I'm not in the Northeast so won't be able to make the GP Providence. Besides, I still don't have a playset of Forces (though if I do get them it'll take a lot to get used to the severe loss of cards).
Printable View
I'm not in the Northeast so won't be able to make the GP Providence. Besides, I still don't have a playset of Forces (though if I do get them it'll take a lot to get used to the severe loss of cards).
Hello all,
I have been toying around a little bit with different builds and came across something that fits my playstyle good.
I got some insperation from Spiral Tide/Spring Tide in the way they use Merchant Scroll. Merchant Scroll is really powerfull and can fetch everything.
I tried translating that into Solidarity and the only way to do that is to use Cunning Wish alot more and I made this build:
// Lands
12 [B] Island (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Spells
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [FE] High Tide (3)
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [IN] Opt
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
3 [LG] Reset
4 [IA] Brainstorm
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (3)
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DIS] Vision Skeins
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] Reset
As you can see I have included four Cunning Wish main to have that toolbox effect I really like. To support that I have also included Meditate, High Tide, Reset and Turnabout as one ofs in the sideboard.
Other noticable differences from other builds are that I am including four Opt and four Peer Through Depths (dig= buisiness= opportunities). I have also cut down Flash of Insight to one, I really like the power of this card that is why I keep it.
As you can see, the sideboard is not completed. There are only thirteen cards and that leaves for two slots. But I am a little insecure of the cards besides from the toolbox cards.
There are some other concerns with this build. Facing Counterbalance is very very very hard. Compared to Seraphus's build, I don't have any main deck Counterbalance hate in form of Repeal or Cryptic Command. I think this is something you have to weight in and what favours everything gives you. By including theese cards you loose some focus on speed and continuity on the combo. In my build it will replace the Peer Through Depths if included, but I don't really like it since Peer Through Depths is quite good. I think Silent Reqeuim has touched this topic before of the different paths of the deck (focus on speed and continuity or focus on protection).
I really like this build, it fits my playstyle alot. I have no tournament experience with this build, I have only been testing it in solo mode and against decks to beat. I am currently into analyzing each situation and plays to get an understanding to play optimal in all occasions. The results are quite good!
I have been reading Silent Reqeuim's storm article alot and it is very good and I recommend you all to read it through.
Any thoughts guys?
The list looks decent. I disagree with running just 1 flash of insight and reset + turnabout in the side!
@Sepharus: I saw you list. How do you feel with just 2 Turnabout maindeck and what was the reason for running the quantity?
Here a leave my actual list running cryptic command md for discussion. In a few weeks i have a very big tournament and i wanna win it with this deck!
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
4 Cunning Wish
3 High Tide
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze
4 Impulse
2 Peer Through Depths
4 Brainstorm
3 Turnabout
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
9 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Flash of Insight
1 Polluted Delta
2 Opt
2 Cryptic Command
SB: 1 High Tide
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Hunting Pack
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Moment's Peace
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Meditate
Critics and comments are very needed and valuated!
THX!!
Would be nice to hear why you disagree so we can get some discussion about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Your list looks good. What is the purpouse with two cryptics? Is it against CB? If it is, I would rather consider playing grips in the board since you are playing green.
Have you tried running four Peer Through Depths instead of the two Opts and two PtD?
I run the 2 turnabouts because 3 is an stupid number. i prefer to delay my op, or to draw cards that provide solution for MANY situations, repeal deal with a great amount of things, also cryptic command is the same thing and the other draw engine are far more important than turnabout.
again green splash for what? easy shortcuts like splashing and sorceries are for me ways of not dealing with other issues blabla i'm not discussing this, just saying if i can win or top 4-8 regularly so everyone else can do it also...
Peer through depths is like the useless card ever - now if someone is having a meltdown shushe and keep reading - why i think it's useless? well look into 5 cards when you don't have solutions because you prefer looking at the 5 in searching for combo when you want do deal with something and can't! and btw the damm card don't find land - big clue: high tide double the mana that islands produce (islands on mtg context: they are not some country on the Caribbeans with good beaches they are lands meaning produce currency - mana - to pay for other spells, and you can only play 1 per turn) - imagine how amazing it would be that every time we need to build and sculpt our hand with counter war with use peer and show cards like Mindbreak trap and etc our op could go around it easily blabla yes if you have more counters on your hand it might be good to show him that you don't have counters and after all you have them sure its a strategy but again rules of magic 101: hand size number is 7...
Solidarity can't be build to combo faster or whatever solidarity is a deck build to delay the game until it's favorable to kill, this is like when playing or not playing something since the turn 0 is relevant you are always thinking 2-3 turns ahead - but that might be easy to some people...
btw i am not a fan of an one of sb things it's inconsistent and fragile, and never in my whole live i would try to depend on an single card like cunning wish! damm 3 mana it's a lot for a tutor that rape my sb slots (if i play 4 wishes it will be my sb sluts LOL)...
other advice, mindbreak trap against non combo decks only works if you have cards like dispel counter decks well played will never counter war you like some mad dog chasing a van...
and that's it... this is my opinion but you probably should not listen to me...
I'll try you go for parts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Olesch
The reasons of my upset is comments some pages ago, basically it's related to a consistent flood that i suffered during some tournaments.
Cryptic command is a solution card. Now that i'm learning to play this deck i can get more fuel from my cantrip cards but i'm still winning very tigh. I mean: i'm in 2 life and i go off in the attack phase of my opo or in response to a "spark". This means that you have mill your opo and force him to draw. Sometimes both are a bit difficult. So, with CC (which gives me some tranquility) i can time walk my opo to go off more confortable. Repeal, didn't worked to me, but i can't completely disestimate it.
I tried 4 PtD and almost sucked. The main troulbe with Peer is that you can't keep a land. So you can get an useful spells but if you screw your self you'll never play it. I founded 2 a good number and i love to see it while i'm going off. So, Sepharus, i can't agree with you in this point.
I know that 2 opt may sound random but it's a good card...2 or 3 is the number.
I only want to use green for hunting pack and that's it. Sometimes it's so easy a small comb to get 4-5 beast 4/4, which stops gobbos and similars and win the other turn. Let's say that it's the fast way to win of solidarity.
On sideboard, you agree i'll include 2 dispel instead of 1 snap and 1 moment peace.
Why should we not listen to you? This forum is all about sharing experience to evolve as a magic player. There is also another thing and that is that your results speak for itself. There must be a reason to why you have accomplished thoose numbers in tourneys that you have done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
I really like your list, remember a while back in this thread I mentioned that I used your deck as the main build for me?
The reason that I made changes was due to my playtesting and my playstyle.
I have played different builds and tested them out in solo mode. I have sat up different scenarios such as going of turn four at latest, being able to combo off with protection, what if opponent has emrakul etc... there are a bunch of different scenarios. I have also studied which hands to mulligan and which to keep.
I agree that Peer Through Depths is crappy pre comboing, it can't find lands and you need to reveal the card. BUT during combo I feel that it is quite valuable. With all theese dig opportunities it is quite possible to go off without a Meditate. You have to weight the different positives and negatives against eachother.
I like Repeal alot. It is awesome to delay the game. Bounce Lackey, Goyf, Necataal CB etc.. But I don't like it att all when comboing off. Most of my playtesting I ended up drawing Repeal/Cryptic Command when comboing and they are quite dead cards. Well Cryptic can at worst be a cantrip but it is very mana heavy and I when tapping down my opponents team I usually use Turnabout. So the question is, are they worthy the spots? Well I can't really tell since I don't have that experience as you Seraphus. It might also be that I am playing your build wrong or have played to little with it. Please enlighten me :) I am glad to listen to your inputs.
The reason for me to include four Cunning Wish are due to the possibilities of a toolbox effect and it feels like the deck is more consistent during comboing and getting all the parts pre comboing. But there is a situation that I oftenly face. If you have three lands out and you don't have any more in your hand, you have a Cunning Wish and an Impulse in your hand. This will actually prevent me from going off in turn four if I don't go by luck and go with the wish in my opponents EOT getting a combo piece and then hope for drawing a land. You could also during your main phase turn four go for a Brainstorm and look for the fourth land but then you need to go off with three untapped lands and one tapped. It is a little bit tricky and I can understand your concernes in such a scenario. What do you other guys think about this scenario?
Seraphus, I am not dependant on Cunning Wish, it only ease the odds of drawing the combo cards. I would actually say that in some cases Solidarity is dependant on Cunning Wish and that is when you need to force the opponent to draw.
Regarding splash, I don't like it at all. But once again it is a choice of flavourand play style. I personally don't like hunting pack since it interfers with Meditate and it is to risky just to skip a turn(s) before going for the kill. Well of course you can go with it without playing Meditate :). If I would splash I would have gone with red for Volcanic Geyser or the new mythic rare card Comet Storm or wathever it is called. There you have an instant kill.
The thread has been a little dead with reasonable input lately, I think it is a pitty since there is alot to talk about with this deck
Regarding Repeal: lets assume that your are playing some match, looking at the dtb and established decks does any of those decks have an repeal target? (something that we can use to bounce?) the answer is that every single one has... now imagine this, repeal works efficiently on: zoo, junk, gw taxes, cb, merfolks, goblins, affinity (this one is rising), etc... You definitely agree that this list of decks pretty much mention at least 70-80% of the decks played everywhere so having some 30-20% of percentage where repeal isn't that much efficient is a very good price to pay...
Why repeal is good is based on the fact that you will have 2 effects from the use of it, you can get reed if some clock for instance in zoo nacatl forehead has written repeal... or imagine this counterbalance needs to stay all the time (not all but for arguing proposes lets simplify the thing) with 4 cmc - meaning be aware of cryptic command - and be aware at 3 for repeal... now imagine one of our worst macthups mono red burn, repeal is very good to deal with friends like goblin guide, that is our friend since it usually may give us some land, you can even levave one non land on top and another land on the second place and use repeal before triggered from the stupid goblin resolve, or if you know your first card and it's not a land use the same trick... 2 per 1 in the guide case 3-1... Now imagine other match like dredge, it can be very hard on us so bouncing the creatures even if they are tokens is the right call some time, plus it bounces tokens for 1 mana! damm after all the card is real good! lol kidding... The question of draw it midcombo is the why i only play 2 of it =P and probably it will be useful in the same way since the permanents will still be in play during combo...
The opt question is that it gives more one cmc drop to find land and still on the mid combo it give us a choice... look at this from this point: you use your opt pre comboing usual seeing an opt from an opt is good because you fill your grave to FoI and reduce the cards in your library (now here is where the percentage enters but that is like bla bla bla but sometimes works lol), it's not linear the way solidarity combos out without the amount of 1 cmc drops the deck isn't consistence... imagine this you fail land drop on second turn if you do than your hand is full of spell cards (obviously).
without the amount of 1 cmc cards you would handle the situation very badly since you have to wait until the second land show up by some miracle right? no? no because you have brainstorm? and if you didn't find the second mana there? or the third later on? opt doesn't fate seal your top card like brainstorm that only turns out to be extremely effective when combine with fetchlands... Now when deck building or modifying some decklist we have to have some rules in mind like the synergy between cards, returning to the example of mana screw, imagine you have only one land and you use opt draw land and have repeal on hand now you can bounce a 1 cmc cardand possible draw the third land.
But focusing and summing it up the amount of 1 cmc cards need to cover all the needs of the deck and it does repeal, remand and opt, brainstrom and impulse are a very good pre combo draw that usually need to be played at crucial time and that make the deck very well equipped in terms of cmc curve. opt is by definition on this deck a necessary evil...
Sure wish is a very useful card, but the thing is i don't what to use my wishes to start combo i prefer to use my wishes to resolve some situation, whenever i need to untap or draw and the cards are not in my hand the investment and risks associated to the use of the cunning wish as an desperate measure. The use of resources so rich in terms of options like cunning wish in an "easy" way to start combo it is like using a good engineer to do a trowel's work, they are both professional and good but each one of them have their abilities, and i am sure that you agree with me if i say that an engineer is quite more qualified to other, more elaborated, work... Other thing is with wish as an filter to find high tide your chances to use the deck as an 3rd turn kill are reduce to nothing - to someone who even thinks about refute my quote i am adding this: the turn 3 kill is based on the use of snap. Solidarity can be a very consistent deck during combo without the abusive use of wishes, although it requires an giant investment of training not only with the deck but also the knowledge of rules and things like that... As the choice of the use of impulse vs cunning wish in eot i just have one thing to say: impulse and the card we might need already are in the deck not outside filling the slot of other cards, and once again the use of cards with one cmc gives more chances to see the card we are looking for and it reduces the number of cards in our library...
Conclusion on wish: use it to solve situations not to create situations because that means you have another essential card that if it doesn't resolve you have to fight for its resolution, after all when you use wish as finisher or tap effect you will have a great number of cards in hand...
yep, but you can consistently do all the actions you mention with just 2 repeal??
in one game? sure not thats why the deck has some others spells, and the necessity of the use of repeal doesn't mean that i have to do all that... I didn't focused all things on repeal, in the other hand i show to you through out my arguments the synergy of the card, that doesn't mean i have to do this all in one game...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
@Seraphus: Everything you write makes sence and I totally agree with you. Have you tried running four repeals instead of the two split Cryptic/Repeal?
It might be that I am to focused in going off at latest turn four, but with your build I am oftenly having problems getting a High Tide.
What are your analysis with your build in terms of hands to keep and to mulligan?
One thing that I am generally having problems with is to when and how to cast FoI. Well from the graveyard there is no problem, it is more when to cast it from the hand. I guess you just cantrip it? When I reveal it to an Impulse or a Brainstorm (during comboing) I oftenly put it back. It also feels expensive going 3 mana for a cantrip during combo, but it is priceless once you have it in your graveyard.
@Olesch: I often just use FoI as a cantrip, or as a half impulse. Many times your in no need to combo by turn 4.
Biggest reason for me to run 2 FoI in the deck is not to increase the amount of times you end up with FoI in hand, but to let you mill less cards with BF in order to find it during combo so you can get full value out of it for just 2 mana. (ideal, demonic tutor and stack the deck).
When I have it in hand, and got other things to play (remand on there spells in order to time walk, play a more efficient cantrip like brainstorm, impulse etc) I just let it sit in the hand. Playing FoI with x= 4-8 during combo can be crucial for the success of the combo.
regarding cryptic and repeal. They play different roles with the main purpose to handle counterbalance. Cryptic can work as a turnabout during combo and tap your opponents creatures, in order for the regular turnabouts to be untap your lands. Many are the times that the Counter/draw a card option have been a valid use.
Repeal on the other hand mostly play the role of cantriping against opposing Wild Nacatles and similar creatures. Depending on the meta, they need for repeal / cryptic are different. In general cryptic command seems like the better options, cause it gives you more options, but an even split like Seraphus runs might be a good option in a diverse meta with an big show up of counterbalance (otherwise I believe only 2 cards MD against counterbalance are enough).
Nice to see more swedes playing Solidarity. That up the odds of me playing the funniest matchup of all times. Solidarity vs Solidarity. omnomnom
@cjva: I think solidarity is a very fun deck to play, I like it alot. When you play the deck, is it common that you BF yourself or is it just emergency cases when you have a BF in hand and no card draw? When I play, BFing myself is the very very last exit.
I have never played FoI with X more than 1 from my hand, never. Maybe I am to scared to put mana into it. Also, when I am in the possition and choosing which cards to put back and reshuffle with Brainstorm I oftenly choose FoI when I have it in hand.
Maybe we will meet in the future in a tourney, you never know :)
Cjva pretty much resumes the answer on the FoI point...
As the lack of High tide: well the thing is if you have the capability of using "delayers" like repeal and remand that draw and are effective the high tide soon will appear... imagine that you repealed a nacatl at turn two and turn 3 you have remand and opt/brainstorm you hit the 3rd land drop and pass so when your opponent plays a spell you will have the capability to draw two cards - even if you have a impulse + opt or bstorm.
On matches here the game go long normally you will not have to find high tide quickly... other thing that delayers provides the deck on against fasts matches is you make enough land drops to use reset as a start to combo and don't forget that if you run snap like i do you have another 2 two cmc cards that produce mana post-high tide.
@Seraphus: I would like to know what your thoughts and analysis are on which hands to hold or muligan.
It's really difficult for me to tell you what hand to keep, it depends on the match up... but normally when you have opt or/and brainstorm + two lands it's a keep...
Regarding bad much ups: pox, dark horizons and similars, coul spell pierce replace dispel? It also servers on the control match up-
I really don't think that those decks are bad matches... since FoI, repeal, cryptic and post boarder snap... The important things are: 1 never fail land drop; 2 (postboarded) be careful of the grave hate leaving the 4th tide on the sb; 3 remand is very helpful = to time walk; 4 confidant is really hard so repeal is better... Summing it up: it's not a bad match up you have to be careful as any of the matches we play - we play the most skillful deck on the format (if someone whats to argue that with me go ahead i don't care, and whatever arguments you want to share i'll keep saying that the decks is one of the most skillful decks ever, since me saying that the deck is skillful required and other person saying that it isn't do not add value to this thread lets move on)...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
As dispel replaced by spell pierce the thing is that against control matches or matches where the game go to late game the pierce isn't that good (vs ctrl decks the high tide is a factor to consider since they doubled their mana), why is than dispel so important? well it's related to a few things:
1 it's as good as pierce vs storm decks (yes i am aware that it didn't counter duress but duress didn't stop you from playing spells nor pierce counters any ritual)
2 it counter red elemental blast and pyroblast each pierce can't normally counter since they let mana open to pay it...
3 it counters a instant spell (not giving any alternative) so lets call it a pure counter
4 since it is a pure counter the obligation that it provides to your op to play some spell to counter it or to overpass it increases your Mindbreak trap effectiveness... (this is the most important subject for me)
5 it counter the most fierce Fire spells (fireblast, bolt...)
As i mention, i can speak in terms of my build, since it takes repeal and foi so i don't have problems with this kind of decks...
So you would mull so your hand would contain at least two lands and a dig spell? You don't see that it is neccesary for the start hand to contain any combo pieces?
I agree that this deck is one of the hardest to play. You need to be a couple of turns in advance at the same time as playing the turn you are in and think on exactly what you are doing.
Seraphus, I played yesterday with your build against TES, CB and Zoo. Actually your build is really good and as you said, DELAY the opponent makes everything. I think I have been to focused on going of at latest turn four and tried to build my deck for that.
When I played against CB, it felt like it lasted forever. You REALLY REALLY need to think everything through to make the right decisions. I also ended up in BFing myself to be able to stack the deck with FoI and that gave me the win. But it was alot of thinking because you actually need to think about how it is supposed to be stacked and think a couple of draws further, not just the top four cards. In this case he had a Spel Snare left in his hand so there are alot of things to consider.
I would also like to acknowledge what you said before Seraphus, CB is a pain in the ass to play against but if they dont have a clock on the table we have all the time in the world to determine how we would like to play and then everything is in our favour if played correct! But it is not easy, there is alot of thinking involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
Yes I would keep a hand that had non of the combo cards if it have fetch and brainstorm, if it have fow + remand or repeal + 2 lands; and other examples... Although it would depend on the match that i was facing...