[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

@sedio:
You should play more Jace TMS. The card is nuts.
If you have Affinity in your area, play Powder Keg over Ratchet Bomb. In either case, if you're playing mono-blue with no splash, I would play 4.
I don't like Ancestral Vision. It's too slow. I prefer the draw engine of 4x Brainstorm (if you play fetchlands), 3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 2-3x Fact or Fiction. If you aren't playing fetchlands, I've had success with 4x Impulse, 3x Jace TMS, 2-3x Fact or Fiction. My friend still stands by Think Twice but I usually end up needing the Impulse to find a land because I never hit my fourth land (even with 24).
I would also run at least 23 lands, if not 24 or 25. MUC is mana hungry and needs to hit its first four, if not six, land drops.
I've never tested Capsize. For some reason, I feel Repeal would be better. Repeal helps with the early game, where this deck is weakest. Capsize plays really strong late game, where this deck is the most powerful.
Force Spike is situationally amazing. However, I've had entire tournaments where I just wanted to tear the card in half. I wouldn't recommend running it. Spell Snare is better in nearly all situations.
If aggro decks are popular in your area, I can see Propaganda being main deck; if they're not prevalent, I'd just put it in the sideboard. It's dead (or close to it) in too many match-ups for me. I think I cut it from my 75 altogether.
Those are my suggestions.

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[detract ON]
first of all I must ask you something I'm ashamed, because I play in a very closed grup, there are some things that we don't know, and of course makes us out of update in some cases, the thing is that we do not have very clear of the deck "names" that you use
For example...whats an Aggro and whats a ZOOand an Affinity??? we made decks to play but we name it.... WG...RED Control.. MUC Control, Merfolks, Slivers....an that.......could someone explain this in a few words and I will let you wich is my metagame????THX
[/detract OFF]

returning to MUC

Jace TMS never used a Planeswalker so I don not have much expirience in managing something like that...but I'm curious I will add it
I used to use Powder Keg, but searching for some news on cards I found the Rachet Bomb and I planed to test it....but I coudn't
I play Ancestral Vision because I think it could be almast free.....it works wel.....sometimes I think that is a little slow...so..I must change it for FoF...wich I havn't tested so much to really say that is slow too and not too much relieble..I will test it again
In the case of the bouncer....most of you say Repeal...why not Boomerang?? only for the draw engine???
The same thing occurs to me with Force Spike and Spell Snare...but inverse...I think that Spell Snare is better but sometimes I just put that card (Spell Snare) in my mouth and eat it because never could play it....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sedio

[detract ON]
first of all I must ask you something I'm ashamed, because I play in a very closed grup, there are some things that we don't know, and of course makes us out of update in some cases, the thing is that we do not have very clear of the deck "names" that you use
For example...whats an Aggro and whats a ZOOand an Affinity??? we made decks to play but we name it.... WG...RED Control.. MUC Control, Merfolks, Slivers....an that.......could someone explain this in a few words and I will let you wich is my metagame????THX
[/detract OFF]

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Aggro is any aggressive deck. Usually depicted as playing cheap creatures and swinging to try and kill you as fast as possible through combat damage and/or a mix of creatures and burn. Zoo is a good example of this, it's 3 color aggro (RGW) that plays cards like Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, knight of the reliquary, and backs them up with Lightning Bolts, Chain Lightnings, Lightning Helix, and sometimes Fireblasts. Affinity is an artifact based aggro deck that used to abuse the Affinity for Artifacts mechanic to cheat 2/2's and 4/4's onto the table for little to no mana, but lately has been playing less Affinity cards and more things like Master of Etherium, Steel Overseer, etc.... This could just be classified as Artifact Aggro. The reason, for instance, that Powder Keg is so good in this matchup is because it destroys artifacts but does not have the non-land clause of Ratchet Bomb. therefore, Powder Keg detonating with 0 counters will destroy the Affinity decks artifact lands as well as any Mox Opals, Ornithopters, or memnites they've played.

If you want to PM any deck descriptions to me I can try to attach the popular moniker's to them for you so you have a better idea of what people on the forums are describing. Best of luck in your meta.

On the topic of your Kill condition, I think that Morphling is still the top dog for our deck. There have been many times where I have to block an exalted gofy where if I had sphinx I could not do it. I really think the ability to play both offense and defense is what sets him a part. Sure he is more mana intensive, but he is still much more versatile and although the M10 rules did change him, he is still a pretty insane creature. Both offense and defense in one creature that can still protect himself. With all that he can do, imo he is much better than sphinx. My real concern is that I can't find a good draw suit for this deck. Visions is really SLOW and although jace is pretty insane, I personally don't think he fits our deck. Not running fetchlands makes him harder to use as a draw engine and he is pretty hard to protect. I have seen people run impulse, but it doesn't seem that strong to me and think twice just seems bad. What are your guys thoughts about running spell pierce in the main deck? I think it has a lot of potential to help us out.

first of all...my old deck:

4-Mutavault
2-Polluted Delta
2-Flooded Strand
14-Island


4-Force of Will
4-Counterspell
4-Rune Snag
4-Spell Snare
3-Propaganda
2-Capsize


3-Powder Keg
4-Ancestral vision
4-Accumulated Knowledge


3-Vedalken Shackles
2-Morphling
1-Meloku the Clouded Mirror


and this is senerdib's MUC deck:

23 island

2 morphling
1 rainbow efreet

3 impulse
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of will
4 Counterspell
3 spell snare

4 powder keg
4 vedalken shackles
4 back to basics
4 propaganda

side:
4 energy field
3 hibernation
3 chalice of the void
3 pithing needle
2 jace, the mind sculptor


based on senerdib's deck...wich could be the notorious changes for an AGGRO metagame???
a lot of you talk about quicksand, fechlands, wasteland, mutavault and maybe ports....what you think???

talking about counters..only 11??? what about Force Spike, Rune Snag (I really like this card), spell pierce, etc.??

...and drowing engine??? Jace TMS, brainstorm ..............................????

let's tweack senerdib's deck!!! :P (I hope he/she don't get mad)

First, I think MUC is positioned terribly in the current meta. There are far too many basics and swarming creature strategies running around for Back to Basics and one-for-one countermagic to handle. Second, Jace 2.0 is insane and I would never run less than 2-of in anything remotely resembling a blue-based control deck. Third, Morphling has been obsoleted by Sphinx of Jwar Isle. I was one of the biggest proponents of MUC back in 2007/08/09, and back when Doks, Kadaj, Jason, and I were actively playing this deck, we had a pretty indepth discussion re: win conditions; Morphling, Call the Skybreaker, Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Meloku, Teferi, Rainbow Efreet. You name, we tested it. The general consensus was that Meloku afforded you a flying, swarming avenue to victory whereas Sphinx was just the best flying, shroud, big beater we could run (with Call the Skybreaker actually being a close 2nd). I'd suggest all of you reading this thread from Oct. 2009 posts onward to get the gist of it.

And I honestly don't get why you're running ANY win condition out on a board where you're at a disadvantage at worst or locked in a stalemate at best. This is now the 2nd time I've seen a hypothetical situation where you allowed your opponent to resolve a gigantic monster and the only hope for survival is a Morphling. Ummm.... where are the rest of your cards? No Ratchet Bomb? No Jace 2.0 unsummon? No Vedalken Shackles? No Repeal? No Capsize? No Spell Snare for the Goyf? Nothing but a single card in your hand (Morphling) and a bunch of Islands in play? Really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

First, I think MUC is positioned terribly in the current meta. There are far too many basics and swarming creature strategies running around for Back to Basics and one-for-one countermagic to handle. Second, Jace 2.0 is insane and I would never run less than 2-of in anything remotely resembling a blue-based control deck. Third, Morphling has been obsoleted by Sphinx of Jwar Isle. I was one of the biggest proponents of MUC back in 2007/08/09, and back when Doks, Kadaj, Jason, and I were actively playing this deck, we had a pretty indepth discussion re: win conditions; Morphling, Call the Skybreaker, Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Meloku, Teferi, Rainbow Efreet. You name, we tested it. The general consensus was that Meloku afforded you a flying, swarming avenue to victory whereas Sphinx was just the best flying, shroud, big beater we could run (with Call the Skybreaker actually being a close 2nd). I'd suggest all of you reading this thread from Oct. 2009 posts onward to get the gist of it.

And I honestly don't get why you're running ANY win condition out on a board where you're at a disadvantage at worst or locked in a stalemate at best. This is now the 2nd time I've seen a hypothetical situation where you allowed your opponent to resolve a gigantic monster and the only hope for survival is a Morphling. Ummm.... where are the rest of your cards? No Ratchet Bomb? No Jace 2.0 unsummon? No Vedalken Shackles? No Repeal? No Capsize? No Spell Snare for the Goyf? Nothing but a single card in your hand (Morphling) and a bunch of Islands in play? Really?

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could you post which is the best decklist to you to run into an aggro metagame???

You can't honestly say that you will always have those cards at the right time. I mean really, you act like you always have those cards to help fight against gofy, knight, and even tombstalker. Those cards can be killed and will be killed. I am just saying that sphinx from my testing isn't as good as morphling imo. I would never play a creature in this deck that doesn't protect itself so Meloku just doesn't fit my play style. It also is not a hypothetical situation, it happens a lot that morphling will atleast give me enough time to find my answer or kill them while protecting my life total. But it doesn't really matter since you don't feel that this deck is good enough in the current meta, and that is fine where I think it has the tools to win.

I'm not suggesting you'll have every single one of those cards, but to act like you'll have NONE of them is just silly... which is what two people have suggested.

of course you will have one of those cards, but it is silly to simply think that they won't have a response or a counter to your shackles or keg effect. Like I said before, at least for me, the ability to play offense and defense is amazing and he allows me to stall enough to find another card to deal with a gofy or big monster. There are times where sphinx might be better but overall for me at least I find morphling to be better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

First, I think MUC is positioned terribly in the current meta. There are far too many basics and swarming creature strategies running around for Back to Basics and one-for-one countermagic to handle. Second, Jace 2.0 is insane and I would never run less than 2-of in anything remotely resembling a blue-based control deck. Third, Morphling has been obsoleted by Sphinx of Jwar Isle. I was one of the biggest proponents of MUC back in 2007/08/09, and back when Doks, Kadaj, Jason, and I were actively playing this deck, we had a pretty indepth discussion re: win conditions; Morphling, Call the Skybreaker, Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Meloku, Teferi, Rainbow Efreet. You name, we tested it. The general consensus was that Meloku afforded you a flying, swarming avenue to victory whereas Sphinx was just the best flying, shroud, big beater we could run (with Call the Skybreaker actually being a close 2nd). I'd suggest all of you reading this thread from Oct. 2009 posts onward to get the gist of it.

And I honestly don't get why you're running ANY win condition out on a board where you're at a disadvantage at worst or locked in a stalemate at best. This is now the 2nd time I've seen a hypothetical situation where you allowed your opponent to resolve a gigantic monster and the only hope for survival is a Morphling. Ummm.... where are the rest of your cards? No Ratchet Bomb? No Jace 2.0 unsummon? No Vedalken Shackles? No Repeal? No Capsize? No Spell Snare for the Goyf? Nothing but a single card in your hand (Morphling) and a bunch of Islands in play? Really?

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You probabely think to be the only one who tested different build of muc or creatures. But you are not.
I allways talk about what I test.
and for example, as for sphinxs/morphling: I remember taking muc the following day they printed sphyinxt to a 150 people turnament (running 1 morphling and 2 sphinxs + 4 StP and 3 vedalken shakles) and I remember that I never lost a game when morphling was online, while I lost a game because sphinxs couldn't block an opponent creature (because morphling give me more Options). I know it's a quiete stupid example. but I would have entered top8 without that stupid sphinxs vs that stupid opponent stalker...
I've never sad one is better than the other. I've sad it depends on the game situation.
I stop playing muc in turnaments about one year ago because the metagame was bad. and I'm not testing it back. guess what ? I think it could be extrememly good in the metagame. guess why ? because I test. (you probabely talk)
Muc has always been the control decks which beats other blue control decks. Don't you see heaps of jace / elspeth / counterbalance around ? 4 colours deck ?
as for jace: I own a playset but I personally don't see how to fit it in my deck. In fact I'm running 3 of them in my side so that keepeng testing (with sideboard tests too) I hope to find the slot for them maindeck. (I don't like the too random configuration 2BtB 2FoF 2Jace2.0)
Last turnament (with my previous page build with 3 ponder 3 impulse 3 FoF) I made 4-2-1 drawing vs enchantress and loosing 2-0 vs Ur merfolks and loosing 2-1 vs pro-bant (I realy missplayed) and winning vs ichoride, 1 vial deck (maverick ?) 2 control decks. I didn't espect to have good results but I wanted to test the deck in a competitive turnament. to prepare myself for the next turnaments (one 80 perople and one about 300pl). I believe muc is competitive now. It is strong vs tier1 decks. much better if you run peacekeeper sideboard and splash for engineered explosives which are much better than powder keg/r.bomb (STP is an option).
is somebody testing vs competitive decks or just making literature ?

could you continue the thread please??? dont´fight for something that you know that is dificult to prove...

I want to lear as much as posible about MUC...not to know who both of you have tested much more and have the reason...
Thanks...
Claudio

First, I have said numerous times that myself + others (Kadaj, Jason, Doks, Tao, IBA, etc) in this thread were testing various win conditions; I don't understand where you got that I think I'm the only one.

Second, your scenario doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why couldn't your Sphinx block your opponent's attacking Tombstalker? Also, why was your opponent not blocking your attacking Morphling with his Tombstalker? Due to M10 combat rules, it isn't like your Morphling would be able to kill Tombstalker with stacked combat damage, then be able to pump his toughness to safe levels.

Third, anytime that Goblins (and by extension, any dedicated Aether Vial deck) is a major player in the meta, MUC will struggle. Currently, Goblins and Merfolk are placing well in large fields and newer Vial strategies are cropping up as well (Junk & Taxes, etc). This does not bode well for MUC when commonly played decks can invalidate MUC's countermagic with Aether Vial, run a lot of basic lands to avoid Back to Basics, and play creatures at varied mana costs, reducing the effectiveness of MUC's main "sweeper" Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg.

Personally, I don't think any traditional control deck is positioned very well right now. MUC has changed very, very little in the last 3 years, while the metagame has seen major shifts and entirely new decktypes becoming competitive. If your meta is nothing but slow strategies with greedy manabases, then more power to you, but in a developed meta, MUC is not a factor.

Unless goblins has REB in the board I don't think it is very hard. Actually I think the match up is pretty easy since propaganda is very good vs them. What I think he means with the tombstalker is that morphling can block him and survive and try to stall him out where sphinx could not. If you don't think this deck is viable I don't see why you care to post in this thread. Sedio is right in the fact that we are arguing way to much and this is not helping the thread.

ok. Let's talk about muc and how to build a muc:
first of all, a control deckbuild starts analyzing the metagame. what's around:
a) vial decks + aggro (merfolk, goblins, GW aggro, zoo, ichoride)
b) control decks (example 4colour counterbalance)
c) casual combo evading counterbalance lock (show & tell + order/sneek attack)
d) aggro control wihout balance (e.g. aggro bant)

how can I control:
a) vial and aggro decks ? NOT controlling the stack (my dear arsenal) BUT controlling the board: propaganda + shakles (+ b2b) stp and peacekeeper (merfolks & ichoride). is goblin a poor match up ? I don't think so. running peacekeeper merfolk is even easier.
b) control decks (mostly the so-called "supreme blue" http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy UWGR counterbalance )is probabely the deck I would allways like to face. They have mostly notting against a back to basics when they are tapped out. yes they run 1/2 basic islands... but they do not have basic forest. and most important: they do not have anything to face a morphling/sphinx which eat theys planeswalker.
almost every control opponent is a good mu. the reason is that our opponent has much more dead cards than we do (STP and firespout for example), we have got more counters and we draw much more. also jace landeed or UWx landstill are good match up.
c) 11 counters + hard drawing + 3 vendilion + 3 jace + 3 back to basics + 3 peacekeeper is good fun for us.
d) aggro control deck without balance are the most difficult to face . As for bant, I usually try to "race" them. I know it sounds strange, but I counter, sword, e.e., shakles a creature... and try to find a 4 turn clock creature to finish him off. I think aggro control is like a 50% match up.

I'm not saying muc can be a tier deck. I'm saying that muc can study all tiers decks and beat them.
Playing muc is quite hard in a turnament because you can't misplay.
BUT we know opponents' decks. opponents's don't know what we are playing. And we chose how to build the deck according to the metagame. that's why muc is never a bad choice... muc has not a "fix" list, all muc decks are different from each other. the skill of the builder and player (if it's good) allows you to make it competitive in turnament.

as for myself, I'm testing this build and a variant B:

22 lands (12 island 1 scrubland 1 plains 1 swamp 4 flooded 2 polluted 1 marsh flats)

1 morphilng
1 sfinge dell'isola jwar
3 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 fact or fiction (FoF)

4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 spell snare

3 swords to plowshares (StP)
3 engineered explosives
3 vedalken shakles
3 back to basics (BtB)

sideboard:
1 dismantling blow
1 swords to plowshares
1 diabolic edict / hibernation
1 extirpate
3 jace, the mind sculptor
3 peacekeeper (THE solution vs merfolks and show and tell)
3 propaganda
2 relic

and variant B:
+ 3 jace TMS maindeck
+ 1StP maindeck
- 1 FoF
- 2 wish
- 1 BtB/shakles
but so far my tests make me like the wish list better.

@ Arsenal: I'm very sorry. I can repeat to you. morphling can block stalker, swing and stap. sphinx block and both die (also with morphling you can do this). (remember WE are the control player, not the tombstalker controler)
So: Morphling gives you more OpTiOnS. his only problem is the amount of mana you have. I run both because if I have mana I prefere morphling, If I don't I prefere sphinxs. Afraid of mana? play sphinxs. not afraid of mana? play morphling. not afraid of StP ? play Oona or Guile. want to play a huge one? Isleback Spawn/Call the Skybreaker.
I agree: powder keg and rachet bomb are really slow cards. I would play engineered explosives.
Peace and love.

stop talking about cards: talk about lists ! (possibily with some tests)

so...taking a look at what you are testing I assume that you meta is Vial and Aggro...¿?
and about the MUC...I assume that there is no variant in blue to make it MONO blue......¿?
I will test it really hard...because I want to play one that runs well....I thint like to much the splashes....but....I must learn to live with..jaj

I am pretty sure in your list shackles really is not that great. with only 12 island, if you open with one of your white sources or black source it can cost you the game. That marsh flat seems pretty bad as well. opening with it in your hand and not being able to get a blue source seems terrible. The big problem I have with splashing another color in to this, is that if you open with one of your basics or the marsh flat, then there is a chance that you will not have double blue for your counterspell and making your shackles weaker. I am pretty sure in your list you want jace main deck since you run some shuffle effects. I know you said that you are testing this list as I am just giving you my view on your list. of course there are a lot of things I do like, like having brainstorm and e.e. I would also run 4 stp as I feel that this is way to good not to run. Let me know how your testing goes.

@ Serendib

I'd suggest running 24-26 lands. You really, really want to hit your first 4-6 land drops without fail, and running 22 (15 of which produce actual mana) can be sketchy. Yes, you're also running Brainstorm + fetchland, but one of the nicer things MUC had going for it was that it was 100% safe from Wasteland/Stifle packages. Also, casting Brainstorm to try to dig for that 4th/5th land seems suboptimal.

Other decks can get away with running 20-22 land because (a.) their deck's curve is generally lower than MUC and (b.) they rely on tempo whereas MUC does not.

If you're willing to run StP, EE, Peacekeeper, etc, why are you just not running UWx Landstill? White offers far superior board control permanents in Humility and Moat, offers an actual sweeper in Wrath of God/Day of Judgment, and offers Elspeth and Decree of Justice as win conditions. Keep in mind, that virtually everything blue MUC runs, Landstill is able to run as well if it wants (Sower, Shackles, Jace 2.0, Fact or Fiction, etc).

To me, MUC is just that, Mono Blue Control. MUC can tout Back to Basics and 100% safety from Wasteland/Stifle packages as the main selling points, which Landstill generally cannot (although UW Landstill is able to run Back to Basics out of the SB if necessary and operate just fine most games). The moment you start messing with those advantages, you start losing deck identity.

I have to agree with Arsenal here. I think you are actually hurting this deck by not going either MUC or just landstill. As I stated before I think your mana base is pretty bad, and that is one of the strongest things about MUC. By going the route that you have right now, you are losing such powerful cards in humility and elspeth.

lately I been finding that having 4 fof is to many. It doesn't help our curve and if you open with 2 in your hand it is pretty bad. I think I am going to go back to AV since it is not mana intensive and can be played early( but the card is very slow) and can be protected pretty easily. I Think I am going to try repeal since it can be played early and allows us to get to the late game so we can control the game. What do you guys think about repeal and going down to only 2 fof? I think the repeal can really help us out in the early game.

Yes, the main problem is the few land count. When I open a 4 land hand the deck goes extremely good. when I open just 2 I start having troubles if I don't see other 2 in ther next 2 turns.

I think I'll go back to 23 lands as I used to play some time ago and I was allways happy about the manabase. (Even If I have no more the third colour for e.e.)

13 islands
2 plains
1 tundra
4 flooded
3 polluted

maximum 24 (+1 island ) but defenetly not 25 because I would risk to loose to 3 lands drawed in a row

As for the choice of playing muc with splash. Well, Landstill is a completely different deck to my view. I like having wasteland-proof manabase (and landstill does not, because every wastaland he does or opponent does, it slows down). Secondly, I don't like standstill because there are some match up where you side you draw engine out (e.g. some vial decks). third reason: I like playing control decks who beats every other control decks.
last reason: I love back to basics and fof.
(I play UWb landstill too)

personally, I have troblue playing without at least 3 FoF. digging for 5 cards is the best control engine.
I allways run 4 for a reason: When I don't see/resolve fof, I loose. I prefere having one in opening hand to pitch to FoW.
(If you notice, daze are every day less popular)

the problem is to set a correct cc curve to fit them in. I usually use 7/60 heavy drops (cc4+)

a 8 cc4+ drops is really extreme but it's the only way to have both fof and jace. I don't know if it would be better but I'll try it in the next days.

2 sphynx/morphling
3 jace
3 FoF
4 brainstorm

4 swords to plowshares
3 e.e.
3 vedalken shakles
3 back to basics
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 spell snare

with 24 lands ( 2 plains 1 tundra 4 flooded 3 polluted 14 island )
(if it's ok 23, the 60th card would be sensei's divining top)

in the side:
3/4 propaganda
3 peacekeeper
x vendilion clique
x spell pierce
x relic
x meddling mage

I've always been a lover of Mono blue without splash. But I'm quite annoyed to loose to merfolks, and to bad topdecks (powder keg is some times terrible). I think that even if we add e.e. and peacekeeper + XStP we are still playing muc.
other cards I think are too late nowadays are AVision. terrible topdeck.
while repeal is allyays a good card... but few time you are gonna pay less then 2U. so maybe criptic command is just better and more powerfull.

I'm playing several decks (and considered much more competitive than muc). But I believe this deck can come to something really good.
I would apreciate is somebody wants to test the deck too so to "cross" tests and practical opinions.