm
If you're planning on running such a light splash (ie for 4 Confidant, ZP out of the board) I would suggest going down to 3 Scrublands, cut the swamp, and add in more Cavern of Souls - the land is insane, and Confidant is a Human which meshes perfectly with Thalia + Mom. Avenger is a risky 4 of IMO, I'd cut the 4th and add a 3rd Flickerwisp, its just too good not to have access to every game. Not to mention Vial @ two means you don't even have to search out the Scrub most of the time if you don't actually need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
Otherwise, the addition of B seems to favour Brimaz; Persecution is huge with token generation, and you could swap Thoughtseize for Therapy and try that out (if you're confident with your Therapy naming, that is ;) )
Seems cool! let us (me) know how it tests.
@MrShine: Caverns and Vials can't cast Persecution and discard, though.
@akatsuki: Against what did you play? And unless you know that your opponent is a good player, I would take the Cockatrice testing with a grain of salt.
I just played 6 matches, I don't think the list is tuned by any means. The heavy color requirement of Zealous is actually annoying sometimes, so that's why the manabase is what it is. Brimaz+Therapy does sound interesting, but Brimaz just seems a bit underpowered. Maybe I'm wrong.
I just wanted to post this list because I think SotL is very, very good, and I think splashing black gives us an answer to TNN while also protecting us from Golgari Charm etc. Hopefully this will get other people thinking and maybe try some of my ideas and maybe we can make D&T 2.0
I know, and unfortunately its tough to run such a light splash in the end without opening up too much. It may be that 4 Scrub is fine; we have tons of wasteland targets in the deck anyway so they won't always find the scrubs. However, we can still hedge as much as possible by leaving fetches until they're actually needed (to cast Persecution) much in the same way Miracles or similar control decks wait to get the splash colour until they are about to use it right then and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Its debatable whether bringing in a bunch of Spells from the SB is effective when our main goal is still to stick Thalia and tax their mana with waste/port. I'm not even sure discard is better than hatebears most of the time, but it DOES work with Spirit to shut off their cantrips and thus their ability to just find what they once we've stripped it.
Where is tide hollow sculler at?
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
I'm not sure I agree with putting that many non-basics in D&T. Its strongest asset is not falling prey to a greedy manabase.
This is what I have been eyeing most, is a d&t 2.0. I think Sotl + Confidant is going to be amazing. Would love to find a nice package to make it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
This is the trend that even some Deadguy lists are taking: maintain their hand disruption + DC in an D&T shell (hatebears + vial + sfm). SotL will be a nice addiction i think. I want to test it so hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
- L
I've done the black splash for bob and sculler before, and honestly the strengths of the extra color don't make up for the weaknesses of having to run fetches and making more of ur lands wasteland targets. Mono white is strictly betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Looooooooo
I don't disagree, in the past I have tested different color splashes and you're right. For the most part adding multicolored bears doesn't boost the deck enough to validate the mana instability. The present difference worth noting is the degree to which the format is impacted by Zealous Persecution. Giving your opponents - TNN, Elves, Bobs/Strixes, Moms/Wisps, etc -1/-1 is similar to a 1-sided mass removal spell. It can blank an opposing Golgari Charm and provide a combat trick in creature stalemates.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
I think with the new cards coming on Born of the Gods it's likely the list gets shaken up a bit. I haven't tested akatsuki's configuration, but I see ZP as one of the more impactful cards to consider splashing in the current meta.