Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Hi The Source!
I've been reading this thread "from the outside" for quite a while now but finally decided to dig in.
As an old stax-player I've totally changed direction and decided to play AnT instad. It's been a couple of months now and I gotta say that I like the LED-less list better. Does anyone else play without it? 95% of the AnT-decks on deckcheck seems to play LED.
My list:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Angel's Grace
4 Ponder
4 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Any thought about the list? I like playing pacts and it's the reason I stopped playing LED. How do you manage without it? :p
//Chris
Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Van Phanel
You can also take mana in the same turn you play it.
Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
You can also take mana in the same turn you play it.
Good catch! Wow... that makes Carpet of Flowers sooooo good.
Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
katakis
Good catch! Wow... that makes Carpet of Flowers sooooo good.
Yea no kidding. A green ritual. Awesome.
Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Yep. They'll reword it again when they see the bug. New wording will be:
"At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with Carpet of Flowers this turn and haven't played Carpet of Flowers this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls. "
Now it's clearly overpowered. As they said, that wording was not working as intended, and now isn't working as intended too.
Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johanessen
Now [carpet of flowers is] clearly overpowered. As they said, that wording was not working as intended, and now isn't working as intended too.
While I expect them to change it as you describe to match the original function of the card, it really doesn't seem like it's all that OP for it to produce mana on the same turn.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I agree, it's awsome but i wouldn't call it overpowered. Don't forget it's a sideboard card after all.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
By the way, I'm not sure whether ppl have already dealt with the discussion, but I'd like to know whether you can change the configuration of the disruption of DDANT.
From what I saw, DDANt plays 4 Chant, 2 Silence and 1 Grip. Would it be possible to switch 2 Silences and the Grip for 3 Duress? It gives you some outs against Chalices and Counterbalances without weakening your maindeck manabase (the Tropical Island can be moved to the Sb then).
I also feel like 6 Chant-effects are redundant like hell and they make the Chromes offcolor.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
By the way, I'm not sure whether ppl have already dealt with the discussion, but I'd like to know whether you can change the configuration of the disruption of DDANT.
From what I saw, DDANt plays 4 Chant, 2 Silence and 1 Grip. Would it be possible to switch 2 Silences and the Grip for 3 Duress? It gives you some outs against Chalices and Counterbalances without weakening your maindeck manabase (the Tropical Island can be moved to the Sb then).
I also feel like 6 Chant-effects are redundant like hell and they make the Chromes offcolor.
I feel that 6 chants are useless too, frankly. Often they stuck in the initial hand as 2-ofs and they slow down the deck a lot, and against non-blue I'd rather have Duress which can grab a Burn spell or a discard then delay a turn my opponent, a thing that most of the time won't do the job properly because you won't go off the turn after, resulting in a semi-useless, partial delay. I'm currently trying 4 Chant and 2 Duresses in DDANT and it's surely better, even if not enough to stop Counterbalance. I also cut the maindeck Krosan Grip, too situational to be useful when you need it (against CB and Trinispheres, Chalices) also considering that tha cards that could grab it are the ones that suffer most the cards you mentioned. The only thing I don't like about Duresses is that since combo has so much risen these days, playing a Duress off USea the first turn is a clear word of what you're playing (but I guess this also applies to someone playing blue fetchlands and taking time with cantrips doing nothing til the 3rd turn or so.)
I'd suggest you to try that configuration, too; you can add the third Duress, or just accelerating the deck with a 3rd Cabal Ritual (not recommended) or a Ponder (it's better).
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
I feel that 6 chants are useless too, frankly. Often they stuck in the initial hand as 2-ofs and they slow down the deck a lot, and against non-blue I'd rather have Duress which can grab a Burn spell or a discard then delay a turn my opponent, a thing that most of the time won't do the job properly because you won't go off the turn after, resulting in a semi-useless, partial delay. I'm currently trying 4 Chant and 2 Duresses in DDANT and it's surely better, even if not enough to stop Counterbalance. I also cut the maindeck Krosan Grip, too situational to be useful when you need it (against CB and Trinispheres, Chalices) also considering that tha cards that could grab it are the ones that suffer most the cards you mentioned. The only thing I don't like about Duresses is that since combo has so much risen these days, playing a Duress off USea the first turn is a clear word of what you're playing (but I guess this also applies to someone playing blue fetchlands and taking time with cantrips doing nothing til the 3rd turn or so.)
I'd suggest you to try that configuration, too; you can add the third Duress, or just accelerating the deck with a 3rd Cabal Ritual (not recommended) or a Ponder (it's better).
That was EXACTLY my train of thought. I'm currently running a 3rd Ponder instead of the Grip as well (love that card) but my idea was to switch that Ponder (which was initially a Grip) together with 2 Silences for Duresses. 4 Chant 3 Duress seem to be solid and 3 Duress are okay to stop Balance.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I think it`s pretty mandatory to have a bouncer maindecked, there are too much decks with counterbalances, trinispheres, gaddock teegs, even chalices though we can still win through them. Not sure to play Wipe Away against Krosan, but it`s also an option.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johanessen
I think it`s pretty mandatory to have a bouncer maindecked, there are too much decks with counterbalances, trinispheres, gaddock teegs, even chalices though we can still win through them. Not sure to play Wipe Away against Krosan, but it`s also an option.
I agree. I cut the MB KGrip for a third Ponder last tourney and I regretted doing so very much. But then again I played vs CB Bant and then Faerie Stompie right after. I haven't really seen Teeg around, but if Bant Survival becomes more popular, that Grip might turn into a Wipe Away.
Chant redundancy has been great for me. It really puts the pressure on U-based decks, but I will admit that it's pretty ass after CB/Top assembles. Maybe the change from Silence/Grip to Duress might be the perfect middle solution. Don't forget though that Chant-walking aggro is pretty effective for setting up with Mystical and the likes.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
I feel that 6 chants are useless too, frankly. Often they stuck in the initial hand as 2-ofs and they slow down the deck a lot, and against non-blue I'd rather have Duress ...
I'd rather have Duress even against blue.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rico Suave
I'd rather have Duress even against blue.
If you cast it the turn before going off they can have a Brainstorm and hide the counter(s) on top. If they have a Top in play, it just gets ugly. Against multiple counters it's bad, Stifle, Spell Snare, Mindbreak Trap + other stuff, burn if you go DD or even Ad Nauseam, doesn't help you IGG looping.
Duress is effective sometimes, but sometimes it just plain sucks ass. I'm testing 3 Duress, 4 Chants and 1 Silence and it has been going well.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
If you cast it the turn before going off they can have a Brainstorm and hide the counter(s) on top. If they have a Top in play, it just gets ugly. Against multiple counters it's bad, Stifle, Spell Snare, Mindbreak Trap + other stuff, burn if you go DD or even Ad Nauseam, doesn't help you IGG looping.
Duress is effective sometimes, but sometimes it just plain sucks ass. I'm testing 3 Duress, 4 Chants and 1 Silence and it has been going well.
Yes, that is possible.
It's also possible that Duress will wreck them by taking their CB, give vital information to set up your development, and clear the way on the combo turn.
The best approach though is as you mentioned; run a split of both.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Okay, the reason why I'd like to play Duress:
In my metagame, there's juts a few Counterbalance. Only 2-3 Dreadstill running around, that's all. BUT there are some Chalice-Aggros and Aggroloams. These decks are very dependant on keeping a Chalice or a 3Sphere against you, if you just duress it away they usually cry and watch how you rape them 2 turns afterwards.
I have experienced that I've always lost against Counterbalance as it was very hard to tutor up the Grip and then win against the remaining counters they keep in hand. I have also no possibility to deal with 2 Counterbalances in any case. That's why I'd just accept my loss and just shift the hate to the SB to be more consistent.
The Chant effects are okay because they also back you up against Burnspells, but Duress is cool because it can also slow your opponent down (stealing a Aether Vial against Merfolk for example). Sure, Silence can act as a Timewalk, but I'm not really convinced by that.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I play 3 Duress, 2 Silence, 3 Orim's Chant, 1 Wipe Away.
That's 9 disruption slots, I have a control-heavy meta.
I agree with all reasons to play duress stated above. I also believe that you should adjust this to your liking depending on your own meta, so I if you have good reasons to play 8 chant effects instead, then do that.
I would never leave home without a bounce in main deck though! It could just as well be chain of vapor really, since a Counterbalance pre-board is usually a lose anyway. But I like believing that someday the split second will have an impact. But seriously, storm-hate is finding a lot of slots of peoples maindecks right now. Bant play meddling mage main, and in tournaments I play, zoo players have stuffed 4 (four!) Gaddock Teeg in maindeck.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Henrik
I would never leave home without a bounce in main deck though! It could just as well be chain of vapor really, since a Counterbalance pre-board is usually a lose anyway.
I don't recommend chain of vapor maindeck because it's no good against chalice. The singleton wipe away in my list I hope will be able to save me (or at least give me a chance to beat) from CB and chalice in game 1 should they have it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aginor
Any thought about the list? I like playing pacts and it's the reason I stopped playing LED. How do you manage without it? :p
Firstly I do think LED is really an essential card in ANT, and gives a massive boost to speed. If you're removing it I would want to replace it with more mana accelaration and not disruption.
But looking at your list my biggest concern is the lack of tutors. I wouldn't run less than 7-8 tutors in ANT simply because if you use a mystical to fetch Ad-Nauseum you're probably going to need another to fetch Tendrils. I think with your list you're going to run into trouble going off, do you find this in playtesting?
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Just tested for like 2 hours against CB Bant (or Supreme Blue or whatever it's called) using 3x Duress over 2x Silence/1x Grip MD.
It's marginally helpful, and I can honestly say that there were some games where a Grip would have kept me in the game and some games where having the Duress was crucial for stopping that early CB. Overall though, the inclusion of Duress has more positives than negatives. I really miss having the hand information, and stealing CB and/or Top is golden. Another thing about MD Grip is that A) it sucks off Ad Nauseum and B) you usually have to give up a Mystical for it. That means slowing yourself down A LOT and possibly giving them enough time to come back with Rhox War Monk.
Post board games were awesome with the new Carpet rule changes. I bring in 11 cards vs them and I absolutely love how g2 and g3 play now with the Swarm/Carpet split.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I recently made the same changes to my deck as Yesmilord and i must say i really like it. Having a black mana disruption spell is sometimes very usefull, for instance when you want to play 2 disruption spells in the same turn. It's easier to get one black and one white mana then 2 white becouse you'll need the black mana anyway to combo that turn.The only downside is that when you dont play grip or wipe away you have no answers to a maindeck teeg or ethersworn cannonist. But like Yesmilord said I also think the positives outweigh the negatives.
